Stosh

If it's a legal issue, let the courts decide what needs to be done. If they slap him on his wrist and send him home, so be it. I'm thinking the parents are going to heap a load of coals on him and now it's up to the BSA to add to that. Maybe we ought to get the school and church in on this little game of dump on the dummy. I'm all for dragging him out in the parking lot and shooting him as an example to the rest of the boys. But if you do, make sure that along with the blindfold, you give him the right kind of cigarette. Stosh

So you screwed up on the budgeting. Everyone had a good time. Everyone felt they got their money's worth. This is just natures way of letting you know that some years you're going to come up short, some years break even, and some years come up with a surplus. If the troop has enough money to cover other expenses and this is a just nice money to have, buy equipment for the troop, it sounds like it's getting bigger. Council doesn't care one bit about it. It was not promoted as a fundraiser it didn't need to be classified as one. Expenses were favorable this year, next year will be different. The planners had no idea how the funding would turn out. Like farming. When you put the seed in the ground, it would be nice to have a bumper crop, but until the harvest is in, you're not going to know. Your COR has too much free time on his hands. Stosh

I just love it when one finds it necessary to consistently take another's comments out of context. For one thing I don't put much stock in Eagles in general. Why? Because some Eagles turn out a rather poor example of what the program is intended to be, while others excel well beyond expectations. Pretty hard to "put much stock" into a conversation when one hasn't defined which Eagle one is talking about. Like any other situation in life, there are the good, the bad and the ugly. In some cases, yes, the Eagle is the problem and in other cases no the Eagle is not. The Eagle that does just enough to get by is not the same as the Eagle that we are surprised at what he has been able to accomplish in just 7 years. A 13 year old Eagle and out is not the same as the 13 year old Eagle that has put in 4 fantastic years helping others get their Eagle too. Raising the bars do nothing more than motivate the lazy ones to step it up a bit. The others spend all their time looking down to see where the bar is out of a sense of curiosity at best. So what does earning the Eagle rank have to do with scouts that are doing it for themselves, i.e. resume line item and the Eagles that earn it so that they are prepared to help other people at all times. Both earned it. Fine. But that's where the comparison stops according to BSA. So yes, I have high expectatins, but it has nothing to do with the hierarchy of the BSA ranks. So if one were to add on a few more ranks, it still wouldn't make one iota difference in the way I feel about Eagles or whatever the next rank or two might be. Yep, he earned Eagle and has also earned every MB offered..... All for himself. What did he do for his buddies? It's easy to have a disparaging attitude towards Eagle when it can be earned with little or no leadership ability along the way. This process starts with TF, and theoretically improve through the ranks. But there's nothing there in the ranks to promote that. Stosh

"Everything in life happens for a reason. Sometimes the reason is because you're stupid and make bad choices." Okay, who's going to toss the first stone here? While not as severe as this situation, I have had boys screw up big time while earning their Eagle and this is what I have always done. Take away all POR from the boy. He is now "just a member of a patrol." He's got 1 year to prove to me and to himself he has the leadership ability and character traits to be an Eagle. I then ignore him, but keep one eye on him at all times. There are only two outcomes to this situation. 1) the boy will quit and maybe join another troop that will take him without the above mentioned requirement or 2) he will prove himself worthy. So, how does it work? Well, let's just say I have had two boys fall into this situation in my career. Both chose #2 and strangely enough I wear their 2 Eagle mentor pins on my uniform collar. Stosh

I wonder what the Webelos cross-over retention would be if the den had an Eagle DC? I wonder how effective right out of the blocks the NSP would be if they had an Eagle TG? I wonder how well the boy-led, patrol-method of scouting would be if the PL's were all Eagle PL's? I wonder what a Venture Patrol would do if they were all Eagles? The more I think about it, the more I wonder how much potential BSA passes on because they don't run the program efficiently nor effectively. What a lot of missed opportunity goes on with the system they have created. Stosh

Mountain Men? Big time outdoors. Voyageurs? Big time outdoors with canoeing. Honor Scouts Society was and could be brought back. Maybe add Honor Scouts Camping Society. OA doesn't yell camping at anyone even though it should. Pioneers, could include the ladies as well. Frontiersmen Trailblazers Zombie Apocalyptic Survivalists - Just tossed that one in, but I'd bet it would sell in today's culture. Parlor Scouts might work for some. It shouldn't be all that difficult. Stosh

