Stosh

One of the interesting things about this whole cycle of BSA administration was the fact that Baden-Powell chose the military terms Scout and Patrol to reflect what the ultimate goal of the program encompassed. A patrol was an independent small group of men who were sent out on reconnaissance scouting missions. They were self sufficient and able to meet any and all diverse situations they encountered all without the assistance of the main supply of the army. I'm thinking the basic BSA scout in today's society would find it difficult to exist in such an environment if it were more than a short walk to the mess hall. Today's patrols of 6-8 boys think they have leadership in their PL, but the 2-deep adult presence guarantees that will NEVER HAPPEN as it once did. Everything is now oriented to adult-led no matter how one wishes to define it to give the appearance that the boys are running anything. Yes, I remember as a scout camping as a patrol of my buddies on a regular basis without adults present. That all changed soon after I left scouting in the late '60's early '70's. Maybe we have a program today that produces paper patrols to go along with the paper scouts who eventually if they get enough check marks get to be paper eagles. From my experience over the past 30 years of adult scouter activity, one has to break every G2SS rules in order to do it the way scouting was originally set up by BP. Stosh

To me, Scout Spirit is basically an adopted way of life. Kind of like a filter I pass everything through to make life's decisions. To a certain extent the Oath and Law design the filter in a certain way. Am I being kind to others? Is this an opportunity for me to be courteous to someone? Someone's in need of some help, am I capable of providing that? Does what I do make a difference in other people's lives or only my own? A boy who's reflective filter allows room for issues other than one's own, might be on the right track for Scout Spirit. If the whole world revolves just around oneself, I'm thinking they haven't yet understood what Scout Spirit is all about. If servant leadership is defined as taking care of someone other than just oneself, then Scout Spirit is measured in how much leadership is one demonstrating to the world around them. Stosh

I wouldn't think a step-parent would be a legal guardian unless s/he has adopted the boy, legally of course. Stosh

If all one is doing is training boys for specific jobs, then any management program will work. Basically all management is FOLLOWING directions on getting a job/task done. It doesn't require any LEADING in the process. This works just fine until as IM_Kathy points out, something deviates from the norm. So add a bit of problem solving and now you have a real leader??? Nope, all you have is a manager that can solve problems. One can do that all by themselves and needs no one to follow. Leadership implies people following the person, not a just a set of steps to accomplish a task. It involves people and having them willingly follow. This is where the management training falls apart. You have a responsibility to run the patrol as PL. You set up the duty roster and plug in names. The boys only elected you as you were previously popular, but now that PL has gone to your head, they have resolved themselves to tough it out until they get a chance to elect some other person. The PL has managed his task well and has posted his roster on the campsite bulletin board. No one even bothers to look at it. Nothing gets done and so now the only recourse if to start handing out demerits and punishments for not following orders. On the other hand another boy is the Grubmaster this weekend. He's in the kitchen area whipping up breakfast for the boys and realizes the guys have used up all the water and the jugs empty. He calls out to his buddy nearby and says, "Hey, Joe, need some water. Wanna be a sport and get me some so I can get breakfast out right away?" Joe's hungry, he knows the Grubmaster is doing his best and so he pitches in. So, who demonstrated more leadership and still got the task done without any management skills whatsoever? If the Grubmaster had good management skills he would have made sure he had water before he started making breakfast. Stosh

Guide to Safe Scouting doesn't sound like policy mandates when they use the word Guide in the title. if the woman says the guy next to her is her husband, then if he's not, you're off the hook because she has fraudulently misled you. Just hope and pray it never gets into a court of law to sort out all the proper definitions/interpretations and you're listed on the paperwork as the defendant. Stosh

I think you are on the right path TAHAWK. I don't think most adults are capable of trusting young men to do the right things at the right time. In other cultures, boys of Scout age would be considered adults, but we don't follow that norm. We wail and gnash our teeth when we hear of child labor in certain countries, where these "children" are actually adults working for a living long before we determine them to be old enough to do so. Child soldiers are operating in certain places in the world and we abhor such practices. Yet the Taliban is recruiting "children" as we speak because they can pass under our tainted radar. These young men are children only because we say so, not because that is the reality of the situation. Adolescence in America exists only by definition. I allow my boys my full trust until they prove differently which is pretty much the opposite of most people in our culture. As a result, I have very little disciple problems to contend with, my job is a whole lot easier, and I find the progress of their maturity is accelerated overall. I actually enjoy the boys more as peers than child/adult relationships. The vast majority of boys figure this out rather quickly and will do just about anything to protect that bond of trust and respect I afford to them. Only when this kind of trust develops first can the patrol-method have a chance to succeed on a broad scale. No, I don't have to be there looking over their shoulder every minute to make sure they don't decide something stupid. No, I don't have to second guess their decisions because they sound silly to me. No, I don't have to make sure they have MY vision of the program for them to be a successful scout. No, they don't have to fit into my mold of what a leader style works the best for everyone. No, they can and do very well when I'm not even anywhere close to them because they have had a chance to learn what is good and bad for them. In North Dakota, I think it's still possible for a 12 year old to get a farm drivers' license. He can't drive around with his friends, but he can drive a 2 1/2 ton grain truck to town. And yet, these same aged boys in my troop can't be trusted with a pocket knife. Go figure. Stosh

