Stosh

Your son has a hearing disability, not a leadership disability. I wouldn't have any problem with him in my troop. There are SM's out there that feel the same as me. Hopefully you have one in your area. Over the years I have had many boys with disabilities, but it hasn't held them back. Standard anti-bullying requirements apply to all boys in my troop and they are all fully aware that the bully will be removed from the troop long before the victim is. What I have seen in the vast majority of these kinds of issues in my troop is that once the disability is known and understood, they are often accepted with no problem whatsoever. I hope your boy finds such a troop. Stosh

Yeah, it's kinda like the patrol-method's financing. If the patrol-method promotes the small group dynamics, why shouldn't they have their own "treasury". Stosh

as someone who admittedly struggles with accounting, Im not grasping how NOT having ISAs works. I get that all the money goes into one fund...what I dont get is come time for camp payments how do you know how much Johnny raised and how much Tommy still needs? And once you have that figured out, if a boy needs to "borrow" against the troop, by what calculation do you determine that he has worked off that debt so to speak? It seems to me that if you know how much a boy has contributed or how much he still needs to contribute, somehow you are still going thru the motions of an ISA but just not calling it that. of course, this is why I wont be a treasurer, cuz clearly it works for some people out there but I just dont get it The lady did not elaborate on that point, but from what I was getting from the discussion, if the boys are all working hard on fundraising and the efforts only raise half the money needed and there was a boy who simply could not afford to pay his personal half, he could "borrow" the money and "payback" with future fundraisers. Basically the reason why the words are in "quotes" is because they were doing a wink,wink, the boy was busting his butt, but the fundraising efforts came up short. That does not mean they aren't going to do what they have to do to make sure the scout gets to camp. If he continues to bust his butt in future years he will in fact be "paying back" his loan and if the need comes up again next year he'll be able to "borrow" again. She seemed to indicate that ALL the boys need to get to camp. She didn't want to deny a boy that chance if the fundraising efforts were not successful. There wouldn't be any accounting in the process, just keep an eye on the boy and if he's making all the effort as the rest of the boys, there would be a "camp loan" provided that wouldn't be paid back as long as the boy kept up as much effort at fundraising as everyone else. Of course that is not very "objective" and with such a subjective approach it leaves a lot of holes in the process. That's why it is going to be left in the hands of the committee to maintain an awareness of how the boys are doing with the fundraisers. If one boy doesn't show up for the fundraisers and yet has no money for camp, then the committee can make it's own decision on whether or not they fund his expenses. I'll be up to the boy to show effort in order to be considered for the "loans". Stosh

There are a lot of places around the country that needs scouts like this besides Chicago! Stosh

Gotta be a bit careful with that idea. My boys decide by patrol what camp they attend regardless of any connection to finances. If they raised money to get to a camp a long ways away, they should, by patrol get a bit more of the pie. I don't see having a troop competition that dictates against the autonomy of a patrol using the patrol-method. However, such incentive to allocate by patrol members to the patrol fund would be okay with me. I.e. patrol raised 75% of the funds and the other patrol 25%. Then if half the money is allocated to individual patrol accounts, 75% goes to patrol 1 and 25% to patrol 2. That's fair in my book. That way if patrol 1 is planning on a Philmont trip and they get out and bust their buns to get there, the "reward" is in the % of profits of the fundraiser. Stosh

My was set to go with the red with black. I went down to the Scout Shop and they didn't have any in inventory, I had picked up the last two. So they special ordered 3 more. They called me a couple of days later and I was told that item was discontinued and no longer available. Stosh

Most planners tend to rely on the same-old, same-old because it worked in the past. There's nothing wrong with running a standard potluck with a theme, i.e. Spam, or bacon, or whatever. Then the boys can sample a bunch and vote on the best. It would also put a major variety on the plate for each boy as well. Creativity isn't a strong point with BG planners. And what about the magician? Again? How does one make a magician disappear? I got a last minute call from one of the packs in the area that got a magician cancellation at the last minute. I packed up my Civil War reenactment kit and hauled it down and did a wing-it presentation. I told the CM to signal me when I should wrap up. I can be as long winded as the next guy. He said he would signal me at about 30 minutes. I said great. An hour later he finally gave me the high five. Then amongst the groans of disappointment, the boys got back to the program. How much did it cost the pack for that program? Nothing, it just cost me my Good Turn for the day. Themed potluck, freebie program, free hall access from the Am Legion, admission charges, no cost to anyone and everyone had a great time. A Scout is Thrifty. The only cost incurred by the Pack was the cost of the awards, patches, pins, and nice arrow wall plaques. Yes, an inexpensive, nice and fun BG is possible. Stosh

