Stosh

It's not just the Jewish tendency, it is a tendency amongst all sectarians regardless of their flavor. One group omits parts of their ritual to accommodate another which isn't accommodated one bit. One ends up accomplishing nothing except short changing everyone. So let's apply the principles of BSA - Duty to God per the Oath. So is the scout doing this duty to his God by short changing the prayers? I don't think so. So he's not living up to the Scout Oath. Okay, are the other scouts present, showing due respect and tolerance and reverence to those of another sect when they whine and complain about the rituals of others? Nope, they are not living according to the Scout Law. Are we then as SM's supposed to sign off on Scout Spirit when we see flagrant disregard of the Scout Oath and Law? Or worse yet are we perpetuating it by directing our CA's to do watered down prayers and seek to keep everyone happy when in fact they make no one happy? I guess I would rather have a heartfelt prayer from a Buddhist to his God than have him try to accommodate me just because I am standing near by. I'm not going to starve to death just because I have to have a Kosher vegetarian meal now and then so I can enjoy the company of my friends. I'm sure they would understand it if I were have a ham sandwich instead, but as a courtesy and to show reverence, I'd find either something on the table to eat or go somewhere it won't bother the other participants. Reverence and tolerance always go hand in hand.... such tolerance is my duty to my God. Stosh

I haven't jumped in on this discussion, but I don't really see a problem with the BSA's approach to this issue of religion. The Oath draws the boy's responsibility towards his own religion... Duty to God. That has nothing to do with what anyone else does or doesn't do. The Law draws the boy's responsibility to be reverent, i.e. tolerant and respectful of what others are doing. It doesn't mean he is required to participate in their activities, just be reverent towards them AND being reverent doesn't not include proselytizing. Anyone that does try and influence another's faith is not being reverent. With that being said, the "definition" of chaplain has changed over the years to include non-Christian religious leaders. So then the rub. If one changes horses in the middle of the stream, so to speak, one's probably going to have some problems along the way or at the very least, get wet. "The purpose of religion isn't to bring people together". ?? The term community is often defined in terms of religious ideology. Most major religions would definitely state their purpose as bringing people together into a like-minded community. The problem isn't in the issue of community, it is in the judgments individuals draw concerning communities other than their own. Wars are not a result of religion, political ideologies or any such simplified justification. They are based on the non-community thinking in terms of "us and them". If you're not part of my community, then there must be something wrong with you and that justifies my attacking you. Community of common respect and reverence combats that way of destructive thinking. Therefore the purpose of religion IS to bring people together. The 10 Commandments is the cornerstone of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. It has often been referred to as the minimum requirements for civilization (community). Stosh

I'm thinking you might have military dog tents. Two snap together and are held up by 2 poles/8 stakes. No ridge pole. 2 triangular vestibules at each end of the tent. Unsnap vestibule to gain access to the tent. Soldiers carried 1/2 tent, 4 stakes, and one 3 section pole each. They then bunked up with each other to make a complete tent. Once staked down all the way around, it is a very stable tent. Stosh

One of the things I like about just one complete uniform, my boys look "veteran" even when they aren't. My uniforms are rather threadbare in spots, patched a couple of times here and there, stains on the front, expedition hat a bit road weary and stained, but between my short and long sleeved shirts and 2 pair of pants, they have held up very well over the past 20+ years. One set or other has been at every scout activity I have ever attended. There's just something nice about a uniform that has had the band-box starch knocked out of it. Don't have a flat brim on my SM hat, either. The only uniform that looks new is my 1910 reproduction uniform. At the end of summer camp when the uniforms look their worst, it's kinda nice to get a visual on all the fun the boys had getting them that dirty. Stosh

As it would seem people do it many different ways and have spent a lot of time dreaming up justification for doing uniforms in a wide variety of different, non-uniform processes. Yet these would be the first people to hop on the bandwagon when the advertized 100% beef burger wasn't 100% beef. Of course the fast food place "did their best" to get the 100% stuff, but there were corners needed to be cut to make it work. It looks just like beef, so no harm, no foul. The only point I was trying to make was the honesty one promotes when it appears to be official when it is not. Just be honest about it. That's not something that doing one's best allows for any wiggle room. I also find that the official web belts can cinch up to size to hold anyone's pants up. I went on a diet a few years back, lost a ton of weight yet wore the same scout pants throughout the process. Few extra tucks and overlaps here and there, but I kept my modesty in tact. Stosh

