Stosh

I can't ever recall any of my committees ever involved in any planned activity whether it be boy or adult led. Stosh

Same here, that's why I don't use the council summer camp. We go elsewhere, but the sheath knife is but one of many rules the boys prefer not to deal with for their week. Stosh

There is no difference, it just depends on what day of the week it is and whose ox is getting gored. It's call hypocrisy pure and simple and there's no cure for that. There is no limit to the bigotry one can conjure up if given enough latitude. It's kinda like being hyper sensitive to the sliver in someone else's eye while being totally oblivious to the log on one's own. Stosh

One can be callous and self-righteous as well. You don't have to, but you can. Stosh

Okay, isn't it an oxymoronism to have an exception to a zero tolerance policy? Or maybe it's just a moronism. As far as the hatchet is concerned. I find that tool to be a bit useless. Either go with a full axe or 3/4 axe for the major splitting. File sharpened should be sufficient, relying on head weight to do the job. Then on the other end of the spectrum is the BELT axe. Very short handle, stone honed sharp. With 100% certainty one can split kindling the size of a #2 pencil safely and faster than anyone can fuzz a stick with a folding knife, lock blade, and/or Crocodile Dundee Bowie knife. As with any tool, if not properly taught, it can be a danger to the wielder. When belt axes are mentioned, 99% of the people I meet usually suck a large amount of air just before grasping at their chest. The other 1% just nod and smile knowingly. I carry a BSA sheath knife whenever I camp. On extended camping and or wilderness camping the belt axe/sheath knife combo is the tool of choice. I have been questioned at certain activities on the "legality" of such weaponry in certain councils. My only answer is, with the BSA written on various snaps and blades, it is pretty difficult to outlaw BSA equipment at BSA functions. When the canoe rolls in the rapids and the lashed on gear tangles the boys, the belt axe is the go to tool every time. I've never had to cut into a canoe bottom for rescuing anyone, but given a belt ax or folding knife, I'll take the belt axe. Stosh

If left to the boy's selection/election process and leave the adults out of the equation, one will find they do a rather nice job of leader selection. They often times do a lousy job of management selection however. A boy who does not know how to manage tasks very well can and often times is a good leader. They are the planners, the visionaries, the mother-hens, the one who feels the deepest about the boys having fun. He just can't figure out, or doesn't have the skills to make it happen. Thus through inspiration teamwork, he works with his buddies to make things happen. Too many adults dump on such boys because they can't get the job done, at least not according the to the adult expectation levels. They do well working with boys, the the management tasks get secondary priority because in their minds, people are more important than tasks. These people are not always the elected "leadership" of the troop, but they are the servant leadership glue that holds everything together. If adults stop and take a deep breath once in a while the would actually see this in action. Spend one or two meetings just watching the boys in action. Say nothing to no one, don't do anything except watch the boys. Take notes maybe, but keep watch for the duration of the meeting. See who's doing what, who's saying what, how the boys react to these things. And eventually it will become very plain, who's really leading and caring for the boys and who's trying to "run the show" and git 'er done because that's what they have been told leadership is, when it's not. Stosh

What do councils with fixed blade knife bans do about the kitchen tool which looks remarkably similar to a fixed blade knife? Oh, no sheath for it? Well it should have one if one wishes to be safe. But as long as all kitchen tools that look remarkably similar to fixed blade knives are okay, it's just a ruling of semantics, and has nothing to do with reality. I'm sure it helps a lot of people sleep better at night and as long as they don't watch the boys in the kitchen, they should be okay. Stosh

What's soot on the outside of a cooking vessel have to do with burnt food? And I have no idea if MattR understands the basic concepts of thermal science. A cooking pot with a shiny bottom reflect heat away and thus requires more fuel to cook the food. Black bottom absorb heat and thus require less fuel and thus cooks more efficiently. This is why Dutch ovens all are made with dark metals and mess kits outsides should not be overly cleaned. Just because it's sooty doesn't mean we don't wipe them off before storing away either in our chuck boxes or our backpacks. (Pssssst, DuctTape, do you think he bought that BS?) Stosh

