Stosh

If one were to push the mentoring to the next level, YES the SPL is going to be able to handle everything. He is the PL to the PL's. In an 8 patrol troop he should have his focus 100% on the PL's and helping them be successful. The PL's handle their 6-7 boys on their own. Too often than not, the SPL spreads himself wide and shallow trying to handle everything in the troop and basically nothing gets done and the PL's are sitting around doing nothing. Narrow and deep is the answer. The SPL needs to develop great PL's and the problems of the patrol will never get to him in the first place. The only time one hears "Go ask the SPL", it had better be two PL's discussing a problem. If it is not, then the two scouts should be saying "Go ask the PL". As I have mentioned many times before, a highly trained professional teacher has difficulty maintaining order in a classroom of 30 students, yet we expect a novice leader with no training in crowd control to handle troops of 40+ boys? It is doomed before one starts. One SPL handles 8 PL's. 8 PL's handle patrols of 8 boys. 64+ boys in the troop and NO ONE has responsibility to mentor/guide/help/support more than 8 boys. That's doable in any group! One has PL's use them and let the SPL be senior mentor to them and let the PL's handle their patrols. The SPL to "runs the troop" is titular head of a troop-method troop. Titular because it's a title only and with the bigger troops, it takes more than one leader to make it successful. If there ever was a need for an SPL in my troop, it was always decided by the PL's, never a general election. The PL's decide who it is that will be mentoring/helping/supporting them. Nothing worse than 3-5 PL's and a popularly elected SPL that doesn't know anything about helping the PL's be successful. And as to the last line of the quote: NO, if done properly, there is no reason for any adult leaders to be there. Stosh

If one thinks the knee socks get a ribbing, try leg wraps that were used by BSA prior to 1940. My boys are always giving me a hard time because I use them all the time. Yes, they are warm, but I'll take the heat over the ticks any day. My boys quit commenting when I pull my needle nose pliers out of the leggings every time they find a tick. Ever wonder why the military tucks their pants into their boots? I don't. Well, unless you have boots or socks to tuck pant legs into, the leggings work great. It's also a great way to get the boys to tuck their shirts into their pants, too. Ticks are a wonderful learning experience for the boys. Always use visual aids. Tick + SM's pliers = lesson learned. Stosh

To me it's a bit of "follow the money" kind of thinking. Follow the Level of Authority (LOA) as used in the structure of most groups. I don't have a problem with "ask the SPL" being boy-led, but that always begs the question of has one gone far enough? In the example given, the SPL was "accountable" to the SM which makes the LOA go up one more layer to the real leader. Unless the PL is accountable to himself and is responsible for taking on the decision making in a patrol (patrol-method) then there is no real personal responsibility left in his hands. To me having to answer to the "next level up" isn't leadership, it's simply following the rules which ends up being the controlling authority. This is why I operate with as few rules as possible and leave the mistakes and subsequent responsibility in the hands of the PL's. The SPL and SM are there to help pick up the pieces and mentor for the next foray the PL takes on with his patrol. After all any of the scout leaders in the troop (PL's) that haven't made mistakes and learned to deal with it, will never be able to mentor others who do. Stosh

One of the things I have learned from the forums, not just this one, is that what is presented and what is absorbed isn't always the same thing. What works for one may not work for another, but it might offer a "try" that could be attempted to see if it helps in their situations. I try to keep my comments from being taken personally by others by using the third person pronouns as much as possible and stay clear of the second person pronouns which offer a harsher tone. I don't have a problem with the ways others do things in their troops, it seems to be working for them. However, when one finds themselves in a difficult situation any suggestions from others, either good or bad, seems to allow for some alternatives to the problems they are facing. I know and expect a lot of my comments to be tossed into the trash can, but someone out there may find them helpful. One of the things that amaze me is that a lot of the problems plaguing others have never come up in my units. Either I'm doing something right or I'm really lucky. I don't mind the occasional hijack, especially in the area of courtesy on the forum, no apology necessary. Stosh

The issue isn't "getting away with it" because the amount is so small, it's the message we are sending to the boys. My troop, with parent and committee agreement is no ISA's unless it's a holding account of the scout's own money he puts into it. Just like is done by the council office for troops. Stosh

Little Johnny wants to go to Philmont, Mom and Dad toss $1000 into the troop funds designated for Little Johnny's ISA. They take a nice tax deduction on the transaction. Now if they can get hundreds of popcorn buyers to do the same thing, that's even better! There are so many questionable ethics issues here it's ridiculous.