Some states will not allow rented 15 passenger buses on their roads. I know for sure Iowa is one of them. Check the laws on such vehicles prior to traveling through multiple states. I had to put a ton of extra miles on a trip to by-pass Iowa a few years back. Stosh

If official above the belt and Hawaiian shorts below the belt is 50%, what's the percentage if it's any other kind of unofficial pants regardless of how much they look official.... I'm thinking that if it's a message one wishes to be conveyed to the boys, the percentage should stay at 50% uniformed. My prior troop took great pride in the fact that they were 100% official field uniformed. Were they all uniformed? Nope, some wore the older all green uniforms, but they found the proper historic insignia for the era. The boys got a ton of compliments wherever they went. The public does notice, but tends to be polite enough not to mention it. When was the last time I heard anyone compliment my boys on their uniforms? Hmmm, let me think.... this afternoon while they were doing a fundraiser at the local grocery store. Yep, working at a food booth in the hot sun in full uniform on Fathers' Day. Stosh

What's the big deal, the vast majority of scouts don't wear the BSA uniform correctly anyway. Units that do wear the uniform correctly stand out as an exception rather than the rule. Stosh

When I was in Cub Scouts as a DL, it was Scout uniform unless, the activity required it to be set aside temporarily. As long as there is no such thing as Class A/B uniforms, the boys either they wore the uniform or they didn't. What they wore when they were not in uniform is of no concern to me. As to the partial uniforming that 99% of the Pack think is "full Class A uniforms" that's a joke as well. We have bling and patches all over their shirts, neckers, hats, etc. and then they wear pajama pants with a ninja print. Give me a break, it looks rather,... well, ... stupid. I would rather the boys all showed up in blue jeans and white t-shirts. At least they would all be uniform. Stosh

I don't understand why so many people are surprised with this short speak. GI, JEEP, SNAFU, D-Day, H-Hour, HQ, etc. from the military, CEO, CFO, HR, R&D, etc. from business. It goes on all over the place. It's just that it's new to more people. Just ask the old secretaries that did dictation with shorthand. They had this stuff down pat! Stosh

YPT doesn't allow second chances with adults who take advantage of youth. Why should youth get second chances when they take advantage of youth? YPT spells it out UP FRONT, not after the fact. It's time units deal with these problems before they become an issue. Youth of this age know how to push the envelop. They are in the break-out stage of life where they test the limits of social norms. They have yet to learn to restrain themselves and need a program to explicitly spell that out in no uncertain terms. Well, we're so worried about being politically correct that we don't deal with the issue in straight forward discussions. Rule #1 - Safety First. If you don't feel safe, tell someone immediately. End of discussion. Stosh

GAMom, I don't know how the troop in your area is set up, but what you describe is something I've never had to address. I have never had one scout even attempt to harm another scout. My experience of dealing with such thing have occurred when I was in a different setting, i.e. CampMaster for the summer camp or some such thing outside my troop. Every boy that enters my scout troop knows about Rule #1 Safety First. This applies to the information in the little pamphlet inside the front cover of every scout book. I tell my boys that if they do not feel safe in the troop for any reason, they are to tell their PL. If the threat comes from the PL or the PL doesn't do anything about it, then go to the SM, If the threat comes from the SM or the SM doesn't do anything about it then another adult, then the parents, then anyone who will listen and as a last resort call the police. PERIOD. There are no second chances in my troop. Oh, by the way. Regardless of the physical, emotional, psychological or whatever problems a boy brings with him into the troop, it doesn't seem to manifest itself. I have never had to kick a kid out of Scouts. Maybe it's because I make the situation very clear before the crap happens. Rules, second chances, excuses, etc. are generally for those who don't do that and have to deal with such things after the fact. I have worked with BSA groups from Cubbing through to Venturing, I have worked with church youth groups, social youth groups, and at-risk youth groups and believe it or not the best behaved are the at-risk kids. They know they are on the cusp of some really bad stuff if they screw up. I hope you find a group for your children where none of this stuff happens, but I'm thinking that for the most part, it's a hopeless cause. I was 4' 11" 98# when I started high school. Yeah, I know what it's like to be on the short end of the stick. I figured it out and got over it. Actually, before he was my best friend in high school, he and I went a around or two after a den meeting one time. I remember having to explain the grass stains on my uniform to my mom. Stosh