Okay, I'm game, graduation from what? last Blue Gold? AOL? Cross-over? There are no ranks in Cub Scouts, only awards for the age specific programs. Is this to be done by the Pack, the Den, the boys??? End of year party? Having spent 2 years working my WB ticket on the Transition from Cub Scouting to Boy Scouting, tossing in a "graduation" right in the middle of that process allows a significant number of boys and parents know that they don't have to continue on in scouting. It's kinda like graduation from high school. The message is clear, one does NOT have to further their education with trade school or college. You no longer have to be part of the program. There's no way one is ever going to put lipstick on that pig and make it sell. Stosh

Okay, I'm way overboard with boy-led. The boys checked at home to see what week would be good for summer camp. Best they could come up with was X week of July. Okay. They then approached the SM (me) and said they had decided the best week of camp, do we have adults that can attend/drive, etc. Adults got together and said, yep it's a go for that week. Just a couple of tweak problems about ride/arrival for one family, but for the most part, it was green light. This information was relayed to the boys. End of discussion. "Our committee is setting the schedule for the next year.... such as which weekend every month is camping, which night is the PLC going to meet, when will we be holding COH, etc.... It seems to me that the PLC should be choosing these things..... BUT the parents on the committee make a good point, and with the SM right out front..... "I'll be d*#m& if I'm going to let a boy set my schedule....... Their point is that the adult's schedules really drive these things more than the boys', so we should be setting the plan, and then let them pick things such as "where" to camp" and what to eat....." Okay, we have the non-negotiated extremes here. Adults say this is the weekend for camping. Boys all say we have other things to do that weekend. End of activity. Adults: "Gee it was a really great idea that the boys recommended, and yet no one showed up! Shows how unreliable the boys can be..." Of course, the adults never take into consideration they submarined the idea with their scheduling. Don't need the boys to plan anything if they are dead in the water before they start. And for all those out there that want to know what Servant Leadership is all about.... well this is what it isn't: "the parents on the committee make a good point, and with the SM right out front..... "I'll be d*#m& if I'm going to let a boy set my schedule....... " The adults are running the show, unsupportive of the boys and they've cut off any dialog before they even meet with the boys. This is adult-led, pure and simple. If I were a parent wanting boy-led, the first person to go after a comment like that would be the SM "right out front".... I for one see no valid reason why the committee is involved in scheduling of activities at all. The CO provides the meeting room and everything else is dependent on where the boys want to go. The boys decide they want to camp at X spot. SM/ASM's work out the travel/adult commitments and away they go. No adults to drive? Then the boys don't go. I'm thinking the parents, exclusive of the committee, would come up with some rides/supervision if the boys asked them. The committee dictates the boys go camping every month. Boys decide not to camp for August, getting ready for school, extra sports/band practices, etc. So they say no camping in August. CC and committee go ballistic. So the boys put together a menu, make arrangements, line up drivers, waste everyone's time because they aren't going anyway. If the program is not exclusively adult-led (which some very successful troops find it possible) or exclusively boy-led (which some very successful troops find it possible) there is always the middle ground where the understanding is accepted that a program can't be a servant of two masters. There has to be defined lines in the sand. I think BP said, his line was, "Don't do anything a scout can do". Definitions flutter around every Roundtable as the what Adult-led/Boy-led mean all the time. I have one troop that the SM brags about how he tells his boys what to do and they get out there and git 'er done! To him that's what boy-led means. They are masters of following the SM thinking they are running the show. Leadership? Just ask yourself who serves who? Does the Pope hold the stirrup for the King, or does the King hold the stirrup for the Pope? Stosh

What's with the soap? That's why they come with a carrying case! No one like to go out camping with a "new" mess kit. The quicker it looked veteran, the better. Do you put soap on the outside of your Dutch oven, too? Stosh