Just a couple of comments. 1) Gaterade will bring you back on your feet twice as fast as plain water. I carry it as part of my first aid kit. I have had my people go down in the heat, and Gaterade is the first thing I reach for. 2) SPL approves Patrol menus? When do you plan on teaching leadership to the PL's. Another example of top down management control vs. real leadership from those trying to lead. And to make it worse, the SPL is accountable to the SM? Obviously the troop has only one real leader and that's an adult. A bit more mentoring and a lot less rules goes a long way in building real leadership among the boys, where it should be. A few instructional classes by the SPL to help the patrols plan better menus might be in order. The first lesson on empty calories might be a good start. Forcing the boys into compliance on nutrition will only encourage contraband. It is far better to eat well so that the junk food doesn't become a necessity to the boys. Stosh

They'll soon figure out that lugging around a 12 pack is not as much fun as a packet of Kool-Aid. Stosh

Then change the legal laws, but quit trying to force legal issues into the religious arena. If a business man doesn't want to make a homosexual wedding cake, so be it, it's his prerogative to refuse service to anyone he/she wishes. Ask any bartender. Forcing clergy to perform religious ceremonies is another infringement on separation of church and state. Religious organizations should be able to on religious grounds select members of their own choice without being legally sued. The point being, there's this whole separation of church and state, that means the state is to mind it's own business and leave the religious issues to the church. If this whole brouhaha is because people want to be free from religious influences, well, it's about time religious people be free from the crap forced on them by the government, too. If a religious issue comes before any government court, it should be tossed out. They have no business dealing with it. Maybe it's time we tossed out the American flag from every church sanctuary in the country, too. So we're back to the middle ages once more. Does the King hold the stirrup for the Pope, or does the Pope hold the stirrup for the King? Isn't it great how far we've come in the past... well, forever years? The Roman Empire did a better job on this issue than we do today! Stosh

The trick is the fine balance between boy-led and patrol-method. With a strong SM/SPL combo, the troop method may in fact function and function fairly well in a small troop as "boy-led", i.e. the boys doing what the adults tell them to do. However, "leadership" development is limited to the controlling management skills to the top people, i.e. SM and to a certain extent delegated tasks to the SPL. This will not work well with the patrol-method. In the patrol-method, there is less top-down control and it is passed off to the individual PL's to work with their patrols. No one is "in charge" of the whole shebang. The SM needs to delegate control, not just tasks to the PL's. At that point, if the SM "lets go" of the reins and turns to supporting the PL's, then the patrol-method has a chance. As an ASM, no matter how much I tried to implement the patrol-method even within the confines of one honor patrol, the SM would not relent and 2-3 years of effort were without results. My Silver Beaver, District Commissioner, ASM had her eyes opened last night at the scout meeting. Last week, I was working with the boys (all Webelos cross-overs) trying to set up some activities, organize advancement routine, etc. The ASM and another parent came over and sat in on the meeting with the boys. Trying to help, they offered up a lot of good suggestions. However, the boys shut down. I told the PL last night I was going to take the adults over to another table and he would have to run the show by himself. The adults were just to observe what they experienced the week before with what was happening last night. Well, the boys worked on knots, planned an outing, and finalized a couple of requirements. My adults are now firmly convinced that no adult need be at the patrol table unless invited. It does work, even with Webelos cross-over scouts. Adults do not need to control anything. Stosh

Homosexual marriage is not the issue. It's basically the issue of using the word Marriage in the discussion. There is nothing to say that homosexuals can't have a legal contract which can be set up to be a "marriage" in effective reality. Each person gives power of attorney to each other. They put down beneficiaries in each other's names, they set up a living will declaring each other as the "next of kin", etc. Most businesses set up significant others as beneficiaries in terms of medical insurance, and of course beneficiaries once again, name each other. After all a marriage license between two heterosexuals is nothing more than just that, a legal contract. But for those who wish to make a political or religious statement out of it they insist that the terminology be the same. We don't fight over the reality of the situation, we only fight over the definition of the reality. Two bachelor brothers work the same family farm. They give each other power of attorney to each other, they put down beneficiaries in each other's name, etc. Is that an incest relationship? Should they be arrested? As long as they don't declare themselves or wishing to force society to accept it as a marriage, who really cares? When such couples insist society accept them on their terms, they have to be ready to accept the answer NO. After all it is a proper answer to any yes or no question. I am "married" by legal definition. There was no justice of the peace, judge or clergy officiant present at our "ceremony". I signed the license in the blank asking who officiated at the ceremony. I had two witnesses which are required by law. The state did not care who "officiated" they are not in the business of religion, only the civil concerns of a state legal marriage. When I asked the clerk of court who could sign in that spot, they said it didn't matter. It's a legal issue, not a religious issue. Basically if one were to read the document carefully, the person who signs in the "officiant" spot is legally bound to turn the license into the courts, nothing more, nothing less. Any two people can have a civil contract, but some seem to want more than that, they want the religious world to accept them as well. Sorry, to some, that will never happen even if the government says it is so. After all there is a separation of church and state in this country. The state can do whatever it wants, and the church can do the same. Stosh