Why will it never happen? What's to keep a person from doing it, not for advancement credit, but because of the value of what one would learn? It really irks me at time when scouts aspire to do nothing more than just the minimum, no more, no less attitude towards advancement. Even though that's a BSA policy rule, how many Eagle scouts out there brag about having done the minimum, no more, no less? OA does the overnighter thingy as a token to such an effort, but why not do a real one? Not for credit, but just for your own benefit. By the way, there is no BSA rule forbidding it. You don't need 2-deep leadership to go along, just do a plan, map out your location, get parent's permission, and then just go. You could even decide to take along your cell phone in case of an emergency. The nice thing about it, it's your vigil, YOU decide what is necessary for it to be successful. If you need a starting point in your planning, look up the First Class requirement from the early years of Scouting. Stosh

I am willing to go so far as to promote IPA's. Individual Patrol Accounts. Let the boys compete, in hours maybe, and get their patrol accounts up and then they can buy the nicer equipment for the patrol, make sure their members get to camp, make a donation to the NSP, etc. That way their team efforts can be recognized as a whole. Stosh

Just got back from the boys' troop meeting. We're a new troop and we're struggling to come up with the first year's summer camp funding. The boys picked out a nice patrol-method camp and are all excited, but of course, the cost is $260/boy. We're a new troop and the only money available is the money given by the Pack from the boys' ISA's. As the boys were discussing what they would need to do for fundraising one of the parents spoke up and inquired about the ISA accounts from the Pack and that we needed to go and ask them about it. I had the check in my pocket with the money all broken out for each scout. It ranged from $70 to $375 in the accounts. Obviously some of the boys worked harder than others. I was anticipating a rough go for the discussion and with the parents there I figured out I was going to have my hands full. Yet, the boys had been discussing what they needed to do to raise money AS A TROOP. Finally the most vocal parent got up and much to my chagrin, it was the parent whose boy hand the most on the slip of ISA breakdown. She was adamant about it and insisted that ALL the money go into the troop funds and this whole ISA issue was not to be part of the troop's tradition. She went on to say that if a boy needed money he could "borrow" against the troop and "pay back" by working at fundraisers, but everyone would be working together to get everyone to camp. Wow, did I dodge a bullet. She volunteered to be the committee treasurer and that she would take the position as long as there were no ISA's. She didn't want to hassle with the extra bookkeeping. I asked the boys what they thought of that and they unanimously agreed it was a good idea. Stosh

Nice picture, but that style of necker is no longer available for purchase. Stosh

We don't do dues in our troop. The boys work together to raise money for all members. Registration costs are collected up just before rechartering. In our case with the new troop, money is due before they join. Stosh

As MattR points out there is a leadership "gap" in the middle years and I think this ties to Barry's comments on burn out. It's easier to not rock the boat than take on yet another challenge to change. One of the major reasons I use the POR structure I use is because, unlike elections, there is not any term limit to get this accomplished. Some boys do well with leadership sprints and can buckle down and focus for the short haul and get the requirement finished in good order. On the other hand there are others who struggle and would rather pace themselves over a longer period of time and it may take them a year to accumulate 6 months worth of leadership. I would rather a boy pace themselves than burn out or just make it to the end and then take a reprieve from the responsibilities of any POR for the next 6 month term. One of the major skills of leadership that often times gets overlooked is the ability to pace themselves. As adults we have a tendency to make things worse in this area as well. Boy get elected to SPL. Now it's show time. The full focus of the SM and other adults are trained directly on him and his performance. He jumps out of the starting blocks full steam ahead. But he can't keep that pace for very long. Instead 2-3 months into the term, things start turning sour and by the time 6 months are up, the SMC is focused on: "Gee you started out great but then you quit half way through! What happened?" Of course the boy is going to speak up and say, "It was because all the adults were hounding me to death all along the way, including you the SM, and after a while, I just sort of figured it out that it wasn't worth it." Barry hits this one right on the head. Scouting is supposed to be fun, when that doesn't happen, the boy disappears. It's a very fine and delicate line between getting by and burning out. With youth of this age, that line is VERY delicate and needs to be the focus of everything the boy does. I think a lot of adults justify their behavior in this area by blaming the "fumes" rather than taking a serious look at how much they contribute to the problem in this age group. This is why I don't press hard on elections and POR terms, but can pace the boys out at an earlier age so as to not burn them out. Maybe all an 11 year old can do is call up the school to find out when open swim is and how much it costs. For him that's a major accomplishment. Celebrate that and then relax. Just because one has found a go-getter, don't go adding extra pressure on him. Let him decide what the next step is on his terms. Stosh

