Stosh

With kids that age, it's impossible to keep any sort of quiet for more than 2 minutes at a time. I would suggest you have one leader stand up front with "sign's up" for the duration of your program. Even then I wouldn't guarantee all bedlam wouldn't break loose eventually. This is not a battle you want to die in the ditch for! I did find one issue that might help. Whenever I would do Blue/Gold banquet presentations, (granted I had a bit more exciting program than awards), I would always talk quietly to the group. The louder I would talk, the louder they would become in the back. Talk quietly and they will all shut up if they wish to hear. Also if those that can't hear, turn around and do the "looks that kill" stare, it does wonders for quieting down crowds. Another solution? Have those that want to hear what's going on sit in the front rows. Stosh

Previous troop only went out Friday-Sunday leaving Sunday evening and Monday for family. Current troop only has activities on Memorial Day am at parade/cemetery and then regular meeting in the evening. Not everyone gets national holidays off either. Stosh

For 15 years I worked as ASM with a SM that had the opposite priority than I did. He was adult-led, troop-method and I wasn't. After 15 years I had had enough (nothing ever was obvious to the boys) but I quietly took SM position in another troop. Well, the boy-led, patrol-method wasn't what the parents wanted and I was let go. However, the adult-led, troop-method wasn't either and he was let go from his SM position after 20 years there. The "tension" between us, have been sufficient that we tempered each other's actions. In any case, every situation needs to be evaluated for it's own sake. Now I have a COR, CC, committee and ASM that are all 100% boy-led, patrol-method and things are going very well with the new troop. Sometimes everyone on the same page is a good thing, sometimes not is a good thing. It just depends on the maturity level of the adults and whether or not it is setting a bad example for "lead by example". Stosh

Definitely go where your boy wants to go and have the most fun! There's no rule you HAVE to go to a certain Pack. You get to pick. For 15 years I drove 40 miles to a Boy Scout unit that I liked as ASM. I switched to a new troop I've just stared and now only have to drive about 20 miles. And two of my 6 boys live within 1 mile of me and make the trip each week as well. Stosh

Oh, by the way, this is the scenario I used for the final campout of my Webelos II boys before moving on into Boy Scouts. A few modifications, i.e. canoed 15 minutes out to a no-facilities island, camped for the weekend, canoed back home. Boys loved it, and so did the dads. Stosh

As one who has been involved in multiple troops, all were into water trips. We always did the sandbar camping thingy where there were no "facilities", water, etc. - totally primitive camping. We did teach the boys to build their own latrines, something that has basically dropped out of scouting literature, but was one of the roster items when I was a kid. We didn't do the safe-swim processes because the rivers with sandbars tend to be quite shallow and finding a place in the river where the water was over their head was quite difficult to do. The boys were all swimmers (BSA tested) and wore floatation devices whenever they were within 5' of the water. They could be "swimming", fishing, or canoeing/kayaking. Didn't make any difference, you wore the floatation. Been doing that for 30+ years, never had an issue. Anyone that broke the rules, simply didn't participate anymore in such "risky" adventures. Had the SM's son think he was above the rules and went swimming without his floatation. SM thought it was "no big deal" until the next trip planned couldn't find an ASM or second leader/parent of any kind willing to take the risk if his boy were to go on the trip. He was told if he wanted to take a family outing with his son and take the responsibility of watching out for him, that's fine. But as a scouting activity, the rules were there for a reason and if the SM decided it was a "family" outing, he could take his wife as a backup none of us wanted any part of it. And yes, I have seen an ASM and his wife take the scouts out on water activities where the rules didn't apply, but as SM these outings were never recorded as scout outings. No travel permits, etc. were filled out and he was on his own. Stosh

One can always cite personal stories of people they knew/know who work it out or don't work it out. In my broken family I have one son who has disconnected himself totally from the family and last I heard was still doing the drug scene. My daughter graduated Valedictorian of her class. So, how does that swing the trends? Sure one can apply examples of how heterosexual groupings don't work out and homosexual groupings do. It really doesn't do much for the problem except politicize it. The problem is not the issue of family, community, or whatever, it's an issue of personal responsibility towards a relationship. Abusers have adopted a certain lifestyle and are in no hurry to make any changes. It works for them. It doesn't make much difference if it's physical abuse, emotional abuse, drug abuse, alcohol abuse, financial/gambling abuse, you name it, it's the result of someone not committed to a relationship. It's total narcissism. It happens in families, it happens in marriages, it happens in dating, it happens in the work force. You name it, there's someone out there that is basically looking out for themselves and their next punch, fix, drink, target, etc. Like the male who took no responsibility, and plans on taking no responsibility for his children. Does it make any difference what kind of an abuser he is. The problem is not the abuse, the problem is this guy is totally into only himself that he has no interest in any thing that doesn't makes him content with the world. Everything around him is collateral damage. The first assumption in any relationship is the people involved care about other people. It applies to communities, teams, families, marriages, dating, brotherhoods, even gangs, etc. I've done enough professional counseling in my lifetime to know that unless someone is really committed to correcting their abusive behavior, they have no intention of ever trying. It never has anything to do with "loving" someone else, it's basically nothing more than looking out for oneself and finding people around that will help them in that process. Stosh