Pulse of the nation? Well if you poll the tyrant with executive powers, it will always be 100% in favor of whatever they want it to be. If you poll the 12 on the Supreme Court who feel it necessary to legislate from the bench, you're going to get different numbers. If you poll the 500+ in Congress you will get the pulse of whatever party is in the majority but of course they speak for all the people. If you poll the nation through a national referrendum, you will get yet another number depending on how well people are able to vote multiple times. If you want to get an honest poll in today's society, spit into the wind and see how well it works out for you. Stosh

And according to the "poll" there are no figures indicating the size of the sampling researched. It does not necessarily reflect any actual credibility. 100 people in North Dakota aren't going to give the same poll numbers as 100 people in San Francisco. Just because it's in the newspaper does not mean there is any thing connecting it to what is really going on. News media is in the business of selling information, and they will use whatever information sells the best. Out of the many times I've been in situations where the media reported on it, 100% of the time the information they printed was incorrect and biased. Put it to a vote and quit relying on inaccurate media polls. Stosh

How does one create an outdoor program for the modern man whose biggest outdoor hurdle in his life is getting from the front door to his car in a rainstorm? The current pool of young parents have no clue what an outdoor program is supposed to accomplish. Instead of hiking from one campsite to the next, most parents plan activities from one hotel chain to the next. Camping consists of dropping off the RV next to the lake and playing on the beach and fishing the weekend. If it doesn't have a motor on it, it isn't boating. A tent without bug netting is a ground cloth. Air mattresses require a vehicle with a cigarette lighter in it. Hiking, biking, and such activities are destinations, not journeys. Wood for campfires is purchased at the local gas station. And yes, local pizza joints will deliver to the local campground, it the campground doesn't already have that ability along with WIFI, pool, game room and crowded campsites. Charcoal is old fashioned, but if used is restricted to the backyard patio. The irony is the use of gas charcoal grills. Haven't figured that one out yet. If you have a nice neighborhood, you can always camp in the back yard, but don't lock the back door, the kids need bathroom access. If there are any bugs out there, all bets are off. Is it any wonder there are still some in this society that have to try really hard to get away from all this crap? Yes, yesterday I spent time in the pouring rain to get out to the egret/heron rookery before the DNR closed it to the public. Like any public was going to make the effort to get to it anyway? People, over the past 100 years, have spent an enormous amount of time and money into getting away from it all. That's why we have indoor plumbing, electricity, screens on the windows, insulation, pest control contracts, lawn services, and homes with good roofs. Even the stupid car can't sit outside anymore. So, how does all of this fit into Scouting for the 21st Century??? Stosh

Everyone knows that Marketing is the way to go. If BSA is "just another youth organization" it becomes just one more option on a long list of things to do. If it is a leadership development program that teaches management skills instead, that could become a problem as well. Until BSA decides to reevaluate it's program and make it the unique entity is once was, it will remain just another youth organization amongst many. The pool of potential members will be diluted yet again. Today's world offers far more distractions for youth than it did 50 years ago. They don't know what they want, but they will jump from one activity to the next and/or veg-out on electronics as an escape mechanism from the stress put on them to succeed. There's something seriously wrong with our society that spends time in Middle School preparing the kids for the SAT/ACT tests for college, while at the same time accept the notion that at age 30 the child is still living at home, unable to cope with the world that surrounds them. There are no pioneers left in America. They would need to know how to operate and survive in an unknown world. How's that working out for our boys in Scouting? January 1, 2000 - Y2K. What if all the dire predictions had come true? No electicity, no gas, minimal food access, and the country went into a subsistence economy overnight. I wonder if the skills taught in scouting may have been helpful, or maybe the survival MB, out cooking on a wood fire, or.... Remember January 1 is in the dead of winter in the northern tier of the US. Are our boys Prepared to cope? Scouting is not an elective in life, it's the material needed to not only succeed, but also simply survive. Maybe Eagle should be more than just something one puts on their college application and is included on their employment resume. Stosh