Totally agree, Barry. You are fortunate to have a broad range of scouts at different levels of development. How you develop those skills work well for your program and that is a good thing. I on the other hand, have 5 boys in a brand new troop and they are all 11 years old. I can't wait for 2 years for them to develop their leadership skills to the level of your boys. I need it now. So I have boys doing leadership far beyond their "maturity" level. Some naturally come by it easily, others are more reserved and unsure. With time that will change. I could, for a couple of years, treat my troop as Webelos III, but the tradition of adult led would become engrained and I would then spend the rest of my tenure here reversing the monster I created. So, I start my untrained, inexperienced boys right out of the blocks with assumed leadership. A few tricks there and there to get them started and then let them adjust to their own personal styles. If I postpone leadership opportunities of the POR for 2 years waiting for them to mature, I miss a ton of opportunities. I don't set the boys up to fail, but I do provide opportunities for them to consider. Last week we talked about fun activities they could do. One boy suggested swimming. His buddies laughed because in Wisconsin, the last thing anyone is thinking about is swimming. Instead of telling the boy it's -10 outside, I tossed out the think tank process for them to come up with some ideas of what possibly might be some options for going swimming. The boy suggesting the swimming said there are indoor pools in town. Then I suggested the high school pool 5 blocks from where we meet as a troop has a pool. I suggested the boy might want to call the high school find out when there is open swimming and how much it cost. He'll be reporting back tonight on what he has found out. Another boy suggested camping at the council camp and he's checking on availability and costs. These are boys that have yet to earn their Scout rank. I do not suggest outings, but the boys do. If at this age they can't think through the how of the process. From me, they get questions to provoke their thinking processes and they can draw their own conclusions as to what the next step has to be. I toss out ideas when they are really stumped, but that is not very often. If given a chance to think, they usually come up with some good options. When the boy come back with the campout information, my next question will be, "What about getting there? Everyone meet there or are you going to carpool? What about meals? etc. These are questions adults will naturally ask before any event. Why can't these boys develop that skill right from the beginning? I'm thinking that by the time these boys are 13, I won't have to ask those questions anymore. If some new scouts are doing planning, the older scouts will be able to ask those questions for me. If adults know how it works and never tell the boys, they will never learn to lead and think like an adult. So this begs the question, when does one begin that process? For me, it's the sooner, the better. If teaching leadership with the EDGE method, the quicker one gets to the hands-on part, the more engaged the boy will be in the learning process. It was interesting to note that when I have the boys demonstrate their skill on TF-FC requirements, I tell them that I know nothing about tying a square knot for example. So the boys have a routine, they stand up, introduce themselves, tell me what they are about to teach, demonstrate it, then help me tie the knot. That simple formula the boys all know pretty well now. One of the boys was looking forward into the upper rank advancements, and said, "Hey, that's the EDGE method." Within 2-3 weeks, all my boys will be able to fulfill the expectations of the Instructor POR and yet they are only 11 years old. By the time they are 13, they will be old-hat with that process. I know from 40 years of working with youth that they are far more capable of leadership than we give them credit for. Stosh

Neither have I. But for some reason there are those out there that seem to think it's necessary. Stosh

