Stosh

I hope that was a teachable moment for all of them. My grandmother used to tell me to never poke a stick at a sleeping dog unless you wanted to get bit. Stosh

Why is it politically correct for people to discriminate against the BSA? .... but not the other way around. I'm glad people are starting to stand up to such bigotry. Kudos to the Associated General Contractors of Vermont as well. Stosh

I know how to settle this... We all just discriminate against people we think discriminate. As far as service project hours out there, there are a lot of community based organizations that would LOVE to have the boys come and help and they won't care about the politics, just the help. Do you seriously think that the homeless veteran getting his only hot meal of the day from a scout standing there in uniform is all that worried about his political position on homosexuality? Life will get a lot easier once people start looking at the big picture and quit wasting their time on the petty issues that are PC du jour. Stosh

MattR, You've taken the first step and it's a good one. You set up the boundaries, you got a commitment and you gained respect as a helpful ally in this young man's recovery. Well done. The trust will need time, but it sounds like you'll do alright. Keep us posted, I think this boy has a chance. Yes, like Fred says, there are no instructions, but I'm thinking that so far, you've got the right attitude to make it work. Stosh

But as an ASM you can learn as well to better relate to your son during these developmental years. Don't think for a moment that letting someone else guide your child through the rough waters of adolescence is a good thing. It's a journey for both parent and child. In this day and age of nannies, child care providers, coaches, teachers, pastors, etc. etc. etc. one can "raise" a child and never have to interact with them. That's really sad. never underestimate the power of simply being there just in case. If nothing else, but to cheer him on and encourage him to push the envelop. He will notice, I guarantee it. The SM may make a great role model, but no matter what, you're still Dad and that trumps everything else. Stosh

Forgot to mention, the Philmont trek I did was 110 miles and we stood on the top of all 5 highest peaks. It was a lot easier paddling the 62 mile trek in the BWCA the following year. If one is going to go for real adventure for the boys, ya gotta be in shape to keep up. At almost 64, I can still out hike, out paddle and out bike most of the couch potato boys I have in the troop. Stosh

This is an interesting observation. You are spot on with the emphasis from your perspective, but to move from doing to observing is quite a challenge, but a good one for not only your son, but you yourself. It's great working directly with your son when he's in Cubs, but once he goes into Boy Scouts, the relationship changes as well as it should as your child grows up into adulthood. But how then do I relate to him in a worthwhile way as he grew in independence? I loved it when my kids were small and I had the opportunity to relate one-on-one with them. But as they grew and spread their wings so to speak, I felt kinda left out. It's a struggle in those years as to how much do I let go and let be so they can be ready for adulthood themselves. It's a tightrope act to say the least. In a way, both programs are good to be a part of for your kids, and while more difficult, working with your boy on the Boy Scout level has great rewards as well. My children are children for just a short period of time, They will be my grown children for quite some time. Was I ready for that inevitable change? (Still working on it, but now I got grand children to make up for it!) Stosh

It's there, you just aren't squinting hard enough. They had to make the font small, it's a secret ceremony. Stosh

Depending on your physical conditioning at the present time, you will need to start training for it. I was 50 years old and started a year in advance. By the time I was getting on the train to go to Philmont I could carry twice the recommended weight up and down very steep hills here in the Midwest. Well, I hit the thin air of New Mexico and it was a whole new ballgame! Because I over trained I could back off on the weight and slow the pace down and I did just fine. I couldn't keep up with the 18 year olds, but I got to where I needed to be at a reasonable amount of time. If BSA recommends being able to carry 50# of pack, for 15 miles on uneven terrain, and that's all you do and you come from low altitude, you're going to be in a world of hurt. Besides conditioning, read up on backpacking and learn to take seriously any and all suggestions the experts have to tell you. The heavy leather hiking boots might help protect your ankles over the course of a march, but by the end of the day, those 1# shoes are going to feel like 10#'s. I'd say it would be important that you and your son do this together. On my contingent, we had two father/son combos and what ended up happening for both was when the son weenied out, the dad's took on extra weight to help them out. Make sure your son has some skin in the game and can handle himself. Stosh

At some time or another in life, we all have to "bounce back" from doing something stupid, wrong, mean, or whatever. No one slides through life without picking up a few scars along the way. I wouldn't be in too much of a hurry to undo something that has probably taken years to develop as Dubroq points out. But the lesson is not something that can be pencil whipped like advancement requirements. It's going to take time to heal, time to build trust, time to make amends, time for a whole bunch of stuff to happen for this boy to undo the damage. However, the time should be reasonable. If after 6-8 months he's showing progress and building trust, then maybe a year would be okay to relax around him. But a constant dialog with the boy on his journey of recovery is really important because he's going to have to learn to trust adults as well. They're all going to be coming down pretty hard on him and there's one thing every kid knows, adults have a tendency to remember such things far beyond what is necessary. This isn't going to be a quick, take a pill, kind of fix. It's a healing process that can't be rushed. Stosh

In my area, there are far more than 6 troops to contend with. We have 5 troops to the north of us within easy driving distance and twice that many to the south. I'm the fool that put a brand new unit right in the middle of all of that and continue to grow, took on a new boy again last week. " He was sent home from summer camp (which is plenty) and generally scouting does not use "punishments". We use positive corrections. As for help, the courts and family are going to deal with this plenty. He's going to have enough people "helping" him." For me it's not an issue of trust. I may never trust the boy again, but that's not the issue, I can always keep an eye on him for the most part. The part that bothers me the most is the second line. "As for help....". As scouts we have all promised to "help other people at all times". This is part of a general pass the buck mentality that seems to think it's someone else's problem. I guess it may be better to cut him loose from the troop than to simply wait to see if you can ever trust him again. I don't see that as being very productive to anyone connected to the situation. I guess for me when someone has difficulties in life there is no such thing as having enough people helping. While not everyone is a trained counselor in a situation like this, but then being a friend to this kid doesn't need much training. Right now, I'm thinking he's feeling he hasn't anyone in his corner right now. Stosh