That's why I'm still certified as a Red Cross Adult First Aid/CPR/AED. But of course that doesn't count for the Wilderness First Aid. Stosh

Now, if they start a program for training parents of scouting, that would be great, but I have enough on my plate with working with their kids. This is why a well trained committee can field these concerns on the part of the parents, and yet they are not trained in helping parents become better parents either. That sounds great and I would assume it to be very successful, but I have broken homes, clingy moms in conflict with adventurous dads, and a whole raft full of "Gee it would be nice to be able to hold the parents hands and help them through this difficult time." It is admirable what you are trying to do. I think it would be great for all committees to have such a class for their parents or maybe the parent coordinator could take on that responsibility. Being there for the boys to support them in their activities is what the SM is there to do. If one has to divide their attention in too many different ways, then everything gets short-changed in the long run and the SM burns out. And what it all boils down to is the conflict between the youth activity and the parents. The boys want in on the activity and the parents may nor may not "allow" it. I can see the parent jumping on the coach's case for not letting their son play more and they feel he isn't developing fast enough to be able to gain an athletic scholarship to a good school. Of course they don't allow the boy to travel with the traveling team because he doesn't like being away from home for very long at a time, is a picky eater and may not get fed well enough, etc. Just try and imagine what the response of the coach would be in a case like that? At least I'm not going to kick the boy out because of the parent's attitudes. My #1 goal (and probably only goal) is to do what it takes for the boys to have an opportunity to grow up. The majority of parents are on board with this, but one will always run into a few that simply cannot accept it for their dear little boy. It's difficult but not impossible to deal with them, but if they are vocal enough and stir the pot to their agenda, they'll have you removed. Stosh

While no longer certified as an EMT-A at the national level, I find it rather strange I would have to take Wilderness First Aid to take my boys into the back country. After all, shouldn't the boys know first aid or was that just pencil whipping for requirements/MB? While I'm not going to promote myself as a know it all, I have had many experiences in emergency trauma that were far worse than any worse case scenario in the back country. At least the training will help when deciding whether this situation is a rescue or a recovery and whether or not one needs to tell the boys to run or walk for help. Stosh

I often wonder how many marriages would be strong today if the commitment to stay married was as strong as the commitment to get married? Marriage used to be more than just two people getting together. It meant having a family. It's difficult enough to have a commitment to a relationship without having the encumbrance of rug rats. Stosh

"Community seems to be nearly as important as two parents. Lots of adults watching lots of kids. Parents helping parents. We can measure divorce rate but I'm not sure we can measure community. If my troop was part of a bigger community it would be that much stronger." The "ME" generation and those following have pretty much done away with what would be considered community, 50 years ago. We haven't been a community based society since the mid 1960's. Divorce is only a symptom of this problem. The last block party I attended was in the early 1970's. Along with divorce, mobility, and paranoia have helped with the breakdown of these relationships. I often wonder where the traditional dating routines went? Where does one learn about marriage, commitment, and avoidance of divorce when there are so few examples of it left. Now we have created other substitute institutions to replace what has been lost. Gay marriages, sport teams, gangs, social networks, etc. so that people can think they have some sort of belonging relationships in their lives even if it's only for a short period of time. Long term commitments? Well, they are pretty much passe now. Stosh

The long-term impact on children can be quite complicated. Of my 7 children, all from broken homes (my 3 and my wife's 4) 1) Son: Into drugs, can't hold a job, has a daughter and is not married. No contact with family. 2) Daughter: College educated, stay at home mom, married with one child 3) Daughter: Valedictorian, college drop out, married, working, child on the way. 4) Daughter: MBA single but dating, Successful business consultant. 5) Daughter: MD, divorced, no children. Doing her residency now. 6) Daughter: PhD, single, but dating, just starting a new job. Biomechanical engineering working for a pharmaceutical company 7) Son: Single but dating, College educated working as electrical engineer. All are in their late 20's/early 30's. Statistically they are all over the place. However, it is noticeable that only two of my kids are married working on family. One has family out of wedlock and one is already divorced, no kids. The rest "date" but are well into their careers and still single, "family" doesn't seem to be much of a option for most of them. My two daughters (#2, #3) are the only ones really interested in a traditional family. If this limited pool of information has any implications for the future generations, I'm thinking that family and marriage may be going by the wayside in our culture. Only a very small percentage of people in America today live in a natural mom, dad, and children household. I grew up in that culture, but my children did not. Stosh

