Stosh

I have the complete library of Percy Reese Fitzhugh. Tom Slade, Roy Blakeley, Pee Wee Harris, Westy Martin, Mark Gilmore, and all the Buddy Boy singles. I even have the serial version of one of Pee Wee Harris "books" that never went to print, but was published over 4 issues of Boy's Life (WARRIOR BOLD) back in the 20's and 30's. Even as an adult, I have totally enjoyed the books! They go a long way to describe Scouting as it originally designed, not what it has become today. For the old timers out there the comic strip in Boy's Life on the back page was Pee Wee and Roy. For a long time Fitzhugh's legacy lived on even though most of us at the time were unaware of it. The EBL book, ALONG THE MOHAWK TRAIL, written by Fitzhugh was the book that inspired the early BSA movement to commission the other series that Fitzhugh produced over the next 20+ years. If anyone wishes to learn about boy-led, patrol-method and putting scout requirement skills to good practice, these are the books to read. Stosh

Hmmm, does selling them a ticket to attend an event on that property constitute a contract that the person would be able to have access to the event as long as they are behaving themselves? Stosh

The area of town my new troop is in is boxed in by steep hills on the east side, suburb to the north, major portion of the town on the south and river on the west. Seriously boxed in. 3 troops to the north, 4 to the south, 2-3 packs in the immediate area and the only scout troop in the area folded. It was one of the powerhouse troops in the council. The Troop folded because the church that Chartered it dropped their school. No place to meet. No one made an effort to save it. It died for 2 years. I came forward, found another CO TWO BLOCKS away from the original troop and got it going again. It's been a slow restart, but we're up to 6 boys now and had the original troop showed a bit of gumption, a lot of hassle could have been avoided. Because we are marketing ourselves as boy-led, patrol-method, different than the others, we are attracting boys who have parents that drive right by 3-4 troops to get to ours. (They live about 1/2 mile from my house and I drive 7 miles to get to the meetings. I live on the far south-side of town. So, you're up against some stiff competition from two other troops in a small town? Don't need to do the math, need to do something different. Run a good troop different than theirs and the boys will come. I may be in a box geographically, but thinking outside the box is where the target group of boys reside. I have received multiple commitments from different packs, none of which are a "feeder" pack to us, to send their Webelos II over as soon as they can. Maybe one of the Packs will become a feeder pack to us, but the other troops are filling them up with DC's because my boys are all just first year scouts. And yet, the Packs are seriously watching our progress. There used to be 4 troops to the north of us, but one didn't recharter this spring and folded into one of the other three up there. Probably couldn't compete. Ironically, I had offered to SM that troop instead of starting a new one and they turned me down. I guess I dodged a bullet there. I guess it just boils down as to how bad one wants to keep things going. Stosh

"The man also was CONVICTED..." Yep, and paid in full (no probation, maximum sentence) his debt to society. Until something happens, life goes on. Just remember the convicted felon DUI driver is driving up and down the residential streets of your neighborhood and if he/she's been drinking, they might get convicted again, but they might just kill someone along the way there. Maybe you, maybe your kids, or maybe one of your neighbors. Really doesn't make a whole lot of difference does it? Why don't we keep these people on a public list? Or the convicted murderers in your neighborhood. They're there as well. No list for them? Kinda makes it hard to get worked up about it, doesn't it? If one were to really know all the convicted felons in their neighborhoods, they would move to the woods and become a hermit. Stosh

Assume? Who rented? The angry parents or the Troop? Sounds like the troop was using the church hall. Assuming it really doesn't explain it away. After the fact is pretty much a moot point. No laws were broken, nothing happened, and life goes on. End of story. Stosh

So the Youth troop leadership sat on their hands and didn't help the cub pack, either. Resulting in the troop folding. Sounds like these 4 Eagles got what they needed/wanted out of program and walked away. That's not a legacy I would want to put on my resume. Stosh

Not if they are not the property owner or someone who legally speaks for the property owner. I cannot legally go over to my neighbors and have someone evicted from their property. Obviously the police declined to pursue anything in the circumstances described. It would seem this is nothing more than a publicity stunt instigated by a few "angry parents" who had no say so in the matter either way. That's why they turned it into a publicity stunt by contacting the media. Stosh