David, I only bring up the issue, but I do like Old_Ox_Eagle83's comment: "Also remember the OA was originally known as BSA's Honor Camper Society, and was born at Treasure Island Scout Camp, as a summer camp program. There are those who have forgotten that " ... the Order of the Arrow is a thing of the Outdoors and camping". The OA isn't a thing of dormitories and fun games; one of the crisis we face is loosing sight of our purpose. "The Order of the Arrow is a thing of the spirit rather than of mechanics. Organization, operational procedure, and paraphernalia are necessary in any large and growing movement, but they are not what count in the end. The things of the spirit count" Dr. E Earner Goodman" I'm thinking the tradition may in fact be so strong it has overpowered the nature of the program. My OA lodge does very little if anything to promote camping in the council. They set up the camp, do a few ordeal sessions, have a few parties, tear down the camp at the end of the season, and pretty much do nothing more. If it's a youth run program, focused on camping, why aren't they the ones running the spring and fall camporees? Why aren't they beating the bushes for summer camp promotions? Oh, that's right we have adults that do all of that. There is no need for the kids today to do that.... maybe other than a prestigious patch on the shirt, maybe there's no need for the honor camping society anymore either. That surely would solve the aboriginal culture issue rather quickly, too. How come I'm the only one that can see the elephant in the room? Stosh

Hmmm, start out as a private, work your way up to sergeant, take officer training, go from captain to general. Then what? Retire? or serve as you have been trained to do as a general. How many troops have actively serving Eagle scouts under the age of 18? I'm thinking that percentage is pretty low. I'm thinking that the majority of them have gotten the JASM patch and are pretty much doing very little. Yes there will be an exception or two out there, but that's what they are, the exception. The rank means very little to me. I have seen an Eagle scout get kicked out of summer camp for shop lifting at the trading post and I have seen some fantastic scouts of great character at every rank including Eagle. The rank might make a real scout, but character makes a scout real. Stosh

And what if it had been cigarettes? Or what if it had been alcohol? or what if it had been prescription drugs? or what if..... TIme for some fuzzy logic thinking here. Sounds like the camp has had this issue before. Sounds like the Sheriff's going to bend his ear a bit and then he gets a ride home. Looks like everyone is going a "pass the buck" to the point where it's going to be someone else's problem. So then the question becomes, what are you going to do with the buck? Depending on the severity of the issue one has to play the fuzzy theory card. How bad is "over the line"? Do you know where the line is? What if it's only an itsy bit over the line? Is this situation salvageable? Does the boy get a second chance? Do we blackball him from all scouting? etc. I guess it kinda comes down to the character of the SM as much as it does on the character of the scout. Stosh

I didn't want to hijack the other thread... "The Purpose of the OA is: ◦Recognize those who best exemplify the Scout Oath and Law in their daily lives and through that recognition cause others to conduct themselves in a way that warrants similar recognition. ◦Promote camping, responsible outdoor adventure, and environmental stewardship as essential components of every Scout’s experience, in the unit, year-round, and in summer camp. ◦Develop leaders with the willingness, character, spirit and ability to advance the activities of their units, our Brotherhood, Scouting, and ultimately our nation. ◦Crystallize the Scout habit of helpfulness into a life purpose of leadership in cheerful service to others." - from SR540Beaver's post Although traditions can run strong in a culture it often begs the question as to whether or not some of it should be dropped. We as a culture are bending over backwards to be intolerant to those who use references to the aboriginal cultures. How long will it be before that wave of intolerance reaches the BSA and it's OA references to such culture? We got the religious issue to deal with, we have the homosexual issue to deal with, and soon it will be the OA's turn. A bunch of white guys dressing up in less than authentic traditional dress of the culture and make-believing in some sort of ritual reflected of their religion. I'm kind of surprised our culture has let it go on as long as it has. Homosexual and theistic beliefs are morally based, but if one were to use a litmus test of morality with the aboriginal culture usage, one might have a difficult time defending it on any grounds other than simply tradition and that might no longer be appropriate. So, then, where in the purpose of the OA does it reference the need for the aboriginal culture to be used? Could it be better served with something the boys could relate to more directly? Stosh

Eagle Scouts have been doing this for years, and for more reasons than political gain. How many people know of President Ford's involvement in scouting? Neil Armstrong? Steven Spielberg? etc. Citizenship MB's??? aren't they all political in nature? We promote good citizenship and then punish when they follow up on it? So here we have a currently registered scouter in uniform. I don't see a problem. I would be very concerned if he was not currently registered, but would not be upset with information about his scouting history in his promotional material. Stosh

So how did this discussion go from a SM banning elections to the CO banning elections? What's the sense of having district and council events if the CO bans them? Sounds like it may be time to pull the charter, which BSA can do as well. It used to be the CO and BSA worked together FOR THE BOYS. Obviously in this day and age, it seems to be suggested here that that may no longer hold true. Stosh

With OA being a council organization, how does the CO have the right to ban participation in it? They may own the unit and can dictate what happens within the troop, but except for the election, OA doesn't participate in unit activities. OA elections will be held this coming Saturday in the City Park. All the boys wishing to participate are invited to come. End of discussion. If one were to carry this logic further, one would have the CO dictating what summer camp to attend and whether or not the unit can participate in such things as Popcorn sales, camporees, NYLT, and any other disctrict/council activities. Stosh

I wonder if that's going to be his new best piece of advice he failed to take? Stosh