"When a Scout does nothing in a POR I'm inclined to put much of the blame on the Scoutmaster for failing to motivate the Scout." I don't. The influence of the SM is far less effective than the peer influence of the other boys. As SM in a boy-led program, it is my responsibility to offer up multiple suggestions for the boy to consider. But the final decision on what he does must come from him or the job he does will be far from satisfactory. I create opportunities, what the boys do with them is up to them. As far as my Expectations go. I have only one and every Webelos boy that comes into my troop gets the "I expect you to Eagle" speech, but it's up to you. As a matter of fact, the #1 complaint I receive, especially from the younger boys is that I DON'T tell them what they have to do. There parents do that, their teachers do that, their pastors do that and for the first time in their lives, they are in control of their destiny and don't know what to do with it. Once they realize that, the suggestions start to make sense. Stosh

"So he turns this list into the BOR which they glance over and say. Nope, sorry, the APL patch on your shirt doesn't qualify you for the POR requirement." To restate the comment, the BOR of course granted the boy fulfillment of the POR, there was no question that the patch on his shirt had nothing to do with showing leadership in multiple POR areas during a 6 month period. As I stated, the boy became Eagle based on his performance in the various POR's he was not assigned to. Yet he never was elected to SPL or PL. To tell a boy that because his PL elected buddy took him on as APL and he wasn't going to get any advancement credit in the next 6 months isn't an option in my troop. If the boy wants advancement and didn't get POR through the traditional method, his initiative and perseverance was recognized by the BOR as a totally acceptable alternative. In his SMC we covered what he had done and I had no problem signing off SMC, Scout Spirit, and POR fulfillment under these circumstances. The "fall out" from this boy's actions motivated a lot of other boys to step up and start doing leadership within the troop as well. Boy's lacking POR took on "Instructor" for the younger boys to the point where they were standing in line to teach. How many times have we heard the older boys didn't help out the younger boys. Well, I don't seem to have that problem. With others complaining about older boy lack of involvement, I have boy volunteering. No, it's not for 6 months at a time, but here and there, filling in where needed and helping out not only their patrols, but crossing lines to help out the other patrols, especially the younger ones who seem to offer the most opportunity to do so. Communication between elected POR's and ad hoc POR boys has increased a lot. If a PL can't make an activity, why wouldn't the APL not get credit for doing the work on that activity in his absence. Acting PL and PL require the same amount of responsibility on the part of the boy. If an APL who isn't getting credit for advancement, when the QM can't make an activity, he steps up and does the work. Yet he doesn't get credit, whereas the absent QM does? That really doesn't add up in my "Stosh Handbook" book. Remember, I was the SM who was replaced because I "expected too much leadership from the boys." It was the parents who complained, the most of the boys were having a great time. The only boys that complained, were those who didn't do anything in the troop and were not getting elected to POR's and weren't advancing. Parents of lazy scouts will always have a problem with that. The handicapped boy was 34 years old, working on his Eagle, the Council sent him to me to help get him his Eagle. Out of all the SM's in the council, why would I be the chosen one? Because all my boys were basically running the troop, it left me and my ASM plenty of time to work with him on his special needs. He was really a nice guy and the boys thought it was great to have him part of the troop. I have no idea what happened to him after I was let go. In the 4 years I was with that troop, the only adults that worked with the boys were me (SM) and the parent of three of the boys (ASM) who also happened to be an Eagle Scout with 2 palms as I mentioned before. If I or the ASM couldn't make an activity, a parent would step up to provide 2-deep adult leadership. Stosh

Yeah, "BACK WHEN I WAS A KID..." Literally,... I still remember learning how to sharpen an axe, how to prepare for chopping and not just looking at, but actually sharpening a knife, too. Everything was hands on back then, not diagrams, charts and instructor's demonstrations. We didn't have bow saws back then at camp. Of course if you needed an axe cover, you just went over to the garbage, pulled out last night's bean can, popped both sides of the open end with your church key, stomped on it and tied it on. End of discussion. I never cut myself on an axe, but I have cut myself trying to cut an 18" length of garden hose and then try to put on a bow saw blade. I may have just barely survived my childhood axe and sheath knife adventures, but today's bow saws may be the death of me yet. Stosh

