Stosh

"Well I’m not sure what you are trying to say because it kind of sounds like the adults made up the rules for when they can turn off boy run and tell the scouts what to do. All troops do it to some degree, but you can understand why one adult’s boy run on this forum can be another adult’s not so boy run." That would be the case but only if one jumps to conclusions and assumes the rules were made up by the the adults. These rules were negotiated with the boys and they are the ones they adopted. It was suggested by the adults to limit the rules to just 3 so that everyone could remember them easier. And yes, the adults can step in and deal with situations that concern individual scouts. Boy-led, patrol-method deals with patrols, not individual scouts. For example, one of my boys (all Webelos crossovers this past winter) showed up this past weekend with a hand-axe. Needless to say, I said something to the individual scout about the rules and had him stowe the axe until after he had finished the Tot'n Chit training. That is not a boy-led, patrol-method issue. Had his PL been handy, he could have handled the situation as well and I would have deferred to him. When we were going to go down to the nature center (boy's planned activity) the Mrs. told the boy to be careful heading down the trail because the woods are loaded with poison ivy (Rule #1). Six paranoid boys thus changed their plans briefly so that she could teach them what the stuff looked like. Had any of the boys been able to recognize it and teach the others she would have deferred. Her responsibility to safety was over. It applied to the Rules but not to the boy-led, patrol-method. The PL took note of the lesson and that evening checked off everyone's advancement for recognizing dangerous plants. THAT is a boy-led, patrol-method issue and the adults have no business messing with that. The 10:00 am deadline for packing up or it changes to an adult-led troop was negotiated with the PL prior to the "lesson" put into place. The surprising thing about that little lesson, the boys did not complain about it at the AAR following the campout, nor at the meeting last night where more AAR activity was dealt with. In reality, that kinda bothers me. It tells me they are willing to sit back and let the adults run the show and tell them what to do. It's always easier to follow than to lead. Stosh

Find a camp that doesn't do pictures and one has the problem solved. No one should be forced to do the pictures and the more troops back out the more the camp will realize this is not a priority for troops anymore. If it is, they simply take their own Stosh

Sometimes we get caught up in our definitions that we forget the practical application of making the program work. I am a boy-led, patrol-method champion and yet there are times when adults must step in. I have 3 rules for the boys. #1 Safety First #2 Look and act like a scout. #3 Have fun If any adult sees any of these rules being broken they can step in and correct the situation. I took my new troop out on their first campout this weekend. It was "boring" according to the boys. I reminded them that they in fact broke rule #3. They need to do better planning for the next campout. Yes an adult stepped in, but the onus still remained with the boys and their program. Breaking camp on Sunday morning was a free-for-all. At 7:00 am, I announced that if we weren't packed up by 10:00 am, we would be changing into an adult-led, troop-method troop for the duration of the campout. (We were planning on leaving at 12:00 noon and I figured the Mrs. and I would need 2 hours to pack up the boys and get them home if we needed to do it all ourselves.) Yes, we had to step in and help out with the decamping, LNT, and packing into vehicles at 10:00 am. At 11:30 we sat down and did an AAR. The boys decided they didn't like adult-led, troop-method. (I'd have done a drill sergeant proud!) As part of the learning curve for these boys, they have to know the choices that face them. Maybe for some adult-led was what they were preferring, but it doesn't seem to case for these boys. The boys have responsibility for the programming. They have the ownership of its success AND they have the authority to decide what is to be done. I see troops going with the responsibility part all the time. If they are convincing enough and find good programs, they may get the boys into ownership of the activity, but seldom do I see the boys have full autonomy with authority to fulfill the programming on their own terms. The test for this process is: If every patrol in your troop wanted to go to a different summer camp, as adults can one handle this? Or for expedience sake of the adults, the boys are told they can't do that? One patrol is happy, but 4 patrols aren't. Then the adults stand around scratching their heads as to why the boys' attendance is down for summer camp! They comfort themselves in blaming the boys for girls, cars and jobs. If the only ones in the troop who have the authority to make decisions are over 18 years of age, one has an adult-led troop which will probably end up troop-method by default eventually. PL's who have no authority to take care of their boys will eventually sit back and let the adults do it because they are in control anyway. Sure, they'll complain about the PL's being lazy and not doing their job, but they'll wear the patch for 6 months and get credit for it anyway. Stosh

Those are messages for the blind. Does your keyboard have braile? If not you're out of luck. Stosh