Some of my best servant leaders have chosen to take the back seat in the troop to lead from. Instead of "doing it for them", they have taken on the role of helping/supporting them and have done far better at leadership than those wearing the POR patches. "We need to have the tents checked out for the next campout." Do they go to the new QM who doesn't know anything or do they turn to Joe who will bend over backwards to make sure the tents get checked out? "Is the patrol mess kit ready to go?" The PL and APL checked it out as part of their activity prep. "New scout Johnny can't find his mess kit." No problem, his buddy (Tenderfoot #9) has already broken down his mess kit and is ready to make sure his buddy will have the opportunity to have supper. This is basic problem solving that is core to the servant leader. He sees a problem and is working on a solution long before some management "leader" is evaluating the situation getting ready to delegate responsibilities to fix it. People do not follow managers, they follow manager's directives to take care of a task. People do follow real leaders because they trust that they are the ones "looking out for them in the long run and will get things done." Kids aren't stupid, they know who the real leaders are and more often than not, the last place they look is on the left sleeve of the uniform. Stosh

Enough of the navel gazing! A quick google search on "Decline in Youth Organization Membership" showed articles on membership decline as far back as 2010. Groups included: GSUSA BSA Pop Warner Football Baseball, soccer, basketball, football programs sports in general youth ministries of the churches service club memberships church attendence 4-H So how is the gay issue related to any and all of this. There is a general trend for youth not to be involved in any and all activities as they once were. It has NOTHING to do with their sexual orientation or belief in a god. BSA is going to lose membership just like all the other youth organizations in America. Get over it. Provide a good program for those that haven't dropped out and ignore polls that are doing nothing more than pointing out the obvious. Stosh

If you push it, you'll be asked to leave. First of all, it requires a strong leadership commitment from the PL's, even if it is only the first experimental patrol. Secondly it requires support from the SM, SPL and other "traditional higher-ups" who are skilled in organizational management and don't want their system disrupted. If you don't have dynamic natural leaders attempting the try, the traditional system will quickly announce the attempt's failure to the world. After all they will be watching for any and all slip-ups along the way. If in a "million-to-one" chance you are successful, you will be a major threat to the adult controlled BSA system that will quickly jerk back the reins and you'll be back at square one. For example, one patrol is successful, the "powers that be" will quickly step in and destroy the patrol by reassigning everyone in that patrol to "teach the other boys". Unless BSA has a complete change of heart, I don't see it happening except in brand new troops with experienced leaders who are 100% dedicated to the "old fashioned" boy-led, patrol-method, style of organization and are willing to buck the system. I've tried what Sentinel947 is trying to do and it was a 15 year battle with the SM and committee. Even when one patrol was able to get up and running effectively, it was quickly broken up and assigned to "help" the other patrols. I tried to convert an existing troop over to boy-led, patrol-method as SM and encountered parental and committee dismissal. I'm trying to start from scratch with a brand new troop (no traditional management structure) as SM, maybe third time will be a charm. I wish you well and hope for your success. Maybe you will succeed in your area of the world. Maybe if enough real leaders step up and give it a try, they can set a precedent for others to follow that may someday get incorporated into the adult training of BSA as it once was. Stosh

Okay, my mistake! Sometimes it takes a mere few seconds to identify a real Eagle. Stosh