If the BSA is saying they want the parent to pick someone else who is responsible for their child, why don't they say, "Parent or parental designee". That would be far more clear than saying Parent or Guardian which is also very clearly not the same. guardian n : one who has or is entitled or legally appointed to the care and management of the person or property of another compare committee, conservator, curator, receiver, tutor guardian ad li·tem ... http://dictionary.findlaw.com/definition/guardian.html Source: Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law ©1996. Merriam-Webster, Incorporated. Published under license with Merriam-Webster, Incorporated. Natural guardian is either the father or mother, recognized by law as the lawful guardian, as opposed to an appointed guardian, who is named by a court or a will to care for a child under legal age. Even though in common law, father is the guardian by nature and the mother only after the father's death, most states have given both parents equal rights of guardianship over their children. For example, in New York a married woman is a joint guardian of her children with her husband, with equal powers, rights and duties in regard to them. Either the father or mother may in the life-time of them both, by last will duly executed, appoint the other the guardian of the person and property of such child, during its minority. Either the father or mother may in the life-time of them both by last will duly executed, and with the written consent of the other duly acknowledged, appoint the other and a third person to be the guardians of the person and property of such child during its minority, and in making such appointment shall not be limited to the appointment of the same person or persons in both capacities. [NY CLS Dom Rel § 81] I would suggest using a law dictionary when making determination of legal issues and definitions. Stosh

The mantra I drill into my leadership training has always been "Take care of your boys." If you're SPL, what do you do specifically to take care of the PL's? If you're QM, what do you do when two patrols ask for the one Dutch oven? If you're Instructor, what do you do to help the PL of the NSP get their boys through to FC? Management is specific tasks all laid out for a person to organize, prioritize and assign duties to to others. Managers fill out duty rosters from a list of available names. They don't need to care about the person doing the job or whether or not they are even capable of doing it. Their position of responsibility ends when the task has been assigned and completed. Leadership is finding out what problems someone is facing and supporting them to reach a workable solution. Not knowing the task makes the management model unworkable for the most part until a solution is found. Getting to the solution requires leadership, not management skills. Over the years I have worked with many scenarios that have gone well with developing leadership. Probably the most fun is when we take a hike somewhere and the boys aren't paying much attention, I have a couple of adults fall out of the hike with one of the boys who is "injured". We continue the hike until the "leader" realizes his head count is short, or thinks it's short. He has a problem to solve. As SM I tend to simply stand around "not paying attention" to their problem. Eventually they will realize they are short one person and now solve their problem. Once they find the scout, they need to apply first aid appropriately and get the boy to safety. The learning begins at the AAR (After Action Review). Why did the boy get separated in the first place? How long was he "lost" before anyone knew it? Why wasn't hike protocol being used to avoid the problem in the first place? Were proper first aid techniques being followed? Who missed the boat and who stepped up? Once the boys get wind of this scenario have one of the adults be the one to "get injured" and "lost". A good leader cares for the welfare of EVERYONE in the group, not just the boys! I had one adult sit in the woods for 3 hours before the boys noticed he wasn't around. The adult didn't care, he had his book and was prepared to be there for quite some time. Carrying the gentleman out on a stretcher was a Herculean task as well. It was decided from that point on that "Be Prepared" mean more than just a motto. Would I pull that stunt on the NSP when there aren't any older scouts around? Sure, why not, when does real leadership training supposed to start? Day one or a few years after the boys have developed the idea that sitting around doing nothing is a good thing in scouting? Stosh