I'm 100% in agreement with you, but as an adult, I suggest that as the patrol gets "older" and if the boys wish, they might want to invite younger boys into the patrol to perpetuate a legacy for the patrol. I have had occasion where two older shrinking patrols merge and come up with a combined name or new name for the patrol. It's always interesting what the boys come up with. One of the older boy patrols all adopted 6' walking stick, patrol hat, and patrol necker. Membership was by invite only. They called themselves the Honor Patrol. Everyone wanted to join that patrol even though there was nothing indicative of being special (Honor) at all. It was just the name. They generally didn't have attendance problems like the other patrols. They all carried dual neckers for when troop neckers were necessary, but generally wore their patrol neckers and hat to stay unique within the troop. Although not "part" of the patrol, the troop officers tended to camp near this patrol and interact with it on a regular basis. It was always interesting to note that at the ECOH's, the hat, necker and staff were always part of the boy's display and on occasion, there were tripods of walking sticks near the display table. As far as I know this troop still has it's Honor Patrol. Stosh

I'm up to three now for non-existant messages. Unless the number changes, I don't check, but just because the number changed doesn't mean you got a new message, just a new non-existant message. Stosh

I just say patrols are 6-8 boys each. Let me know who's in what patrol and who the PL/APL team is for each. Then I go have a cup of coffee. This is not a battle worth fighting and if something isn't up to snuff, they can't blame the adults. I really like that part about not being able to blame the adults. Of course if there's a problem down the road about who's in what patrol, then they can switch around to their hearts content. I can drink coffee all day long. And no matter what happens, they can never blame the adults. Did I mention that they can't blame the adults? Stosh

Go to the PL's and enlist their help to get their patrol to the events. They have an invested interest in getting there and if that means one of the parents has to bite the bullet, so be it. Short term they can handle it. Get them to training so they have an idea of what they are supposed to be doing in the first place, then they can lay out the plan for your troop. I'd put that more in the long term because of the necessity to train. You really don't need a committee of 50 members. A handful of focused, well trained, dedicated members can do miracles for your program. I'd toss out the adult led events. Without some skin in the game, the boys are not as apt to support some adult's idea of what is fun. If they enjoy the activity, it doesn't need to be adult led, the boys will figure it out quickly on their own. I'd put this in the very short term. But you say some of the events will be dropped because the boys can't handle it right away? Sure, and how many are being dropped due to lack of interest in getting there in the first place. I would seriously rather do what I want to do than what some adult says I want to do. I'd be interested in knowing the attendance ratio between the boy-led activities and the adult-led activities. It might be interesting to know which ones the boys enjoy more as well. To give a bit of what happens with a wee bit of training. My new CC of my new troop, did the on-line thingy. So did my MC that will be doing the $$ stuff. They have decided no ISA's, Everyone pulls their own weight when it comes to fundraising. The parents have a vested interest in covering the cost of camp, no boy left behind unless a scheduling conflict cannot be avoided. No fundraisers are approved unless the boys approve them first. The SM and ASM are notified of these fundraising activities and are encouraged to come if it sounds like fun. Otherwise, the fundraising is directed by the boys and carried out between the boys and their parents. Whether it be fundraisers, service projects, activities, etc. the Committee can only suggest opportunities for the boys. If a parent hears about something that might be fun, they can as well make a suggestion to the boys. The SM can bring in suggestions of information acquired from Roundtables and other sources as well. The boys then decide from all the options what it is that they would like to do and they identify specifically what it is they will be needing support on, i.e. equipment, rides, etc. It has been suggested by the CC and Committee that the ASM and SM focus their involvement in the hands-on programming with the boys, advancement, leadership training, counseling, team-building, etc. The only rule on this whole process is that if one is over 18 years of age, they can no longer be involved in the final decisions. They can lobby all they want, but they can't vote. Stosh

From my reading of the paragraph on the health form, High Adventure is for the 4 national bases. In other, words if you do not outfit through Northern Tier and instead just go to the BWCA it is not high adventure. If you wish to backpack Estes Park or Yellowstone on your own and not go to Philmont, it is not high adventure. Makes perfectly logical sense when viewed through the eyes of national where the emphasis, probably for legal and medical reasons don't want the PR hassle of some overweight, aged, SM croaking on BSA property. They can do it a mile down the road, just not on BSA property. Stosh