Both boys who were involved, took it prior to me taking over as SM. The troop I was involved with for 15 years prior to that did not send any boys to NYLT during that time. It was adult-led and so they didn't think there was any need for it. My boys now are all too young for NYLT, so for 20 years, I have not had contact with the program except for the annual begging and pleading one gets to try and get boys to the program. Roundtable does very little if anything to promote the program other than "send your boys!" Maybe they could work a bit on their marketing approach. Stosh

We're not talking about someone who has had too much to drink at some bar, here. We're not talking about anyone disturbing the peace either. We're talking about someone quietly showing up for an event and a few people don't happen to like him. If my neighbor is a jerk, I can keep him out of my yard because it's private property. But he can stand peacefully all day long on my front sidewalk, because it is public property. The church owned the property, yet nothing is said about what they thought of the whole thing. We're not talking about what someone or some agency can technically do legally. There are a lot of other factors, that come into play as to whether or not it is a mature, responsible action to take. On what grounds are the police going to act if no laws have been broken? He is in a public place and has a legal right to be there. If the scouts don't serve him, he can sit quietly next to his wife and she can finish her meal. The point being, the parents were up in arms about this guy and called the media, not the police. Sounds like more of a political agenda than any legal concern for the boys. Had they called the police, what law are they there to enforce when they have stated themselves that no laws were being broken? Maybe it was at that point they called the media when they didn't get their way. The parents have no legal stand on making up their own little laws as they go along. It's called vigilantism. We have laws that protect us from such people. Maybe the angry parents should have taken their boys and gone home if they were all that upset about it. That's what a responsible parent is expected to do and they didn't. I don't think they were as concerned about their children as they were about hassling this guy. And by the way, when was the last time anyone has heard of the police showing up at a church to throw someone out that is basically minding their own business and not hassling anyone? That's gotta be a PR nightmare for the police, church and the scouts. Stosh

The police stated no laws were broken. The event was held in a church venue. A lot of information was withheld from the news article. One can speculate all they want and it doesn't change anything. And now a BSA employee needs to be hassled because she supported a BSA activity with her husband that some parents didn't like? That's a pretty bogus guilt by association vigilante attitude. She did nothing wrong. The news article does not state whether this couple are members of the Presbyterian Church, but the message sent out to the community by scouts wanting to toss out church members of their CO church would be interesting and "speculation" on omitting such information peaks my interest. Next time the scouts have a dinner, find a less inflammatory setting, where Merlyn says the scouts can toss out anyone willy-nilly as they see fit. Sell pre-event tickets only and make sure everyone sells only to the "right people" or do background checks on them. No ticket sales at the door. That will solve any and all problems. If one is going to "protect the boys", then such matters need to be implemented. Sure, it's going to cost the troop a lot of potential funds, but hey, that's what's necessary to do due diligence. And as far as asking anyone to leave, one also has to remember, NO is an valid answer one would have to be considered in such circumstances. To physically remove anyone who has not broken any laws will draw the police in very quickly. One has to look beyond one's own prejudices and look at the whole picture before committing to a knee-jerk reaction. I'm thinking felony assault by a Scout leader is going to make more media attention than just the local rag. I'm thinking that until some of the parents made a stink about this, none of the scouts would have known a thing about this guy. A 17 year old Eagle Scout would have been 2 years old when this guy went to prison. Just like any of the boys menu shopping for the next campout, having a convicted child molester or any convicted felon for that matter, walking down the same aisle in the grocery store with them, it happens all the time. Stosh

There's probably very little one can do as the new guy on the block. Either find another troop in the area or bite the bullet. It's unfortunate that your oldest will not be involved but at 17 he has the option to drive to another troop that supports scouting as it was designed. The middle boy might just want to tough it out, but will probably not be very happy in the long run. Leave the door open for other troops but it's his decision. The youngest hasn't see what the real world of Scouting is supposed to be and may end up very happy with the way things are going, But again, leave the door open for other options down the road. Now, for you. With 15 years of experience and a knowledge base you have about scouting the troop may wish to recruit you. However, a polite decline might be in order unless you're bald and then it doesn't make any difference. Also, there are other troops that you as an adult scouter might find more to your liking. You don't have to join a troop where your boys attend. That has its good and its bad points. Otherwise one might consider doing UC for the district. You obviously know a lot about how a Troop should be run, have tremendous knowledge as to Pack operations and would be a valuable asset at that level. As one who struggled for 15 years in an adult-led program, you can be assured, nothing is going to change without some kind of heroic effort by the right people. You'll never even make a dent as an individual. Stosh