What other kind of parent/guardian is there other than legal? And any issue arising from a problem ending in court will not necessarily need to be in a ""legal" court, but court nonetheless. By birth all minors are legally under the supervision/care of their parents unless the courts determine them unfit and then assign a guardian for the child, i.e. "legal" guardian. This process can occur anytime in a person's life. If someone is severely injured and cannot take care of themselves until they heal they can have a legal guardian provided for them. I happen to be legal guardian for my elderly father. Once the person is capable of once again taking care of themselves they can petition the court to remove the guardianship. If a child is under the supervision of a minor, that can mean many things, babysitting, grandparent visit, going over to Johny's house, going camping with friends, etc., but it does NOT mean guardianship. The rules apply whether the child is 1 year old or 17 years old. BSA is making some kind of distinction for those of a certain age when it states parent or guardian must attend. That means not their nanny or babysitter, not their grandparent, not their uncle, not their neighbor, and not some other parent from the pack. It means parent or court recognized guardian. If the child has foster parents, lives in an institution, is a ward of the state, etc. the legal representative for their welfare must attend with them on an event. Now that might not make a lot of Webelos leaders happy and it might mean a few boys can't attend a certain event, but it's BSA's way of CYA and if the pack is worried about bending the rules a bit, might want to think about a bit of CYA as well. Stosh

Matt, I'm thinking we're pretty much on the same page with the exception of the pyramid. I like it upside down to show that mentoring doesn't often get defined correctly, but support pretty much speaks for itself. Some seem to think that mentoring involves a lot of direction giving whereas support involves finding out where the boy is at and then help him with his decisions. It also is a visual on who has the heaviest weight to bear to hold things together and assist in making it happen. It also means the SM and SPL's are focused not on the whole picture, but just the responsibilities directly above them they have to support. And maybe you have dealt with enough drunks over the years and the boys haven't. But if you're going to drag them away when the fun's just starting, they aren't going to learn until next time when you're not around. I'd get my boys back away a safe distance, but then during the after action review (AAR) I would use it as a discussion on the drugs/alcohol thingy. Heck you had a real live example for your demonstration for the boys. I create opportunities for my boys. Some will enhance and inspire, others will be a challenge, but the boys will learn from both. If my boys ever are accosted by someone when I'm not around, I surely hope they will remember their scouting experiences to guide them through. Frankly, I like the patrol-method the best. It is a never ending source of inspiration to me and the parents when they see their kids taking on some pretty challenging tasks within their patrols. And before anyone gets too out of shape about the independence of each of the patrols, there is nothing in the rules that say two or three patrols can't coordinate their activities for a larger group experience. Maybe the SPL could assist/support in those cooperative ventures. QM could take inventory of gear to know if there is enough equipment to handle a bigger endeavor, etc. I had one of my patrols go with a troop (adult-led) that had never been on any kind of high adventure and asked if some of my older boys could help on introducing them to HA. My older boy patrol jumped at the chance and did a really nice job working with the other troop. The SM was concerned at first because only I as ASM from my troop went on the trip. I think they were looking for some adult help, but soon realized they didn't need any. I basically went along for the ride, drank coffee and pretty much stayed out of my patrol's way. Stosh

Unfortunately you describe the perfect management setup. Issues float up from the bottom and the higher level people dictate their resolution. Suck it up and live with it is always a management option that can be dictated back down the line. Sorry, but that's not leadership, that's management. Management deals with problems, tasks, issues, while leadership deals with people and until that issue gets resolved in the minds of everyone in the troop, the troop-method of management will prevail. If that be the case, don't bother wasting everyone's time trying to implement any sort of boy-led patrol-method system. It simply won't work. Stepping in and overturning others' decisions is not helping them, it's only doing a management CYA routine. Ivory tower management where only the really smart people at the top of the food chain know all the answers is not something I want to develop for my troop. I develop leadership and when the "leaders" turn around and realize their arrogant know-it-all attitude has reduced morale and no one is following, it just might dawn on him at that point, he needs people to follow if he's going to be a real leader. Good leaders are constantly looking out for the welfare and safety of their people, so much of your concern doesn't apply here unless one is talking about poor managers who need to get a task done and don't worry about people. Cases of poor scout spirit wouldn't apply to the leader who's taking care of his people either. Chances are with good leaders, many of the "problems" you are describing will never get past the PL in the first place which once again leaves the SPL out there with nothing to do. In the 30 years of working with scouts, I have never had to "step in and overturn a lower decision" of any scout I have had the privilege of working with. But then again, I develop leadership from the bottom up and they seem to do quite well in the trenches. I have my 6 Webelos cross-over boys going on their first campout this weekend. But I'm not worried. They have their menu planned, rides lined up, adults committed to be there, site reserved, plans for shopping this Thursday and equipment inventoried to make sure all 6 boys will have what they need. Yep, 6 Webelos boys is all I have in my troop. 100% attendance at the service project they worked on last Saturday and 100% attendance at the outing. No SPL, no TG, no QM, no troop officer of any kind, just a PL taking care of his boys getting them to their first outing. Nothing for me to overturn, their decisions are great, well thought out and for being in the program for less than 6 months, pretty impressive management skills demonstrated by all the boys in the patrol. If anyone asks my PL what his job is in this whole process, he will always answer, "I'm here to take care of my boys." They need the service project hours and campouts, and that's what he's doing. Management is but a small sub factor in real leadership, it's not all that it's cracked up to be by the management training programs of the BSA today. Turn your pyramid upside down. Now, as SM, it appears you are there at the "bottom" to SUPPORT everything going on. Next assume everyone you support is a leader, not a follower. If something is going to need to get done, you're going to need the most hands available. Which level has the most hands? Oh, yes, the top level. If this analogy is beginning to make some sense, then you are on your way of developing a boy-led, patrol-method program run by a ton of leaders within the troop, not just a few the elected management style parlor scouts. Stosh

