Stosh

If my calculations are correct, you have enough for 2 patrols, with one extra or 3 patrols, one patrol shy one member. 17 is a difficult number to deal with. Put all the boys into one room, tell them they need 2 or 3 PL's and 2 or 3 APL's and 2 or 3 patrols minimum of 6, maximum of 8 or 3 patrols of 6 with one patrol short one member. The first new boy in the troop automatically goes to that patrol. When they have figured it out, they can come out and tell the SM/ASM what it's going to be from now on as far as patrol structure. 3 patrols of 6 or 2 patrols of 8. Odd man out on the 2 patrol selection would make him ad hoc SPL. That should solve it. All the excuses as to why it won't work goes out the window. It's up to them to figure it out and make it work. Excuses and threats are only for the adults. No adults involved, no excuses, no threats, just results. This is their chance to structure the patrols way they want them to be structured. If it doesn't work out, it's no one's fault but their own. Can't even blame it on the adults. If they don't like doing it themselves, let them know up front that there will be two patrols. Either 1) picked by adults randomly or 2) two patrols sorted out by them. Option 1: That way no one's happy. Option 2: at least they had their chance to make it the way they want it. This is their chance, better make the most of it. Why in the world would adults be fighting over this? This is what boy-led patrol-method is all about, the boys make decisions on such simple matters and adults mind their own business which is probably more important than patrol membership selection. Stosh

I would think one would have to make a banner. I think BSA only sells flags. Most hardware stores have grommet kits and fabric stores sell whatever kind of cloth you might need in both red and white. Stosh.

God = MY god. god = YOUR god. It's not like it's his name or anything, it's just a noun used to describe one's deity. The distinction being, my god vs. your god, as if any of the major religions allow you to "own" god in the first place. The "my god/your god" discussion is only for political posturing. Ever wonder why god never told us his name? If one knows someone's name they have power over them. If I'm standing in front of a crowd of people and say stand on one foot and whistle Dixie. Everyone will smile and pretty much ignore me except for a few who think it might be fun. But if I know someone in the crowd by name and say, "John Smith, stand on one foot and whistle Dixie", the only one who will be affected by the comment is John Smith. Thus no one knows god's name because no one can have that much control over him/her. Ever wonder why all the Biblical talk about god knowing and remembering one's name? Ever wonder why god refused Moses' request for his name? It all makes perfectly good sense to me. Most of the bigotry, hatred, animosity, whatever, is not a result of multiple gods, but of multiple traditions we use to be able to say my god is better than your god. It even works within a single religion. One has Orthodox Jews and Reformed Jews for example, and can anyone count how many different flavors of Christianity and Islam are out there? So then one is called upon to do an invocation for a gathering. The first jumped-to conclusion is we gotta play nice for the "non-whatever I happen to be" people. If I'm an Evangelical or Baptist, I'm going to probably rankle the Roman Catholics more than the Jews and Muslims who basically are ignoring what I may say anyway. The problem is not the religion, the problem is the traditions about religion that cause the most harm. I can live with the wisdom of god's moral code of ethics, but I surely have many problems about the one's created by human "wisdom". As an ordained minister, most people in my council/district do not know that. Those that do and have asked me to provide clergy/chaplain functionality to an event have always received a respectful and polite "no, thank you", from me. Do I still counsel and do ministry for individuals or groups of like tradition people? Yep, but I stay away from the political side of the whole issue. Which is kinda what I'm not doing on this thread. Stosh

Maybe because Campfire Girls make more campfires than Girl Scouts.... ???? Stosh

It's too bad you have an adult-led troop. Any time one lets adults have a say so, they have a tendency to pull stunts like this. Sad part of it all, when the boys learn of the injustice, the lesson will be, this is how one is supposed to act once they get to be adults. You learned a good lesson on good-old-boys politics. Remember it, you will someday be asked to participate. I'd recommend sticking to your honor and your oath as a scout. Stosh

So what's that got to do with anything being legal? I think infanticide is immoral too, but there's a lot of laws that make it legal. So what it boils down to is the individual's moral code has zero impact on governmental legislation. Sometimes one gets lucky and they are in sync. But it's probably just a coincidence. Stosh

Legality is not a spiritual issue it is an earthly governmental issue. There's no rule that says earthly laws have to have anything to do with any moral code. Do I go to Hell because I don't pay my parking fine? The argument is ridiculous. And if the Biblical principles are to be followed, every 49 years all slaves are set free. So where's it's legal is not following any moral principle within the Judeo-Christian tradition anyway. Stosh