"Why do you assume the BOR judges the scout differently than you?" - there's no emoticon for "dripping with sarcasm", of course the BOR was please with what this boy did. "Why would a competent SM allow a scout to consider his day to day normal duties to be considered for POR credit when nothing in the hand book supports it?" - this boy's normal duties was to be a member of his patrol, that's all. "Your making this scout suffer for your defiance against a system "you" don't like." - First of all, this is only a suggestion I put out there for the boys who need POR and don't get elected into any "real" POR's due to the fact that they may not be popular enough to win some kind of election. I have had boys take two and even three terms (one scout) to get 26 weeks worth of effort. And when popular elected boy sit on their hands doing nothing except garnering POR credit for doing nothing, these boys step up and get the job done. While I don't expect any of my boys to do such things, it is an alternative to a creative energetic leader to get credit for effort put forth. I find it draws out servant leadership, creative thinking and problem solving for boys choosing to take this option. It also puts a bit of incentive in the elected POR boys to actually do their jobs so that someone else doesn't step in and get credit for it. Boys holding elected POR's have first chance to do their job. If they don't do it, it's fair game for any one else to step up and get the job done. As far as the example I have outlined, it was done by one of my quieter boys that never got elected to anything, yet went on to Eagle at age 15 just before his 16th birthday. After he received his Eagle he refused the traditional JASM position and instead became TG for the NSP which he did for two years before aging out. He was never elected to SPL or PL positions, but filled in for them on various occasions. "Did you warn his parents before you set their son on this trail?" - His dad was my ASM, Eagle Scout with 2 palms. I'm thinking he might have suggested some of the activities behind the scenes for his son, but he didn't say a word ever about what was going on. I had another boy who was socially withdrawn, but came with an opening prayer and closing devotion for every meeting he attended. After about 6 months, the PLC decided he should be wearing the Chaplain's Aide patch on his shirt. Once he got the patch, he just kept doing what he had always enjoyed doing. There is no term limits for CA. After I was let go by that troop, I saw the boy at a camporee. He told me he was now SPL, but I noticed he still wore the CA patch. No boy is ever expected to take this alternative route to fulfilling the POR requirement, it's just an option for those who might otherwise get passed by or hasn't the skills or opportunity to do the job consistently for a full term. I have had PL's not request signing off on their POR requirement because they got elected, but then in the middle of their term played basketball/baseball or something that took them away from the troop for a couple of months. If they did not get reelected as PL, they used this alternative suggestion to fill in a couple of months worth of work to honestly fulfill their POR expectations. If the boy does the work, I sign off on the requirement. How HE defines that work is up to him. I have never had a boy define that as doing nothing for 6 months while wearing a patch. Stosh By the way, I have had handicapped boys earn POR in this manner. I wrote the whole process of what they could accomplish off as a SM project.

Been to Buffalo Bill, nice camp, no water sports, but they did do canoeing MB in glacial water. Boys were not impressed. Nice mess hall, bring your own tents. Wednesday off to tour Yellowstone or Cody. We went to Cody on Wednesday and got in the Buffalo Bill/Winchester museum and a rodeo. We went to Yellowstone on weekend following so we got two days there. We stopped in the Black Hills both coming and going to camp. Wisconsin has a number of camps, Decorah, okay, but nothing impressive, has a mess hall, Phillips, large, full organized program with mess hall. Nice water activities, small cabins instead of tents. But the camp the boys always wanted to go to was Camp Frieland Leslie. Huge lake owned by the camp, large sites, and 100% patrol method (patrol cooking in the site). No mess hall. Friday was a campwide activity that the boys really enjoyed. Plenty of water activities, sailing, fishing, canoeing, boating, swimming, etc. Modern showers. Tents are not set up when you arrive! Full MB program. The boys unanimously voted to go to that camp every year after trying it out once. The only comparison I have to that camp was the kind of camp I went to as a scout back in the '60's. I didn't know they still existed. Hope this helps. Stosh