As I have said, these books are a fantastic read, but this was back when there was real scouting going on. Wait until you get to the Tom Slade and Roy Blakeley books. The camp cook was a negro gentleman nicknamed Chocolate Drop, and one of the boys in (I think it was Roy's Silver Fox Patrol), was nicknamed Stut, the young man stuttered. I think the troop jester would be something like a GBB CheerMaster. I'm thinking Pee Wee, may have held position It tends to be a bit of Charlie Brown syndrome going on, A ton of boys all having fun and a distinct lack of adult supervision if much interaction at all. And the best part I always liked was summer camp lasted.... well, all summer! Now that I think about it more, Boomerscout, maybe I ought to just burn my collection before the black Expeditions show up at my front door. Stosh

Okay, it's been 50 years since I took swimming classes but I did get lifesaving certification which means one doesn't really use the back strokes other than for resting. The way I learned it was the more powerful back stroke brought your alternating arms out of the water to reach as far forward before pulling down with a kick. Not a lifesaving stroke, so not well versed in it. Just knew about it from swim team people. The elementary back stroke is where the hands don't come out of the water and work in parallel. The second illustration Horizon puts out there. The resting back stroke was where one laid in the water "resting" while skulling (little figure 8's) easily with the hands at the side and occasionally flutter kicking to make a bit of forward movement. One didn't go very fast, if much movement at all, but one can keep that stroke up all day long, covering quite a distance eventually. One doesn't have to arch their back as much as if they tried to remain totally afloat on the back. When swimming our mile for the test, we would use this stroke a lot when we got tired. Stosh

The weight to BTU ratio for alcohol is very poor. You might want to reconsider some of the more efficient fuels. By the way I have a manufactured alcohol burner and I use it in my presentations as an example of what never to buy. I would never use this stove other than demo purposes or maybe if it was a life/death situation. I lit it once and never again! Stosh

"...they are having a problem with their CO." That's pretty vague. I would find out EXACTLY what's going on before making any changes. If it is the CO that's being the tension creator, then that's one thing, but if the troop is being the tension creator, one would want to get as far away from them as possible. The CO might be insisting on boy-led, patrol-method. The troop is doing some push-back. Okay is that because of the adults or the scouts? Again, more information helps with the problem solution. Okay, the CO is insisting on the troop doing, X, Y and Z and the troop doesn't want to do it. Okay, more insight to making a decision. What if YOUR CO insists on the troop doing X, Y, and Z, and your committee thinks it a good thing. Want to take on a 100% gain in membership who isn't buying into your program? Get in touch with the DE, the UC, and set up dialogs with both CO's. This "merger" could be a really great thing for both units or it could be all the problems of the other troop have now infested your unit. Too many units walk blindly into situations and are side-blinded by it. I'm not at all saying that a merger isn't possible even if there are problems. If the other CO wants boy-led, patrol-method, your CO wants boy-led, patrol-method, your boys are all sold on boy-led, patrol-method, but the boys of the other troop are all adult-led, Eagle Mill, then I would suggest a long serious visit with the adults and boys of the other troop before jumping into anything permanent. Oh? The old SM of the other troop is a 30 year scouter who's stuck in his ways, but the merger means your SM takes over and the other troop thinks this is the bump they need to help the other troop boys be more responsible and develop leadership? Now discussions can start. As a UC, I just merged two troops this spring. Both dropped their CO's and found a third so both units are "getting a fresh start." It seems to be going well. I and the DE only had a minimal part of the process. One CO was an elementary school, so that future didn't really look all that bright, the other CO was a National Guard armory unit, again, tenuous in today's climate. The picked up the American Legion as the new CO. The folding unit didn't have a SM and so all-in-all, I think the situation will turn out okay all the way around. Stosh

The reason I do well with mess kit cooking is a number of years back I got really tired of the junk the boys were eating and as I got older it didn't always agree with me and my diet. So I went back to exclusively eating what I brought. I try and change it up so the boys, if they wish to eat better, can check out what I'm doing and maybe try it themselves next time. Even though I cannot buy in larger quantities like the patrols/troops can, I keep my costs below that of the boys. At summer camp I cook for the adults. It's one of the perks I have to get them to come. I cheat a bit on the mess kit end of it on occasion and use my #8 Dutch oven or a bit larger frypan for quick stir-fries. Stosh