These gentlemen are at conflict level 4 - Game. Deep down they enjoy the fight. Level 5 - Divorce... game over and someone has to go!, and I don't see after this long of a history either of them wants the other one out of the game. Fun's over if one leaves. These guys thrive on the drama. Stepping in to referee is only enabling them. Getting them to stop is just about impossible. Having them move their little game somewhere else (as far away from the troop as possible) is always a good resolution. If someone in the troop doesn't take on the role of Alpha Male or Alpha Female, these dogs is gonna fight forever. Sounds like one of the two is a regular in 2-deep with not many other options. If one doesn't think for a moment that this person isn't fully aware of that, guess again! You are on the ropes. Good luck. Stosh

Morally speaking a sleeve of thin mints is not a serving. Stosh

That, my friend is one of the best things about our country. I'm thinking that with all the hassle back in Europe for just this reason, it was included in our basic Bill of Rights! Sometimes politicians, even the newbies at it, can get it right. Stosh

Theists believe there is a God, Atheists believe there is no God. Nothing more than opposite sides of the same coin. The both believe there is or isn't a God. Neither can empirically prove their position so they both have to rely on faith to make it work for them. Stosh

The nice thing about a God with no name, whatever the speaker uses for an identifier, it works for me. I know who he/she's talking about. Like Paul indicated to the people of Athens as he walked around looking at all their idols. There was one there dedicated to the "unknown god". They identified all they could, but had the one extra to make sure all their bases were covered. Paul seemed to know who this unnamed god really was. Stosh

The promise is not the moral values. It's how I react to the moral values. This is why the two are separate and different. Stosh

When has that ever stopped anyone? Stosh

I am unsure of how some of the religions "name" their god, but there's a real hang up on the convention. Jews, Christians, and Muslims pretty much just use a made up name and get all bent out of shape when that made up name is challenged. God is not his name, Allah is not his name. Jehovah is not his name. When Moses asked God what his name was, he said, "I am", or in other words, I am who I am and it's none of your business to know my name. So when people invoke the "name" of their god in the Judeo-Christian-Islam tradition, they are basically trying to call upon a god with no name. However, by Jewish standards (being precursor and basis for Christian and Islamic traditions) the word name is not defined as meaning identifier, but by the alternative meaning which means the person's power. My name speaks for itself, referring to one's honor and strength of personality, not your name used to identify you. In the Judeo-Christian tradition it makes more sense to use the word power instead of name when translating scripture, but not many people know this. When we "pray in the name of Jesus" it could just as easily be said, "pray in the power of Jesus". "Thou shall not take the name of the Lord in vain" is not the scout that uses the expletive "Jesus!" when he "swears", but the SM rattles his cage about it. But when the scout says "damn you" he is implying God's wrath be upon you, which is indeed using God's name/power in vain/improperly, and he never used the phrase "God damn you", so he gets a pass by the SM. Dang is the politically correct substitute word for damn. Every time your scout says, "Dang it" they are in actuality breaking the commandment, but they will vehemently deny it. Therefore if anyone wishes to do an invocation, (to invoke the presence of one's god) all they need to is pray for the presence of .... well, any word would do seeing how we don't actually know god's name anyway. However, that doesn't really help those who get all bent out of shape based on some obscure tradition they seem to be hooked up with. Stosh

How does one know the expectations of a MBC if they haven't talked with them and think they have half the work done? I'm thinking that's a bit presumptuous. I used to be a MBC, but it got to be such a "political-parental-interfering-long-drawn-out-scout-never-came-back-for-second-meeting-stood-up-for-meetings" kind of process it wasn't worth it anymore. Stosh

The only real difference I see is: "A Scout is..." vs. "I will do my best to be...". The rest is just platitudes compared to these opening words. "I am a scout, I am trustworthy" says one thing and "I am a scout and I do my best to be trustworthy". Sorry, but the GSUSA words just don't do much for me. Stosh