For me it is the process by which the troop is organized. It is broken down into smaller groupings so that more boys will have an opportunity to function as leaders and have a group small enough that their emerging leadership isn't overwhelmed by numbers. Autonomy Commraderie Self-contained SUPPORT non-patrol member leaders when assistance is requested. EVALUATE the development of the patrol functionality. They are the first line of support for the PL's. The troop youth leadership may in fact have a de facto patrol of their own under the leadership of the ASPL. In larger troops, there may be multiple ASPL's if there are more than 6-7 troop officers. There is really no need for these troop offices unless there be 3 - 4 patrols. My current troop is only a week old, but yes, it was organized over the past year as a boy-led, patrol-method troop. My former troop was a boy-led, patrol-method troop until I was removed and then it went back to adult-led, troop-method. Before that the troop I was associated with had always been an adult-led, troop-method program where patrols existed in name only and to sort out groupings for the camporee competitions. With only 6 new boys, none of which are TF, we are just starting, but the boys sink or swim on the results of their decisions. They selected their PL by consensus. Adults do not participate in patrol meeting unless invited. If the boys leave the meeting room, TF physical fitness run, it is expected they notify an adult as a courtesy of their intentions. If we take on new Webelos boys next year, it will be interesting to see what the boys decide to do once they go above 8 boys. Whatever it is, it should be interesting. Stosh

I, too, have seen some bullies do a 180 and turn into great scouts. Each one needs to be evaluated individually. A generic rule for the troop would mean that at some time or another every boy would need to be kicked out. Stosh

Nope, not at all. In an ideal world, I would tend to agree with you and I have met a ton of really nice kids. I have worked with not so nice kids that turned into really nice kids. I have worked with a ton of what you would maybe define as reform school kids, (by the way, they were reform school kids) that some turned it around and did fairly well in life. I have had autistic, ADD, ADHD, mentally challenged, boys come through my programs. Some do well by the program, others not so well, but all of them have been better off having spent time in Scouting. If one is at all interested in knowing more about what BSA is supposed to be, go back to it's roots. Look at what BP had to say about the boys he worked with. Then do a Google search on Tom Slade, BSA. I think one might get a wee bit of where I'm coming from We don't get to cherry pick the boys (and girls) we have sign up with our program, but one has to be flexible enough to work with them all, even the Lord of the Flies, reform school kids. I'd love to have a whole troop of well behaved, motivated boys, but at age 63, I haven't found it yet. Maybe next year. Stosh

The worst instance of bullying for my kids was when my daughter was six years old and in an evening church AWANA program. When I arrived to pick up my daughter, she was crying in the corner with a big red welt on her face. Her head had been slammed into a table by an older boy. As I entered the room, the same older boy shoved another little one across the room where he slid under a chair and hit his head hard on the seat. I interved to stop the older kid from hurting anyone else and tried to take care of my daughter at the same time. The older kid was totally out of control. Not all negative behavior is bullying. If enough people miss-define the word, it will lose it's impact. I find no bully out of control. They know precisely what they are doing. When a child is out of control, they have more on their plate than just bullying. Stosh

Just wait until you have to go into a scout wall tent at summer camp and break up a knife fight. The parents were called to come pick up their boys. Of course they were out of council people and from 2 Midwest states away. At least only one set of parents had to come, the boys were brothers. As first adult on the scene, I only had to disarm them and break up the fight. Camp got the easy part. Another boy was kicked out of a different camp I attended because he stole something from the trading post. They caught him rather quickly because there weren't that many Eagle scouts in attendance that week. BSA helps develop the values of scouting within boys. They don't come that way! For some it's a 7 year process. Others, maybe not so long. I don't know what the world would be like if I got a whole troop full of boys like GAMom's son. I don't think I'd like it. I prefer to watch the progression from young boys to young men. Stosh