You have an understanding of reverence and tolerance, that's a good thing, but for this other nice fellow, "It is better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt." This is why I have become anti-sectarian. I don't worship the traditions, I worship the religion. If someone's tradition of free prayer runs contrary to another's form prayer, there's something seriously wrong with their attitude towards their religion, it seems to be taking a back seat to their traditions. I'm a spiritualist, not a traditionalist. Oh my we can't have people dancing, it's a sin!, but David danced before the altar of the Lord. Gambling is a sin!!, but the Apostles drew lots to determine who was to replace Judas. Drinking?? Well we all know about the scandal at Cana. The list goes on and on! Stosh

There are so many "studies" out there now that are showing that a lot of what we eat may or may not be an allergen. I just read a study that said that gluten allergen is a hoax, but Madison Avenue has made a fortune off of it. With all the additives in processed foods today, who's to say which of the 50-75 ingredients in any one particular product is the culprit? I understand such things as peanuts and shell fish are deadly and must be avoided at all cost. How many foods out there are processed with peanut oil? Good luck! While it is noble to watch out for the other guy, turning one's own responsibilities over to another is a rather risky endeavor and I would not recommend it to anyone. This whole thing came to my attention with one of my children. We moved to a new city when he was about 4 and within days my son developed a severe "allergy" to dairy. He loved cheese and butter, drank milk every day and all of a sudden he couldn't have any of these. Well, he would sneak them all the time and get violently ill. Well after 4 years we moved again, and my son kept on sneaking his dairy. Well, lo and behold, within days of moving, he NEVER has reacted negatively to dairy since. Well, I have no idea what was going on, but I think I can be pretty sure what we were calling a dairy allergy really wasn't. To this day, I do not have a problem with mess-kit cooking and do it all the time. If I did have a problem with certain foods (which I do to a minor extent) then I can simply make the personal adjustments when I do my own cooking. Knowing that there are ingredients that will cause me problem in certain foods, I simply take a polite pass on them and do my own thing. Extra hot spicy Mexican/Southwestern meals will double me up in terrible pain, but super hot spicy Oriental will not. Go figure! I'm still trying to figure out what the difference is between the two. Stosh

People think they have a clear understanding of an issue when basically they are clueless. It happens all the time and BSA is not exempt from such foolishness. Duty to God???? Okay, it's spelled out specifically to most people, but there are probably as many different definitions as there are people. Duty to Country? Okay, that's easy, military veterans. Well I was 4-F, so how do I fulfill my duty to my country? I work with kids, I was a volunteer EMT in a small community with medical services, I worked food pantries, and served up food at homeless shelter. But of course not being a veteran, I haven't REALLY done my duty to my country. Yo, People! The world consist of more than your personal line-of-sight! Stosh

The CA's dad need a lesson on what it means to be reverent. And by the way, one does not ever need to apologize for the form, content, or quality of anyone's prayers. A simple, "I wasn't talking to you." usually is sufficient to deter any complaints. Stosh

And he didn't use the word God, and he didn't sign it with his name. Stosh

My kid brother used to drive charter buses out of Rochester MN. He got frequent assignments to go to the BWCA with a group charter. It was cheaper to drive the bus up, pay the driver for the week and then drive back than to make the bus trip twice. He'd end up with 6-8 weeks in the BWCA as a bus driver. He still says they were the best summers of his life. I was surprised the number of scout and college groups that used this option. Stosh

I did a slight variation on that. We met weekly for "normal" meetings and did our field trips on Saturday. We met for only a half hour. It was plenty for the attention span of those boys. We, did however, go year around just like the Boy Scouts. At the end of the first year, we had completed all the pins and started repeating those that some of the boys had missed. Nice review. But we also planned a major last outing that second summer (big campout they organized) The boys then moved on Boy Scouts when they aged out of Webelos, most of them the Fall before the second Blue-Gold when they traditional crossed-over. That gave them the whole winter and spring to get ready for summer camp. Because we worked so hard on the pins, the boys were basically TF 30 days after cross-over and most were well on their way to FC by the time they reached summer camp for the first time. And no, they weren't bored because they had been-there-done that before they got to Boy Scouts. Instead they all Eagled at 16-17 age and had a blast in Boy Scouts. Stosh

I wonder if the Christians ever thought about how Jesus prayed considering he was Jewish and not Christian???.... ???? And yes, I'm anti-sectarian and it shows. Stosh

They stood in polite reverence to the proceedings the same as the Christian Scout should do if the World Jamboree happens to occur in some place like India, Israel or a Mid-eastern country. It's called "A Scout is Reverent". Stosh

And how many troops/councils out there are prepared to handle Sabbath worshipers with the current camporee schedules? If one is not dietarily restricted because of physical issues, well they have to make arrangements on their own. They don't need a Padre to preach at them, they have to contend with a ton of more important issues dished out by the insensitivity of the BSA and it's councils/units. Yes a few complain, but the vast majority of them honor their Scout Oath and Law far better than the Christians. A token gesture of dropping the name Jesus out of the prayers just doesn't really cut it much. Stosh