Stosh

Sorry if you thought I was making any references to you. We all own the onus of teaching these things to our kids, even outside of scouting. Sadly there are those out there that don't.

I think the best course of action is to stay within the chain of command. Now with the time element involved, I wold give each step 30 minutes to affect some sort of effective change. The COR and IH start out because they own the charter. It is their unit. If they are happy with the way things are, then move on and keep going until someone does something about it. When it comes ts bullying, I teach my boys the same process. Keep going until someone helps.If it goes all the way to the police and they don't listen (not really abuse then I like John's idea as well. You aren't going to solve this on your own. Keep going until you get help.

Talk to these people in this order until you get appropriate resolution to the situation. The Charter Organization Representative The Institutional Head of your charting organization The District Executive of your district The Secouting Executive of your council. I at that point the situation is not fully resolved notify the police and get a lawyer this is a case of assault.

The world is a dangerous place, none of us gets out alive. Protecting our children from it isn't the solution, unless one is going to do it for the rest of their lives. They have to learn how to protect themselves. Sheltering our young from such opportunities to learn isn't the answer. When I asked my daughter where her daughter was, she said, "Outside building up her immune system," I knew she would be coming into the house soon looking like a lost orphan. Children learn the greatest lessons from being exposed to the world, not sheltered from it.

From the OP's observations, why do terrific programs fail and sloppy programs succeed? I think it boils down to ownership. Heavy adult participation from scouters and parents provide an often great looking program. The scouts see this as one would going to a movie. Somebody put it all together and I just show up and be entertained. The sloppy run programs, the adults aren't doing jack, so the boys have to step in and make it happen. In the first program the ownership lies with the adults and the judgments are placed on how well they put the program together for the boys. Skilled adults will always produce a banner program. But the scouts? If they have to pull it together, they don't have the life experience to make it happen at a level comparable to the adults. They bungle along the best they can, they realize that if they don't take ownership, it's going to fall apart, my buddies are relying on me, and they make it happen in spite of the difficulty. It's their program and they have taken ownership. So what's the answer (I wish I knew). But if one follows the program, i.e. patrol method, one sees a sense of balance between the two. The adults don't run the show, they are patient as saints with the failure of the boys, but they are in the wings in case anything turns into a disaster. The boys aren't there just to have fun and be entertained, They are challenged, inspired and taught along the way. BSA is not a developed program, it is a developmental program. There has to be a progression towards maturity and development of character. Otherwise it's nothing more than a social club. No, hard work is not fun, but it can be rewarding. It's not fun talking to people who's house is filled with water, or a hurricane is on the horizon, or a tornado just turned your neighborhood into a trash heap, or your house just burned down and you and your family are instantly homeless. But I volunteer for a program that addresses these issues. Is it fun? No, but it is rewarding. This is the purpose of Good Turns, conservation projects, service projects, Eagle projects, helping other people at all times, and from tying the first square knot to aging out, this progression of skills, interests, challenges, all work towards instilling these values into the next generation. Running a great entertainment program, no matter how good it looks may not be doing that, but a bunch of scouts screwing around together picking up garbage along side the road and getting a picture of what they accomplished at the end, just might be the program we want for our boys.

He said, she said, ad nausium. The point being is not what was or was not said, the point being, both need to start acting like adults. In the long run they are both equally bad. These trials by propaganda media are nothing more than shams to politically position oneself into some supposedly power position.The only real victim here is the truth.

There's enough media spin that I now generally ignore most of it and do independent research on issues of interest to me. I weigh both spins and then decide what might have actually happened. Often times it easy to pick out the clearly spun stories. One has to read carefully, often word by word, to get the nuance of multiple interpretations to determine what may have really happened. Every disclaimer is suspect. "A reliable source..." could be Joe Sunday standing on the street corner. Reliable often can be boiled down to "somebody". This is how the media hypes the facts to get their ratings and thus more ad money. Media is a business just like any other business.Journalism left the building a long time ago. That's why they call it media, not journalism. Those words don't mean the same.

Are you making a Truman/Trump comparison here?? Comparing a Democrat with a Republican? No wonder you're confused.

Ownership with an educated decision by the boys makes life so much easier on the adults, too.

That's gotta stink up the neighborhood. We used to take them home a give them a burial in the backyard cemetery, aka garden. it's a technique used by the native Americans. Maze (corn) is a heavy feeding plant and the practice is "organic", too.

By the way one plant that is invasive in one part of the country isn't always invasive elsewhere. Most of the non-native plants were brought over from other countries because of their edible and herbal qualities. They have since gotten out of their garden confinements and spread. The chicory that grows as an abundant weed along our roadsides was once farmed and processed as a coffee substitute. Dandelion flowers make the wine, the leaves make the salad, and the roots roasted like chicory make a coffee substitute. One also has to be careful of the nomenclature use here. There are noxious plants and invasive plants. Both have native and non-native plants in those categories. For example Poison Ivy and Ragweed are both native plants that are noxious. Invasive vs. non-invasive is a term used to describe the speed and severity by which it spreads.

I eradicate dandelions from my lawn every spring. They make good wine.

They have at a local level in many places, but not nationally.

In America everyone has a chance to grow up and be President, it's a risk we all take.