We were at a state park and they would not allow unattended minors to be separated from their supervision. The boys had most of the site, the Mrs. and I were off to one side. We did our own thing. We were not involved in the meals, programs or operations of the patrol. The only reason I got involved was I was done with breakfast, decamped and packed up. The Mrs. and I had our two lawn chairs and coffee and we were watching the boys. The commotion the boys were making was really something I'm sure other campers in the area wanted to hear early on a Sunday morning. As far as alternative solutions other than my one? I'm thinking that dragging the GrubMaster out by his feet and wailing on him with a wooden spoon would be the consensus of the open-ended question. I didn't want to go there. We did a 30 minute AAR in the site and a 1 hour AAR the following evening at the troop meeting. Waiting a week would indeed lose a lot of valuable information. Stosh

If you're blind, and have a braille keyboard, turn your screen off, it helps. Stosh

Hmmm, this gal never met my Grandmother. I remember back on the farm when it was time to fix Sunday dinner...? Two nails in a stump. Grab a chicken in one hand and an ax in the other. Make the connection and put the chicken on the ground so that the kids can enjoy it running around. Kids have fun, the chickens dead, can't feel pain and dinner will be served up as soon as the chicken stops running and Grandma can pluck it, dress it and cook it. I can't remember back when humans were not omnivores but it's pretty irrelevant today. Stosh

Can not make up new rules as one goes along. There are only three. The three most important ones decided by the boys. Generally the boys don't do much "switching off" when they feel like it. I find that if done right, every boys at certain times steps up and takes the lead when the situation calls for it regardless of the patch on his shirt. The "cook" on Sunday morning slept in. When the five other boys were all standing around his tent shaking it telling him to get up, they were hungry, I went over and stood there and didn't say anything. After a while one of the boys looked at me and asked if I could tell him to get up and make breakfast. I said that wasn't my job, but if I got really hungry, I would have gone over and got the cereal out of the chuck box and made my own breakfast. After about 5 minutes, all the boys, except for the cook, were sitting at the table having breakfast. Problem solving is a necessary skill for any good leader. AAR is After Action Review, After Activity Report, etc. something the boys and adults do to reflect and correct challenges the boys had to face. Eventually this process will be ritualized by the boys and everyone will get a chance to express their feelings about the events they are involved with. What did you like? What did you not like? What about the food? What about the activities? etc. People more readily learn from their mistakes than they do with their successes. Successes entrench quickly. It worked, never change or improve it. If it ain't broken don't fix it. Mistakes are always fluid and developing new and better ways to "fix" what's not right. It's also a great opportunity to sit and listen to what the boys think are important enough to mention during this time. Who's speaking up? Who's not? Who's trying to offer solutions? Who's not? etc. If the boys are running the show here, they had better get it out in the open what the show is. If the boys need to ask the adults something they can address it there in front of everyone, too. If the boys are going to learn something from each activity, they really should be doing AAR's on a regular basis. I've been doing it for years with all my youth groups and this is probably one of the main reasons why I have very few discipline problems, leadership problems, etc. No one wants to get called out at the end of the event as not having held up their end of the deal. Stosh

Reality check time! I take it one isn't aware of commercial fishing? Netted and left to suffocate. Or the extermination industry? Sticky traps? Hog, turkey, or chicken confinement procedures? Never see the light of day... ever. Insecticides on your lawn? Kills grubs so the moles starve to death. Rat poison? Thins their blood and when they cut themselves, usually something they eat, they slowly bleed to death. The best story I know is in my hometown. Bear was out on the edge of town when people saw it first. They started chasing it and it fled into town. Crowd got bigger and bigger and bear in a panic went up a tree in a city park near where the children were playing. It was determined to be a threat to the huge crowd that had gathered especially the children playing there. The police shot it out of the tree and dragged it off in front of all those kids. The tranquilizer gun at the human society was just a few blocks away. What about those animals confined in the zoos? Ever pay to go see them and contribute to their confinement? Everyone has their pet cause they promote. Unfortunately not many people really change their behavior. People will continue to hunt and fish just like they have since before recorded history. Stosh

OMG, LOL, BTW do we do that? Stosh The creepy thing about it? I understand what Baggss is saying....