The local community celebration in town is sponsored by the American Legion. Alcohol is served and the boys man one of the non-alcohol booths serving food. The beer tents (yes, plural) are located within 50' of where the boys are. They are in full uniform and being a small community everyone knows the American Legion is sponsoring them. Of course the Girl Scouts are busing the tables at the chicken-que. All registration for the boys and girls for scouting is paid fully by the Legion for their help. That doesn't mean they don't also contribute heavily for any Eagle projects as well. Boys need equipment, just ask. All other organizations have to pay a percentage of their fundraising earnings to the American Legion, including other Boy Scout Troops. Stosh

As one who has been divorced.... I can safely say that there's nothing so bad in the marriage that divorce can't make it worse. Yes, kids of broken homes sometimes grow up to be okay, some don't. I had hoped for more for my kids than just being okay. 2 of the three children have remained connected to the family, the third's whereabouts is unknown to anyone in the extended family. I was a grandfather for 6 months before I knew it. There was no marriage involved in that relationship. Currently remarried to a divorcee. Between the two of us we fully understand the implications of divorce and will do anything it takes the make it work. Wish I was that committed 35 years ago when I was young and foolish. I grew up with parents that were married for 54 years before my mother's passing. I wish my kids would have known what I know. Stosh

With all the boys handling fixed blade knives in the kitchen, why in the world would BSA not be doing fix blade training as part of the Totin' Chit? Serious, this is a major gap in training. If one has to go outside the troop to get such training as Barry suggests, then it's time to get the subject back on the discussion table. If one is to be proficient in the use of knives in the kitchen, it only goes to prove they should be just as proficient outside the kitchen with them as well. Stosh

It just depends on how wound the local officials are and how bigotted they are as to whether they allow outside groups of any kind to use public property, i.e. the school. I'd say, rent to all. No problem. The problem lies in renting only to those that conform to certain expectations. Sorry, if they rent the room they can do anything the members want with it. Otherwise, shut it all down and use the school for school only. Go back and read thread #3. Stosh

Yeah, it's kinda hard to outlaw stuff sold in the BSA Shop. Yet somehow they think it's okay. Special training and setup for fixed blade knives? Okay, there's the paring knife, rather short, but will still cut fingers. Then the boning knife, bit longer, may stretch the 6" limit, then there's the butcher, got to believe that's +6", ham knife, some of those go into the 8-9" lengths, the Ninja length knives. Then there's the fillet knife. If it isn't razor sharp it isn't going to help clean fish. They have a sheath that people like say, maybe fishermen can use for a shore lunch maybe? Then there's the fixed blade, serrated butter and/or steak knife. While overlooked regularly by the BSA as dangerous, it is the shim of choice in some of our more formidable housing establishments. What about those camp spoon, fork, knife combo things. They come in a belt attachable sheath. Those can be sharpened to quite a good edge too. I'm thinking kids today ought to be taught to eat with their fingers. It's far safer than giving them utensils that look remarkably similar to fixed blade knives. There's gonna be a lot of angry women out there that are going to blame BSA for not teaching their husbands how to use fixed blade knives correctly in the kitchen. There's nothing worse that a woman with fire in her eyes and a butcher knife in her hand coming towards you with the intent of teaching you say maybe a culinary lesson? Stosh

Well, back when I was a scout, it would seem that everyone musta wore different shorts that didn't seem to bundle up as much as it does for a lot of people today. Yep, way back when we had our own room at the school that was called, well, you're not gonna believe this, but it was the Scout Room. Said so on the door. And we got to play in the gym before the meeting too. Yep, must be cuttin' back on the material used in shorts today. That was back in the days when the majority ruled in this country, not the whiny minority.

2005 was like almost 10 years ago??? Maybe 8 1/2 or maybe 9 years ago. Long time ago, So now with this being 2014...."I've never heard of a scout unit being chartered by a school.... (maybe it was the case 10 years ago, but not now.) So then there's no difference." Gotta read what's written. Helps keep the dialog going without needing to resort to personal attacks.

This is why kids don't walk to school or ride their bikes. This is why they are made to be paranoid about every boogie man behind every tree. This is why mom's shackle their kids to the grocery cart. You can't talk to strangers, not even the nice lady in line ahead of you. I raised my kids to be alert, aware and prepared. My one daughter is conceal carry. The other one, well, one just wouldn't do well to mess with her. She lives in Chicago and has adapted well. Paranoia is not nor ever was part of their training curriculum. Ever notice that parents who are afraid of dogs have children that are afraid of dogs? And parents who are not adventurous have kids that aren't adventurous? And parents who are socially shy have kids that are socially shy? And parents who are paranoid about every social evil in the world have kids that are paranoid as well? As my daughter would have put it, taking general precautions against the unknown, unseen risk, but taking specific actions, like taking the safety off, when the risks are apparent. One doesn't need to go looking for trouble or making trouble for someone else, there's enough other trouble out there that one doesn't need to be making more. I understand the concern, I just don't understand the overreaction. Stosh

I've never heard of a scout unit being chartered by a school. So then there's no difference. Stosh