He would do better at the mall where no one knows him. Obvioiusly if he's a former scouter, being at a scout event increases his chances of being noticed, which it did. Gotta love the "I know what other people are thinking" attitude. What am I thinking right now? Stosh

Nope, fulfilling a POR is the only part of fulfilling a POR, nothing more, nothing less. Over the years, I have only had two boys take NYLT as a leadership development opportunity. Both Eagled, both thought the program to be a waste of time and money. I wouldn't know, I only go on what they have told me. I'm unfamiliar with the program and I'm not seeing many chomping at the bit to get to it in our council. Stosh

I'm thinking Merlyn and I both don't buy into that. Stosh

The two are not mutually exclusive. One can "car" camp very nicely and still not have to hike to the site. One can stay at the council camp and not have to sleep in cars. Also, a good boy-led program can cut the needed number of adults down to two on any and all patrol-method outings. While my troops tend to be small, I have never had the need for more than two adults on any outing. Stosh

Sounds a bit like splitting hairs and trying to justify one's actions in legalistic terms. Being banned from scouting basically means they cannot be part of the program. Does this mean he can't show up for his grandson's EBOR? Technically it's not a "scout" function, it's a family function with scouts present. And when the boys sell bake good in front of Walmart, how many pedophiles do they sell to that they don't know about that have been scoping out the boys all afternoon from the parking lot? Just because one calls it one thing or another, how does it insure the "safety" of the boys either way. A rose by any other name is still a rose. So now what happens if the COR is a church and the scouts are doing their troop's spaghetti dinner in the church basement. Does that give the scouts the right to throw someone out of the church? Seems like everyone is getting so wrapped up in the minutia of the situation they have their shorts in knots. It is my contention as a SM and as one who has worked with youth for 40+ years, one is always vigilant to any dangers surrounding the youth in their care whether they know there are unsavory people around or not. Try on the scenario of a parent who is abusing their scout. Going to kick them around as well? If dad's doing it, then one ought to kick mom out too for letting it happen. One can play these games forever and never resolve anything. Just do one's job as a scout leader and don't worry about the hundreds of boogie men hiding around all the trees out there. They are there. Just be careful as one should be anyway. Stosh

"Anyone can be excluded for cause, signs aren't required. I haven't seen any place that has signs warning patrons to not tip over all the tables, but I suspect anywhere you go you'd be tossed out soon." This is pretty much a ridiculous argument, people who tip over tables get tossed out of a place because they are tipping over tables, not because they are convicted felons. The new article on this guy didn't mention he tipped over any tables. Stosh

It kinda gets me to thinking along the lines of this guy's wife. Yes, it's all speculation because no one asked her anything..... She's an employee of the council. Would it look bad for her to bring her husband to such an event without first checking it out with her employer? Heck, if it was me, I surely would. And had the employer said, "No way in Hell!" or words to that effect, I would have stayed home and fixed supper for my hubby and if I still felt strong about it, sent off a check to help the boys out anyway. I've bought hundreds of tickets that I never used just become some youth organization was selling them. I wonder how the scout that sold them the tickets felt? Maybe we don't worry about him. However, she risked her employment by bringing her husband to the event. What if the SE had said, "I don't think there would be a problem with that." Okay, he made a bad choice as things turned out. Is the wife going to get fired for a lapse in judgment? Should the SE be fired for a lapse in judgment? A ton of questions float through my mind as I try to sort them out. Each one is measured against the Scout Law and Promise. Trustworthy, I should be able to keep an eye on this guy to protect my scouts. Not a problem. Loyal... hmmm, maybe to the Scout Law and Promise. Helpful, okay, I don't really want to be helpful to his guy, but maybe what I do is helpful to his wife who's a council employee facing a difficult situation which is of no making of her own. Friendly... Toss the bum out, doesn't come to mind here. Courteous... I can put on a civil show for the duration of the situation. Kind.... Gotta work up to it, but I can do that. Obedient.... to the Law and Promise? I can do that. Cheerful.... I can smile even in the most difficult situations. Thrifty.... he and his wife are supporting the scouts, but I don't want to sell my soul in the process. If he behaves himself and writes a check, it will be okay. Brave.... Yeah, in a difficult situation where my sense of right and wrong is challenged, am I up to the task? Clean... Okay I won't spit in his food. Reverent.... what does my faith tell me is right. How do I see my duty to God in this situation? "When did I see you in prison, Lord?" I'm not saying it's going to be impossible, but it will be difficult, but sometimes doing the right thing isn't the easy road to take, nor is it the road most often taken. Stosh