A parent signing a permission slip to attend is not the same thing as giving up legal guardianship of their children. The G2SS states Parent or Legal Guardian. That is not anyone other than the legal next of kin for a child. If one finds it difficult to understand how this works, take someone else's child into the ER trauma center and show them the permission slip or the form you think gives you the right to determine medical treatment as a parent or legal guardian. I'm sure the nurse will take that all into consideration after she tells you to go sit down in the waiting room while she goes to find the legal parent or guardian. Parental rights and guardianship rights are determined by law, not by the parents. Stosh

Pretty much the same as what everyone else has said except for the SPL/ASPL combo. They have no role in the patrol method other than support the PL/APL combos if necessary and when asked. Unless they are mentoring and supporting stay out of the operations of the patrols. If they, as has been mentioned, dictate which patrol does what, etc., then sorry, but such policy setting as such is the troop method. Every patrol is capable of doing their own patrol flag ceremonies, doing their own duty rosters, and latrine duties. As a matter of fact, unless an SPL is an experienced PL that can actually mentor the PL's, as the SENIOR PL, then he's pretty much a waste of time in my book. In all my years of scouting I have found maybe one or two scouts that could effective fill the role of a mentoring SPL. Otherwise, for the most part, they do nothing more than just interfere in the operation of the patrols. I believe the PL/APL are selected by the patrol members. How they do that is up to them. If they want to elect fine. If they just come to a consensus, fine. If one boy wants to try it out and the others don't mind, fine. It's their decision, they can come to it anyway they see fit. As far as troop "officers" like QM, Chaplain Aide, Scribe, Instructor, etc. If these officers are supporting the patrols, then they should be selected by the PL's because it will be those boys that will be needing their help. Troops that decide for the patrols who their mentors are pretty much provide a useless service to the PL's and their patrols. Lets have all the boys select based on popularity their pals for SPL, etc, so they can wear the patches, get the advancement, and every PL thinks they're just a bunch of meddling fools. That's a recipe for disaster. A troop, it's adults and it's youth leadership are there to support the independent activity of the patrols. In my troop, the highest ranking officer is the PL. He runs his patrol and everyone else supports him in doing that. The troop program consists of nothing more than "the patrol-method". There is no troop program, there is no need for a troop program, and efforts to create troop programming do nothing more than interfere in the patrol method. The PLC is a clearing house of patrol concerns that the troop offices need to be providing to the patrols. If the SPL wants something to do, he can coordinate the troop officer's response to the patrol needs and make sure the PL's get what they need to run their patrols. If 3 patrols want to go to summer camp and three patrols want to do high adventure instead, the troop officers figure out what it's going to take to make it happen. Too often the SM dictates to the SPL, who dictates to the PL's who dictates to his members and the adults call this boy-led, patrol-method. It is as far as possible, 180 degrees from what they think it is. Look at the chain of authority/command. Everyone just follows the SM, period. No need for any boy to actually produce any leadership for anyone ever. Just ask the SM. He's already told you what needs to be done. Ever hear of a SM, SPL, ASPL, TG, Instructor, QM asking a PL what he can be doing to help him be a successful PL? Nope, me neither. How can anyone have a successful patrol-method unit when nothing is being done to support PL's in doing their jobs? Stosh

We've never done that before and we've always done it this way have tradition that go back 5 or 6 years only. I've made major changes and improvements can go either way. You never know until you try. The last thing they want to do is find a new CM so that much is in your favor. Stosh

Out of the fry pan into the fire. Not a option for me. Stosh

Hmmmm, so, you want to tick off the uniform police AND record it with a picture as evidence? What's wrong with you, Man? I don't wear the patch which would get me in all kinds of trouble, but I do carry the old red/black beaver patrol flag on my walking stick. Stosh