The requirement says a boy has to SERVE in a POR for 6 months. Well, Johnny gets selected as APL for his 6 month term. Yet when it comes time for his BOR he walks in with his APL on his sleeve and the eyebrows all come up! So he gets questioned on it. He simply states that because he was APL he had lots of time on his hands and so he divided up his 6 months into 26 weeks. Numbers a piece of paper with 26 lines and fills them all in. He organized summer camp, registered the troop, lined up all the MB and SERVED as SPL for the week. That goes into line #1. Then the QM was going to be absent from the Spring Camporee so he got all the equipment for the patrols lined up for the weekend and filled in line #2. There were three service projects he organized for the troop on various Saturdays, so he filled in #3, #4, #5 as SPL. He got 5 lessons for the NSP lined up and taught, First Aid, knots, took them out and identified 10 plants and 10 animals on a hike, and got them to the pool for swimming. #6, #7, #8, #9, #10 filled in as Instructor. Then his PL missed 6 meetings due to school sports and so he filled in during his absence. That's #11, #12, #13, #14, #15, #16. The Webelos boys needed to come and visit the troop meeting, so he lined up a special program for them when they came to visit. #17 was marked as a SM Special Project. With no Chaplain's Aide available, he organized a prayer/devotion time for the winter campout, #18. The scribe didn't make it to the PLC so he took minutes for that and handed them into the scribe at the next meeting #19. A couple of boys were wanting to take a Citizenship in the Nation MB and so he dug through the supply cabinet to find enough pamphlets for the boys, #20. The Troop Website was out of date and so he sat down and put next year's calendar up on the site, #21. He noticed the QM didn't have an inventory list of equipment and the patrols were complaining about lack of supplies, so he inventoried the storage room and troop trailer and handed in an updated inventory list to the QM, and a list of missing/lost/short items to the CM treasurer to look into. #22. Knowing he was 4 weeks short, he asked the SM if he could organize and teach the leadership of the PLC in the Green Bar Bill Patrol Method leadership instruction as a special project. The SM thought it might be a good supplement to their NYLT training and approved, #23, #24, #25 and #26. So he turns this list into the BOR which they glance over and say. Nope, sorry, the APL patch on your shirt doesn't qualify you for the POR requirement. Yeah, right. That will sell! This is why the POR patch means nothing to me! It's not what position you hold, it's the work you do that makes the man. Stosh

Having handled knives all my life I have found that some of the teaching of BSA lacking when it comes to knives. We all know the proper way of handing off a folding/lock blade knife using the "Thank You/You're Welcome" technique. Because we ban sheath knives we have no way of learning the proper way of handing off fixed blade knives. But of course we use them nonetheless. Even if banned, the fixed blade knife is still used. I use the example of two boys prepping food for a meal. One paring/butcher/bread knife, two boys... After cutting up the potatoes, how does the boy pass it off to the boy cutting carrots? Handle first? Blade first? Put it back in the sheath/guard? What I do is let the boys think about it for a moment. On occasion there will be the boy who figures it out the first time. It's really easy. The first boy lays the knife down and the second boy picks it up. Where in the training is that taught? It works with a folding blade/lock blade knife as well. With our aversion to sheath knives we endanger boys using fixed blades! Well, if one teaches how to use kitchen knives properly, are they not also being taught to use sheath knives properly? Sheath knives for fishing? A fillet knife is no different than a sheath knife. We say it's okay, but we don't teach how the fixed blade knife is different than the folding or locking knife. Maybe it is time we overcome our prejudices, fears and angst, and start teaching the boys to do it correctly. Stosh

What make one think that Eagle Scout is nothing more than any other participation award? If you show up, do the requirements, you get the award. How is that any different than you show up, play the game, you get the award? It has nothing to do with winning the game, playing harder than the next guy, or accomplishing something special, like winning a championship. I get a bit off center when people make out EAGLE as if it is something more than just a participation award, rank attainment. It's great that you showed up for the big game, but even if you lose, you still showed up for the big game. Nothing more, nothing less. Stosh

Instead of following along with some adult's idea of a service project, I would think it would be far better to have the Eagle candidate take the lead, organize and run 10 service projects, none of which require a whole lot of paperwork. At the board of review they could ask what their favorite two projects were and what they did to organize and run the project. Far more hands on, a lot more benefit to the community and far less stupid paperwork for everyone involved. This would also require the Eagle candidates to generate service projects that the other scouts in the troop/patrol could benefit by getting service project hours for advancement. Stosh

With fake knives, the real danger of cutting oneself isn't as obvious. I have never used anything but a real knife to teach it's usage. I emphasize that there are no second chances and a major cut is a real problem. That fear of injury goes a long way to insure a focus on the work being done. Even cutting soap requires a certain sense of vigilance that may fall to the wayside if using a "safe" fake knife. Stosh