"That's ridiculous. Isn't he trying to impose his will just as much by showing up?" And who's to say that this gentleman showed up by invitation of his wife, a council employee? No one knows that except the gentleman and his wife. I'm sure no one bothered to ask. Jumping to conclusions is not in line with the Scout Law and Promise. "One has the right to refuse service to anyone." Did anyone post signage, like "No Shoes, No Shirt, No Service"? That's law in many communities. People come to restaurants and bars knowing the law. So, next time one has a fundraiser, make sure one posts the sign, "No Convicted Felons Allowed." That should take care of your problem, and it will keep away a lot of unsavory donors from the boys. It will surely keep anyone with two or more DUI's in this state from showing up to support the cause. Might even keep away a few of the unsavory parents, too. I find that people who are so angry they "see red", most likely can't see much of anything else in any given situation. People who are blinded by anger usually can't see the Scout Law and Promise either. Stosh

One has to remember that fulfilling the requirements of attaining rank involves management skills, but no leadership is required. As Scribe, to fulfill the duties of the Scribe one does not have to lead anyone in the process. Same for Librarian, Historian, WebMaster, etc. They do the task/job and that's all that is required, that is effective management, not leadership. Even PL's that "get the job done" may not need leadership skills to do it if they are well organized and lay out required tasks for the boys to do, i.e. duty rosters, etc. The only requirement that involves "leadership" is the Eagle Project, and that can be done with a modicum of leadership. Letting the boys know of the work day, is not real leadership, but if they show up, a bit of it must have been there. If the SM requires them to be there for the project, then it's the leadership/directive of the SM the boys are following anyway and not the Eagle candidate. Unless one is spending time teaching leadership skills instead of management skills, the boys probably aren't going to pick up much along the way unless they are a natural leader and would have been successful as a leader anyway. An easy test to figure out whether the boy is displaying leadership or management is to ask the question, are the boys doing the work because they have to or because they want to? It's easy to tell the difference. Stosh

No, telling someone they are not welcomed at a public event is not leaving them alone. That is tantamount to trying to impose one's will on someone else. Leaving them alone is not bothering them when they show up to support an activity. One might be a bit more on the alert, but as long as they follow the expectations of civil norms, no harm, no foul. Stosh

Exactly, that is all one can do in a situation like this and still remain true to the Scout Oath and Law. Stosh

Underlined: Neither am I. Underlined: And here's where I differ from the others. I don't care about HIS actions. There is nothing I can do about them. BUT what I can do is worry about MY actions! I do have complete control over them! How I react is important to the Scouting community and how I am perceived by my scouts as I lead by example! What another person's opinion is concerning this situation is not important to anyone other than that person. Sure, there's a lot of people who THINK they have a solution to someone else's actions, but there's not a dang thing they can do about it except whine. It would be a perfect world FOR ME if everyone did everything the way I THINK it should be done. Well, the world doesn't work that way and the sooner we teach our scouts that the happier they will be in the long run. I'm not of the opinion that this person showing up at a troop fundraiser reflects bad on Scouting, but how the scouts REACT to it does. Had I been in this situation, I would have personally served this gentleman his meal if I was truly concerned about any of my boys being near him, taken his check, thanked him, and watch him go out the door, just like anyone else that showed up to help the boys with their activity. I for one don't want my boys thinking that I am all for protecting them from this "evil" person, but the Sunday School children of my local church don't matter. To me that's the message of the last line of the comment. I'm not ready to go that far, nor would I ever express that kind of comment to anyone. Stosh