As a Tiger Cub DL, I'm thinking the job is brand new and difficult even without the interruptions. " Why are we walking the trail that is muddy when the field is next to the trail is dry ?" Well, I would answer, "Mr. A--- brings up a really good point boys, what do you think? Why is it we as Scouts always stay on the trails even when it looks better someplace else?" Be sure to thank him for helping out with that important lesson for the boys. Some people are always going to be Level 4 conflicts generators. That's their nature and they love to play the game of pushing buttons. Once they find yours, you're in trouble. Just don't let them know what your buttons are. Tough to do, but important nonetheless. At first that kind of interruption is nerve-wracking, but remember, your reaction can either be emotional or intellectual. Your choice. If this does not help with the problem, maybe a sit down talk could help (probably not much in that it already sound like the has an alternative agenda going on anyway). Chances of solving Level 4 conflict is quite low. As a last resort, one might have to ask him to find another Pack for his son. It is not all that beneficial to harm the group trying to protect the one individual.

No adult would be suggesting the boys buy plastic utensils, cups and plates if they knew how to cook for oneself in the woods. Sure, a lot of troops troop-cook, some patrol-cook, but not many can feed themselves individually. A lot of troops have the trailers just because of the amount of restaurant gear they think they have to bring along as Lizardman says. When the boys get the fixin's for foil dinner meals, the boys wrap everything up in the foil and then proceed to burn half to the foil. I get out my mess kit, fry up the burger patty with the onions, boil the potatoes and carrots, Then I add some boiler water to the fry pan, add a bit of flour make a gravy, pick out the carrots from the potatoes, mash up the spuds, a bit of gravy on that, little brown sugar and butter on the carrots, and voila - dinner time! I have no aluminum foil with food all over it to try and dispose of either. Oh, the boys aren't doing dishes? Wipe out the mess kit into the fire using dried grass, rinse off in the river, cleansing rinse with canteen water and then put back on the fire to sanitize for a minute or so. For those that think this process is not proper cleaning, think about how one "cleans" the Dutch ovens. Is it not the same? Nothing better than biscuits and gravy first thing in the morning before the boys get up to their cold pancakes, Pop-Tarts, or oatmeal. I usually make breakfast while the boys are waiting for their Dutch oven coals to ashen up. Bisquick and blueberries (or whatever the woods has to offer at the time) make fantastic muffins, huge one in the mess kit as a Dutch oven as Lizardman says. The other nice thing about the mess kit is it's storage space. Toss the plastic cup that comes with it now days, Totally useless. Get a nice metal camp cup and use the boiler for storing sugar, flour, spices and such. It'll hold enough stuff for a long weekend with no problem. My very first activity as a Boy Scout was a hike and a meal prepared in my mess kit. I haven't found a good reason to change my ways after 50 years. Stosh

Maybe it was a good thing the troop folded, looks like it pretty much lost it's whole vision of scouting along the way. Just too many things that leave a rather unpleasant taste in ones' mouth. Stosh

MattR, I think you finally see the point. Even with a troop that is not even close to GBB status, you are at the point where you actually TRUST your boy leadership and can as an option reduce the real NEED of having to have a ton of adults there. I didn't say one can't HAVE more adults, I'm just saying they aren't NEEDED! I have never had the need for more than two adults on any outing doesn't mean other adults weren't there, they just hung around like screen doors on submarines and ash trays on motorcycles. They weren't needed until it was time to go home and then they were helpful in driving vehicles. 50 boys 2 adults, the 850 other adults that brought the boys and the gear up, head off to the Holiday Inn and hot tub 30 miles further down the road. There they can enjoy wine with their steak dinner and relax around the pool if they wish. Why? BECAUSE THEY AREN'T NEEDED. The boys are doing just fine with a couple of adults hanging around drinking coffee in case of an emergency, they will call 911 because none of the other boys are capable of doing that. One does not need to be Nazi GBB to run a program where the boy are trusted leaders and are trained to the level of being able to take care of themselves in the woods. As a matter of fact, every FC scout should easily fit that definition. If not, I would question the Eagle Mill mentality of the troop. T-FC in the first year is not an ideal for all boys. No wonder the adults don't trust the boys especially when they realize they haven't trained them well enough to be trusted. I definitely count boys when I count leadership heads in my troops. Summer camp - 2 adults grab a freebie week in the woods! 15-25 boys, all trained and can handle themselves in the woods. Camp staff coming out of your ears, programs galore, What's the need for SM and ASM? NOTHING! except the camp made them come! I get a lot of reading done that week. Stosh