ParkMan, I'm thinking that you may be over-thinking this situation. If the unit is adult-led, troop-method, then you will of course need to follow the prescribed process you have been in the past and hope that you have enough help when the time comes to do the activity. I'm sure it involves a lot of anxious moments increasing in intensity the closer one gets to the time of the event. Think of it like the Titanic. One little hole the the whole thing sinks. Well, engineers learned from that and do a better job of compartmentalizing the ships so that if one gets a hole, they can seal it off and keep the ship afloat. In other words, if one patrol screws up, the whole troop doesn't suffer. This process will of course require the focus to change in the unit from troop-method to patrol-method. That is very difficult to do unless one also changes from adult-led to boy-led. If the adults try to go the adult-led, patrol-method, it is a bit like herding cats. The boys are going every which way and the adults are scurrying around trying to find them. One is going to burn out the adults rather quickly. However, if one were to try the boy-led, patrol-method, one has the luxury of having the boys compartmentalized so that if one patrol falls apart the others don't sink with it. And if the patrols are being run by the boys, any two adults can go along as babysitters, drink coffee and smell the roses along the way. They can do that for quite some time before burning out. With all the scheduling, planning, lining up rides, making menus, organizing equipment by the boys, and defining activities, that doesn't really leave a whole lot for the adults to do except drive cars, camp, eat, sleep, eat, decamp, and drive cars for the event. Everything else should be all set to go before any boys toss their gear into a vehicle. If it was me as the new CC, the first thing I would do is train my committee on the boy-led, patrol-method process. Then I would as the keeper of the BSA program for your unit, pass that down to the adults and boys to work out, but with the stipulation that within 1 year this whole problem if sink or swim as a whole will come to and end and things will be running smoother in the future. As a troop, there are far more important things that need to be on one's plate than whether or not the boys are going to summer camp because Johnnies mom found out at the last minute she was unable to drive the boys, i.e. the car wouldn't start! Part of boy leadership is to have a good Plan A (what the boys want to do) and an even better Plan B (what the boys need to do). Stosh

EXACTLY! This is how my boys handle it. Everything is done by patrol. If the parents of a single patrol don't give rides that doesn't mean that everyone in the troop has to suffer. Same for parental backup on events to make 2-deep. If only SM or an ASM can make it, the second non-registered 2-deep comes from a rotating patrol roster. We need a 2nd adult for this event? Which patrol is to provide a parent? End of discussion. If that patrol doesn't have an adult back up, they need to find some other patrol to take their place in the rotation. Just because it's the adult's responsibility to "line up rides" for events doesn't mean the boys are off the hook. If 5 patrols want to attend 5 different summer camps, they had better be on the horn lining up rides and 2-deep or they aren't going. That's not the adults countering the boys' decisions, it's a reality of fact that needs to be considered in the planning of the patrol activity. Stosh

I didn't want to derail the other thread, so I started anew. Robert's Rules.... Shouldn't all boys be taught this archaic way of doing public meetings in their Citizenship emphasis? Most people I know would rather waste time, haggle, dicker, bicker, fight and run rough-shod over other people than play by the "rules of order". Secret meetings, political positioning, shouting down the "other guys", get off target, meander down memory lane and generally accomplish little or nothing during the meeting. Whenever I have been asked to be chair/president of a group it usually only lasts one term. I use Robert's Rules of Order, everyone gets a chance to speak and participate in discussions, and the proceedings last about an hour compared to the previous chairs whose record to beat was two evenings. They had to recess after 4 hours and reconvene the next night for 2 hours. The problem with me is I said the meeting would be one hour and it was, all the topics discussed, all the decisions were made and the evening of wasting time, haggling, dickering, bickering and fighting was over before anyone got a chance to build up a head of steam. Minutes to the meeting were easy. The secretary collected up all the resolutions before the meeting started. Made notes on the discussion and filled in at the bottom the resolution vote. These were then reprinted in the minutes for the next meeting. Any subcommittee reports were also handed in and included in the minutes. I have found over the past 40 years of being on committees, the only ones who don't really like Robert's Rules of Order are those that like to waste time, haggle, dicker, bicker, fight and run rough-shod over other people. How many other troops use Roberts for their committee and PLC meetings? Stosh

How fast can this work, you ask? It wasn't in scouting, but I was a Confirmation teacher in a church and all the way through the grades the teachers were always complaining about this one hellion of a boy. They unanimously said they were relieved when their year with him was up. So he gets to Confirmation and I inherit him. I announced to the class there would be a seating arrangement so I would learn their names quickly. They were to sit boy/girl/boy/girl around the table. I needed a boy next to me to start and I non-nonchalantly picked this hellion boy to sit next to me. I didn't really care where anyone else sat, but it appeared to be a random thing to everyone in the room. I did my lesson and every time the boy started to interject or act up, I simply reached over and touched his arm. I didn't change my tone of voice and I didn't shift my focus away from the lesson to deal with him. I never said a word to him, but he always quieted down because he didn't know how to react to it. I did this maybe 2-3 times the first meeting and at the end of class he came up and said to me, "I like you, I'm gonna be nice to you." And he did. Never had a problem with him through the 3 years of confirmation with him. Sadly, the Sunday School teachers could never figure out why he still was a problem with them. Stosh

Yep, even negative attention is better than no attention. He's the focus of attention, what better stage to act out on?