When I was award chair for my son's pack (1993) we racked up $800+ worth of awards. There were tables of awards and they were handed out as mentioned above. Well... I WAS BORED TO TEARS! If this is an issue of respect, maybe the program planners need to show a bit of respect to the audience of small boys and their parents. The DL gets up and says, our boys earned # of Readyman, # of Traveler, etc. and after 30 seconds have the audience offer up a round of applause for your boys that stood up in the audience to get recognition. Then move on to the next den. 15 dens? Even 20 minutes (1+ minute per den) would be a LOOONNNNGGG time for such stuff. These people came to celebrate scouting, get to the food, the cake and the program. Awards can be an afterthought, not the focal point of a 2 hour ordeal. Stosh

Okay, so I'm assuming you are actively engaged in going after the Sons of Norway, Sons of Union Veterans, etc.? Yep, we finally agree on something. Omission of information, white lies, flat out lies, half-truths, are all the same in the eyes of the law. Only political bigots and hypocrites draw spin definition distinctions. As I have stated before, discrimination does not automatically mean hate as so many rush to point out as you have as well. All it means is people are awaree of differences and make personal allowances for it. That freedom of choice is a constitutionally protected right. Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of happiness. You pick your friends, you pick where you live, you pick what activities you participate in, you pick what religion you wish to follow, etc. Just because I DON'T pick something doesn't make me evil incarnate. "But what's wrong with being...." So now you are into judgmental distinctions. Eventually, you will be able to spin the conclusion that because I think in a certain way, I'm am evil incarnate. Fortunately, I don't think anyone other than you need to worry about what you deem right and wrong. I for one don't lay awake nights worrying about what you think is right or wrong. Stosh

Every individual discriminates in one form or another as do groups. Get over it. Disney discriminates against BSA, BSA discriminates against atheists and homosexual leaders. So everything negative said about BSA can correctly be leveled against Disney. If someone or group doesn't want to contribute to BSA, no problem. If someone or group wants to boycott Disney, no problem. Everyone who buys local and only products "Made in America" are not bigots and members of any hate group against foreigners. Of course there are those out there that would like you to think that. Stosh

Sounds like it has potential. Stosh

In that general area is probably one of the best whitewater rivers in Wisconsin. Brule River is a three day run from Stone's Bridge to Lake Superior with one short portage (100') around the eel dam. Second day trek has great rapids known as the Ledges. I would not recommend running that particular rapids with new scouts. Just portage it, not a big deal. Older boys would appreciate the rush. I have witnessed 72 year old women who are fairly good kayakers make it with no problem. If you rent, they require helmets and skirts for the kayakers and helmets for the canoeists who want to run the Ledges. The whole river is pristine trout fishing and has some great newbie canoe/kayaker rapids, level 2 is max. There are two DNR campgrounds in the area and a city park in Nabagomon that has camping. All are nice. Stay away from Memorial Day weekend, the Sierra Club comes in and there are hundreds of people on the river at that time. I have gone up there in August and pretty much had the place to ourselves. If your boys are into nature and natural beauty, this is definitely the river to take. The Brule from Lake Superior to it's headwaters, short portage to the St. Croix River, are the rivers that connected Lake Superior to the Mississippi River just like the Fox/Wisconsin connect Lake Michigan to the Mississippi. The Ice Age Trail cuts through the Brule/St. Croix portage. The other river I have done in the area is the Flambeau River, more middle of the state. There are maps for some of the more difficult rapids. You will definitely need the maps! If the map says stay to the left, you will regret not being there. Definitely need more experienced scouts. This is definitely not for the Parlor Scouts. Park Falls has a city campground near the local Troop meeting place. People find multiple stretches of the river to their level of expertise and enjoyment. If you decide on the Brule, let me know! My wife and I provide a guide service to scout troops. It's free, just an excuse for her and I to go up there yet again. She's a forester/naturalist by training and an excellent kayaker. I have had experience with both canoe and kayak on the river. I have only been on the Flambeau once, but my wife has done it annually for years. I'm not sure, but I think the Mrs. has been on the St. Croix/Namekogan as well. Stosh

ALCubmom, my apologies. The signs up was supposed to be dripping in sarcasm. No one wants to stand there with their arm in the air for more than a minute at a time. As a matter of fact, I don't ever use sign's up, even when I had Webelos boys. They all knew what it meant, but would always be respectful for me for not using it in the first place. I do think Sidney has the right idea. If the boys are quiet for the CM but not the DL's then maybe the CM should read the names and the DL's hand out the awards to the boys and shake hands. This way the crowd can't dis the DL's. Try a few things differently. Change it up a bit. Boys will pay attention if something new is possibly coming their way. No one wants to be goofing off and miss something their buddies are having fun with. Stosh