I don't know if this is a different thread or a symptom of the problem described. Patrols are having a difficult time coming up with people showing up. Well, if the patrols were really deciding on what they wanted to do, working around difficult schedules, and making it happen as a group, attendance would take care of itself. Instead, patrols are being dictated to was to when, where and how often they are expected to be someplace with no input on their part. Then they are unfairly judged as to their percentage of attendance for advancement and subjected to a ton of adult inflicted difficulties. Why do we have ad hoc patrols in the first place unless there are a bunch of scouts loosing interest, can't make it, frustrated and burning out because of the lack of patrol-method planning on the part of the patrols. Tell the boys that they need to plan a monthly patrol activity and then let them have at it. They will NOT plan activities where the majority of them can't make it and they won't necessarily plan an activity on an adult dictated timeline. Summer Camp for the 6th year, i.e. boys 16+. They decide to go to a non-council camp the first week in July and do their high adventure program only. But the SM says that isn't going to work out, no adult leaders capable of doing high adventure can take that week off. Instead they will need to sign up for the week with the NSP which is the third week of July when some of the adults can cover. This leaves the SM standing around scratching his head, blaming girls, jobs, and cars for the fact that the 16+ year old boys in his troop refuse to go to summer camp this summer! So they take the one boy 16+ who is willing to make the change, and give him TG babysitting for the NSP for the week. OMG, where do I sign up to get a piece of that action!! Stosh A few years back I attended a summer camp and in the site near us was a "troop" of 6-7 boys and a couple of adults. Before the week was out I visited with them. The two adults spent the week hanging out at the mess hall drinking coffee and fishing in the local stream nearby. The boys either hiked, ate at the dining hall or hung out around the campfire. They participated in no camp activities, didn't take any merit badges and basically just "screwed around" for the week. After a couple of days watching them, I went over and visited. They were all Eagle Scouts, they had been there, done that and this was their week to hang out and do nothing for a week away from home. They got to camp, fish, hike, canoe and do whatever they felt like doing and no one would bother them. The only reason the two adults were along was because the camp mandated it. But the two adults were fully aware that they were on their own for the week, too. They caught some great mountain trout and had some really nice meals in camp on the days they didn't like the menu at the mess hall. I hope that all my boys get a chance at a week of summer camp like this! Stosh

My initial thought was, why in the world would a patrol decide on going someplace most of the people in the patrol didn't want to go to???? I would think that if four out of 6 patrol members didn't want to go, the PL would take care of his one or two patrol members that did want to go by going to the other patrols and requesting an invite for them. If one does this often enough those stragglers will eventually join up with the new patrol leaving the original, basically leader-less patrol, to flounder on its own. I do believe a lot of this problem stems from the control exerted by either the adults and/or PLC. The Committee/SM/PLC puts Spring Camporee on the calendar and dictates to everyone they have to attend. Well, the older boys don't want to do that, they would prefer to do something else that weekend. So the mixed age patrols all have the older boys take a pass leaving partial patrols of young boys to fend for themselves. It's hard to miss the voting with the feet process that occurs all over the place, not just scouting. After 40 years of scouting, I've had enough Camporees, but at my age, I would rather tackle yet another whitewater river, or trip to the BWCA, or hiking Isle Royale, but another Camporee? I will make the effort because I'm the SM and I will support my boys, but I can't speak for the others. Okay, let's do the math, 7 years of Boy scouts, 1 fall, 1 winter and 1 spring camporee/klondike outing. That means by the time a boy gets his driver's license, he's had 15 camporees under his belt and another 6 to go. Oh, but it's the girls, cars and jobs? I don't buy that excuse for one minute. Stosh

Tenderfoot Requirement #9 - Buddy system. One boy should not be attending and where's the PL who's supposed to be taking care of his boys? Sounds like a breakdown in leadership big time. If I was that boy, I'd be looking for a new patrol like, maybe, yesterday! Stosh

I had a poor SM. When I got into scouting as an adult, I promised myself I wouldn't do to my boys what my SM did to me. 4 years of scouting and never got past 2nd Class and one MB. Only his pet scouts were advanced.

My troop of 3 boys and another troop from the council were the only troops in our Memorial Day parade. By the way the other troop was the special needs troop and one of the scouts was in a wheel chair pushed by an Eagle Scout with no POR on his sleeve. Community of 50,000 and a good 12 potential troops to draw. We waved to a number of scouters watching the parade from the curb. My ASM was fuming by the end of the parade in that for the ceremony at the cemetery, only our 3 scouts were there. Yes, it rained, and my boys, all in full field uniform refused to cover up with rain gear. The military personnel in attendance, military units, Am Legion, etc. none covered up so my boys wouldn't either. Stosh