How in the world did this scout get to this point without multiple SMC's already? I'm thinking if it took the adults a full year to figure this out, it's going to be a long uphill battle with this boy. Each one of the issues mentioned to get to this point should have been a SMC in and of itself. Now all it does is sound like everyone's ganging up on him. I really hate it when people bring up unresolved issues from ancient history to be dealt with with a whole plateful already at hand. Sounds like either this boy slipped through the cracks (not really, it's obvious he's been on the adult radar since day one), or the adults didn't really do much if anything to help this boy find success in Scouting. Boys who seek attention will seek negative attention if positive attention is not present. Troop Guide???? SERIOUSLY? Now there's some adult's idea of how to set up a boy to fail. Which adult's responsible for this stroke of futile brilliance? Right now the whole troop focuses it's attention around this one boy, it's exactly what he's aiming for. My advice? For what it's worth, I would quit catering to his need for attention. "He flatly refuses even simple requests from youth and adult leaders alike. On a recently backpacking trip he refused the PLs request for him to get the stove he was carrying and get water boiling for a meal." And so why is everyone wasting their time asking him????? They already know the answer they are going to get and he knows the negative attention he's going to get, too. Double win for the boy. "During a service project on another campout he went back to the campsite for a nap instead of participating on the project. When the SPL tracked him down and asked him to help out he refused to return to the service project." So why is the SPL looking for the boy? I'm sure the SPL found him in the first place he looked.... 99% of the boys that don't want to do any work are usually in their tents. "He's a bully. He is mostly responsible for at least one Scout leaving the troop." I'm surprised only one has left. And what does "mostly responsible" mean? Sounds like he's not the only issue with this boy. Maybe the straw that broke the camel's back, but that's pretty small potatoes for a major problem already brewing. Don't know, wasn't there. But it deserves a more careful look. In all seriousness I would start my SMC at this point with an apology for failing to help him be a good/better scout, followed up by suggestions from him as to what one might be able to do to change that. After all the negative attention garnered already, I don't think he'll trust well enough to honestly open up right away. But by working on a trust relationship, one might be able to get to the root of this boy's concerns. Boys don't act this way without a reason. At this point, as SM, one has no idea what that is. It might bode well to find out. "So my question is how does this conversation go? I can pretty clearly document his failings, but I'm not sure that will be beneficial." A litany of wrong doings does nothing more than reinforce the idea that the only time one interacts with this boy is in a negative relationship. You are right, that wouldn't be beneficial. "(For one, I'm sure he will try to explain away each of them.)" That's obvious, and pretty much a waste of time. "But I don't really think he will get the big-picture message that he needs to start considering there are people in the world besides himself. How do you explain compassion and empathy to someone who has none?" Lead by example. Stosh

Now I am only half annoyed. One of my non-existent messages simply disappeared. Of course it didn't really appear in the first place, but that's another whole thread. If it wasn't for the numbers on the top of the page, I would never have known it disappeared. These disappearing non-existent messages are kinda unnerving. Stosh

People come and go in my life all the time. It's no different with the hundreds of boys who have been part of my scouting program. Some I keep track of, most I don't. It's always good to see them and we take the time to catch up, they have their life to live. Hopefully something I said to them along the way was helpful. Stosh

It'll be interesting this weekend. My six Webelos cross-over scouts are going on their first camping outing this weekend. They're calling it the summer camp shakedown. My ASM can't make it so the Mrs. is doing the 2-deep thingy. It should be interesting. Rain won't roll in until Saturday afternoon. I was told the boys didn't menu plan any hotdog dinners, but kept the cooking to a minimum. I have a few Plan B suggestions for the boys, but they're pretty much on their own for 48 hours. Everything in my "Dad Bag" says, "I dunno, this ain't gonna be pretty." Everything in my "Boy-led SM Bag" says, "Ya gotta give 'em a chance!" By the way, the State Park wouldn't allow 300' between campsites. We'll have to make do the best we can. Stosh

And I though 2 was annoying..... No matter how bad life gets, there's always some poor sap out there that has it worse. Stosh

Welcome aboard. Stosh

If I didn't like my Rockwell avatar so much I'd switch. Stosh

Silent scream from the admins???

I wonder if these are the forum's equivalent of hearing voices that aren't really there? Stosh

Nope, I have 2 non-existant messages as well. It's just one of the undocumented perks of the forum. Enjoy. Stosh