What you and I think is reasonable is not part of the issue. Mr. Dundas is a free man who can do whatever the law allows him to do. I may not like it, but I'll defend whatever freedoms he's entitled to by law. And not knowing what state law says where he is (it varies from state to state) "reasonable" may be a word that is no longer part of his vocabulary. Knowing what I know about his world, I just thought it was nice he and his wife were supporting the program. Period. I also think Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, and Kind, mean a lot to me, That's 1/3rd of the Scout Law, I don't think should be set aside to accommodate one's biases. Stosh

If 50 kids equates to 50 kids with no leadership skills then having two adult scouters is not going to be enough. Let's say the 50 kids are using the patrol-method and have say 5 patrols. That's 10 youth leaders to start with (PL/APL), that's 20% of the group. Okay, with that many scouts, one would probably have an SPL/ASPL combo. 10 youth leaders. I'm sure there's a QM with that many, maybe a Scribe, TG for the new guys, etc. I'm thinking one could tally maybe 25-30% of the troop are leaders. Add in the two adult leaders, solid 30%. Okay, now where's the justification for adding more adult leaders? One is already heavy with a substantial percent of leaders already. Oh? The boys don't count? They're really not leaders? They haven't been Trained? They can't be trusted to lead? Let's just say I'm assuming that I'm not GBB incarnate, but just running the BSA program as prescribed. Boy-led, patrol-method. My ASM and I do very nicely if done according to the BSA training for adult leaders. Otherwise, I would strongly suggest the Cub Scout model and have every scout accompanied by their parent. That way one doesn't need training, they don't need to train the boys in leadership skills, and the added expense of artificial POR patches can be saved for a bigger camp trailer and more gear. Once a troop hits the woods, it become very obvious, very quickly, what group dynamics they operate under. It's an enjoyable event to watch. Pull up a chair and just sit and watch the troop next to you for say maybe 15 minutes. Oh? The SPL and ASPL are first out of the vehicles, the QM heads for the trailer, the boys packline their equipment and PL's are staking out their sites? And the SM and ASM are still sitting in the vehicles finishing off their coffee? If they are going to be that useless, why in the world did they even come? The troop on the other side, the SM and ASM are the first out directing the PL's to their sites while the QM is dragging all the equipment out 300' to each of the patrol site because some goof-ball told the SM it would be good to have 300' between patrols. The troop trailer gets dropped off by the adults site of which there are at least a dozen adults standing around looking for their packs. Then they drive around to all the patrol sites and drop off the scouts gear. If the 300' suggestion isn't followed, then it saves a lot on gas because then the boys just drag their gear out of the vehicles parked over by the adult site. Of course the dads are then close enough to help their boy drag is load to his tent site which is even better. The adults start putting up the dining fly, the big one, the weather is threatening and the boys are gonna need shelter. Correct me if I'm wrong, But yes, some troops need more than 2 adults along on an activity.....and you don't need to be GBB to figure out why. Stosh

Well, maybe next time the scouts will do more due diligence in finding a different place to hold their fundraiser if they are so overly concerned. I don't know of many churches that will throw people out. As a matter of fact, I haven't found one yet that would. On the other hand if this is the church fundraiser the boys are helping at for service project hours, maybe they should find something other than a church that is more in line with their values. Stosh