Unless it's school where the scout is required by law to attend, any other organization out there can be afflicted by this problem as well. While it is one thing to view the scouting world as some sort of Pollyanna idealized youth program, it's probably not really what's going on. It might be the easy way out to bounce him from the organization, but that means the frustrated parents will seek another organization out there to help their boy. This pin-ball approach to problems doesn't solve problems, it only passes the buck on to the next guy out there. The troop's reputation may take a bit of tarnish on this, but if the BSA touts itself as developing young men of good character and then just cherry pick the kids that are already 3/4th the way there, then it really isn't doing its job. A reputation is not based on the problems it has, but on how it handles them. A youth program that only helps those that don't need help is of no help at all. Stosh

If it was fun doing it the first time, why wouldn't it be fun doing it again? Stosh

While a unit as a whole cannot support a candidate, the individuals may. However in this case the person wearing the uniform IS the candidate. Nothing in the literature says he can't. He can't support another candidate, but he can certainly promote himself in the volunteer roles and causes he supports. Can a teacher promote their position as a candidate without it reflecting on the school? Sure. Can a pastor promote their position as a candidate without it reflecting on the church? Sure. Can a family man promote his position as a candidate by dragging out his wife and kids? Sure. Can a guy put on an apron and serve up dinner at the Salvation Army food center without it becoming a church/state issue? Sure. I for one would like to know were his character development came from and if he is a former scout and is currently a scouter, then I want to know this. If he's spent year working with the Girls and Boys Club, I want to know that too. If he has helped out with the 4-H kids, I want to know that. Maybe the only issue here is the person doesn't like the idea that this is not their candidate and such a gesture is going to sway voters away from their candidate. Is there a wee bit of politickin' going on here that hasn't been brought to light? The only issue might be his two sons supporting him in their uniforms. Maybe they out to jerk their registration for such flagrant abuse of the symbols of BSA for their family. Stosh

. ...and now you're making assumptions, too. Stosh

Okay, where does it say the boy gets a pass on what I would do? Where does it say I add anything to the requirements? Where does it say he has to make amends? Where does it say he has to be remorseful? This kid knows he's in deep crapola over this, I don't need to rain fire and brimstone down on him. All I am saying is that I will hit the pause button for 1 year and it's up to the boy to prove whatever it is he feel necessary to either fix, resolve or simply learn to live with what he has done. It's tough on everyone to withhold a signature for a year, maybe less if the boy is showing good progress, but it's only for a short time, not forever. Stosh

It would seem that there are those on the forum who tend to participate in such activity. Like Fred says, " Be careful. When you just said can easily be turned around to infer character and quality issues about you as a scout leader. Dimishing comments reflect more on the speaker than the scout." Stosh

Holds true for everyone, especially those with a hidden agenda. Stosh

What surprises me is why would any Venturing Crew want to spend a week at summer camp? There's a ton of stuff out there that would qualify as far more adventurous than watching the younger boys earn their MB's. As I sit here writing this, I can think of literally hundreds of other things out there I would do before I considered a week at council's summer camp. Stosh

Like any other stereotype, there is no such thing as one size fits all for Eagles. Some Eagles are parlor scouts/paper Eagles who's only goal was to get the rank for themselves which they accomplished. Then there are the real scouts who put in 7 years of leadership development, build a strong basis for their character, serve and lead others to improve their lot in life, etc. While they both get the same certificate, wear the same medal and have achieved the same ranking in Scouting, they are not judged equally by those who know them and/or get to know them down the road. Just remember Robert E. Lee graduated at the top of his class at West Point while George Armstrong Custer was at the bottom of his. So, how did that work out for old George and the men he was supposed to be leading? It tells a lot about the character of a man when the men who served under him referred to him as a circus on a horse. So, sometimes when someone refers to Paper Eagles it just may be reflecting on the scout.... Stosh

Sounds like a good candidate for option #2. He just may end up a better person than he not done this. This is what growing up is all about. Stosh

TAHAWK, In an earlier post I did spell out what I would do in a situation like this. Please refer back to #20. Yes, I would give him a second chance. I think that if this is an isolated incident (the post doesn't really say anyone saw this coming), he should be given a second chance. If it seems to be part of a pattern, then there have been enough chances already. This is a call the SM needs to make having more info than what we have on the forum. After all are we not bound by oath to help other people at all times? I'm thinking that applies to this kid as well. If I can't live up to those words, how can I expect the scouts to? It's tough to live up to the Oath and Law as an adult, the kids are just trying it out for the first time with a lot less experience and maturity. Basement, One can't add or remove anything as part of advancement requirements. I would think that doing everything in my power to make it difficult is a flagrant abuse of one's authority. If that be one's conclusion, then I'm with Fred, cut the kid loose. Stosh

It's the Scouter Training Award, WB should cover at least 50% of those requirements at the minimum. Stosh

Hmmm, it's too bad BSA doesn't require uniforms, it would solve the problem right then and there. But I do like Basement's General Hooker logic. Stosh