Never underestimate a shrewd businessman. They know the odds, they play the game, they can negotiate like an expert and if the deal is sweet enough, they know what sells and how to win. There were 16 Republican candidate and 1 Democratic candidate that learned the business world and the world of politics are two different animals.

Gee, when I was in college, I went camping, fishing, boating/canoeing, skiing, hunting etc. all the time with my new buddies. One doesn't need a structured program to do that. It doesn't take long to find the outdoorsy type people with like interests. I always got asked because I could cook on a campfire. The stove was one less thing to drag into the woods. I even got invited to a fishing trip to Canada because the people knew how to fish, but didn't know the first thing about camping. My trip was free, they all chipped in for my share of the trip because I could camp and cook. Maybe it's different these days than what it was back then, but I can assure you that the weekend before finals weeks was not a good time to get out into the woods.

If there are no term limits it also means there are no number of terms to consider. A lazy scout's term in office might be a week or two and a go-getter scout's term might end when he turns 18. Either way, it's one term. There's no selection/election process defined. No schedule of elections on a periodic basis either. The 6 month, 12 month stuff is made up by the adults, not the BSA. Also who can and who can't be considered for office isn't a BSA policy either. I just don't play the game and if something goes wrong, I don't get caught holding the bag. If there's a problem, it's up to the boys to work it out. PL, "For the next 3 months I will be busy with basketball in school. Joey, the APL will be standing in for me, his phone number is: (000)-000-0000. I'll try to make the meetings, but he will still be the acting PL during this time." Of course PL Johnny might find in his absence, Joey is doing the job 10 times better, just to find out the boys now have made Joey PL. That's life.

@Col. Flagg Correct me if I'm wrong, but the TC does not have the position to hire/fire the SM, the COR does. The COR's job is to acquire all adult leadership in the unit. You are correct the TC handles the operations, but the SM handles the program. Your comments also make reference to "mentoring" the unit's leadership. That can be a thin line between helping and directing the leaders. The tact I use is: PL: There's a hassle going on in my patrol. (Level 2 conflict) SM: What makes you suspect that? Can you be more specific? (Level 1 Conflict) (Gotta know the problem before one can solve it.) PL: A couple of the boys are saying it isn't fun anymore. SM, Is it true? PL, I'm trying but it seems to be getting worse. SM: What is it you've tried that isn't working? PL: (A litany of things that have gone badly) SM: Have you talked to the whole patrol about this? PL: No. It hasn't gotten that far yet. SM: Do you think they might have some suggestions? etc. Yes, I as SM ask somewhat leading questions, but the onus of a solution lies with the PL. He's the only one who knows whether he is capable of implementing the solution. And in the end, if something finally does catch hold, it's always the leader who's come up with the idea and takes 100% of the credit for it.

The first thing that ran through my mind on reading this was, why does there have to be an adult rule to be honest? I guess that's just me.

In all honesty, I really down know how they select their leadership. They are off in another room. They come out of the room and tell the advancement ASM who's going to be the PL. This can happen at any time the patrol decides. There are no term limits. As far as I know it's Rock-Paper-Scissors. I really don't care. The boys do and they usually do a good job. If they don't they have a new PL at the next meeting. What they do to select, elect, acquire or whatever to get their leadership, it's their problem, not mine. So far I haven't any complaints and if the boys do, they take care of it themselves. And by the way, I do very little "mentoring" of the leadership. None of this matrix, % of attendance, etc. etc. etc. Either the boy figures out what his patrol needs and deals with it or the next guy gets a chance. At the BOR's there's very little discussion about whether or not a scout has fulfilled his POR, if he has the requisite time, the committee knows that it's earned because the patrol will back him up. Actually with this system I have no issues with the POR requirement and will check off the requirement with the approval of the patrol members. No questions asked.

Gee, if one wants to do the Rover program for "young adults" they could open the age up to 40 or before one has to get out of the parent's basement whichever came first.

They didn't have to work for palms prior to Eagle other than showing up for MB classes. Why after Eagle are there requirements? One way or the other, but the Eagle rank has no business determining whether or not one gets a palm. After Eagle a scout can earn 5 additional MB's and it means nothing just like it did before Eagle. As qwazse says, it's just more patches on the sash. An Eagle scout can simply "drop out" of the leadership/service of the troop and focus on MB's if the palms mean nothing more than more patches. What's the sense of that?

"False. It was recognized by a sash full of cloth medallions." So, what's the difference between earning MB's before Eagle and after Eagle? One does not need to do anything but MB's before. Afterwards the rules change. I simply promote the idea that whether the MB is awarded before or after Eagle, the requirements of leadership, etc. be applied equally without the Eagle demarcation. Scout earns Star/Life with 35 MB's becomes inactive at 15, waits until 17.5 comes back and gets his Eagle. Sure, it's unfair to award the palms at that point and this is why I don't think the new policy is a good one. But if the boy stays active, holds POR, puts in 3 months (fulfills the requirements for palms) for each 5 palms, then at 17.5 doesn't get his Eagle with palms earned before Eagle, then I don't think it's really all that fair either just because he put off his Eagle until the last minute. That 2-3 years of active participation as a Star/Life scout is ignored. There has to be some kind of common sense fairness to the process, but to go from one extreme to the other without considering the many options in between is rather foolish.

If one doesn't listen to the "boots on the ground", then all one has left is the Ivory Tower with no foundation.