One of the biggest hurdles I have faced in the program is vividly described by Kudu. The SPL and QM, and other troop offices "run" the program and the PL's have nothing to do. This is because of the "top-down" structuring of the troop by BSA. Along with this the program gives lip service to servant leadership, but has no concept of how that works in a "top-down" structure. My contention is that it doesn't. As I have mentioned before, there is a difference between leadership and management and management is more conducive to the "top-down" approach. There are tasks that need to be done and the upper level managers delegate those tasks down to the patrols leaving the PL's as nothing more than echoes at the middle management level. There is little or no leadership necessary for this to happen. A task is identified and the structure is designed to accomplish the task. The best one could do to identify leadership is simply recognizing the task that needs to be done. Most of the time, the task is nothing more than the same-old, same-old routine so that leadership is minimal at best as well. On the other hand if the troop was structured under a real patrol-method, the PL's would be the ranking leadership of the unit. They would be the ones that would identify the needs and wishes of their patrol and then lead the boys in accomplishing that task. If the task requires more expertise than what he has to offer, then he has the QM, SPL, etc. to SUPPORT him as servant leaders to assist him with his patrol on an as-needed basis. I like to see the troop organized as a mini-council district. Each patrol is its own autonomous "troop" guided by a boy leader. They plan and carry out patrol activities related to their interests and needs. What other patrols are doing is not part of their operation. However, if they wish to carry out activities that may require more resources than what they have in the patrol they have the PLC to turn to for support. Suppose out of the 6 patrols in the troop, 3 are older boy patrols and 3 are younger boy patrols. The older boys want to do high adventure this summer while the younger patrols want to go to summer camp. The PLC then focuses its attention on how to get the support needed to get them to the goals they have set. The QM sorts equipment so as to have the older boys get the backpacking equipment up and ready and doesn't worry too much about the summer camp boys who at the most may need tents for the week. The QM makes sure each "group" gets what it needs. SPL coordinates the adults to see who can give rides, attend summer camp with the younger boys and finds adults wanting/willing to take on the high adventure patrols. He coordinates the schedules to make sure the troop is able to meet the needs of both groups. They are not running anything, they are helping the patrols accomplish that which they have decided they want to do instead. This PL level structure requires a ton of leadership to identify the needs of the patrol and then work to develop a plan to accomplish it. There is no same-old, same-old requirements. They have to be able to think on their feet and also outside the box, solving problems unique to their patrols. GBB's training allows for a PL, APL, patrol QM, patrol Scribe, patrol GrubMaster, patrol HikeMaster, etc. Everyone has something to do, no one sits around waiting for something to follow. They all have to develop some level of leadership that involves problem solving, planning and execution. I had gone through JLT, and ISLT with the boys and I was sitting in on the third session of GBB training when the parents of some of the boys who were not wanting that much leadership responsibility came forward and had me removed from the position of SM. They flat out told me that I was expecting too much leadership out of the boys, their words, not mine. Top-down management by adults seems to be the acceptable way to go in scouting today. If one wishes to spin their wheels a bit they can try JLT or ISLT as a token lip service to the program, but to actually allow the boys to lead is a major threat to an adult led/controlled well managed program. I can assure you that today's leadership with 40 years behind it have long forgotten the patrol-method of running a troop. I saw the changes start back in the mid-1970's and what we have today in the program are pretty good managers, but very few actual leaders. So, I'll ask the question flat out... How does one manage a troop that has it's patrols 300' apart? It simply can't. And that's the rub. Stosh

I was asked by my ASM if I would be interested in being on WB staff in the next session. I told her (Silver Beaver awardee/district commissioner) that I couldn't because I was WB trained prior to 2000. It's my ace-in-the-hole of getting out of such things. She said she would work on that. I hope she's not successful. By the way, she asked to be my ASM because of how I am running my troop as boy-led, patrol-method and wants to know more about how that works. One would think that as WB trained, Silver Beaver awardee, district commissioner, former SM, she would know all about it. Obviously not. Stosh

Eagle can mean different things to different people. Eagle can mean a boy meets the minimum requirements to get the rank, or it can also mean an attitude of character/leadership developed over the course of one's scouting career. On paper it's often difficult to tell the difference, but talking with the scout for 5 minutes should quickly determine which one he is. Stosh

One you get addicted to this forum, you will be. Welcome Stosh

A boy that doesn't get an opportunity to spend time with the den outside of his backyard will probably not make it but 1 day at summer camp. The parent that doesn't go with the boy to these den outings to help with the bridging over will find his boy unable to do it on their own. It's unfortunate, but it is the parent's choice to have it happen this way. There's a time and place for every child to break away from mom and dad and scouting offers a safe and caring way of doing that. However, if the parents balk at it, this kid will be camping in his parent's back yard when he's 40 years old. Camping is more than tents and campfires, it's the opportunity to break away from the safe and secure and look for new adventures out there that mom and dad can't provide. Stosh

Instant pudding, equivalent powdered milk for two cups of milk. Dump both powders in sandwich ziplock toss in backpack. For dessert, open ziplock, add 2 cups of cold water, reseal, mush around for 2 minutes and you have VanPud, ChocPud, or ButPud. Boys love it and surprisingly, the VanPud takes honors. The names came from the repackage shorthand on the last BWCA trip. Add fresh berries from the woods after you have mushed around for the 2 minutes. The cold water used must be filtered in the backcountry. Stosh