Stosh

Bullies and abusers who suffer no consequences will continue their behavior. Pavlov's experiments prove this out. As long as it doesn't garner pain, the activity will continue.

Almond extract for pancakes, french toast. A bit of sugar in the mashed potatoes. Chili powder on corn-on-the-cob. Apple cider in stead of water in the stew. Garlic and bacon bits in the mashed potatoes. Cream cheese and sour cream in the mashed potatoes. Apple pie filling and BBQ sauce over pork chops. Apple sauce and sweet cabbage (red) over pork loin roast. Zucchini, summer squash and onions sauteed in Balsamic vinegar. Just to name a few...

It sounds like the US Tax Code. Every IRS agent one talks to will give a differing opinion, none of which will hold up as evidence if audited. With that being said, BSA spends a lot of time creating award programs riddled with check box scorecards to fill out. Once completed, bling is doled out. It'll look pretty on some shirt or page of a scrapbook. What BSA hasn't figured out how to do is transition the superficial check box method over into internalized life strategies for the recipient's life. If one thinks 10 hours of service project of disputed activities (for me and my award) is going to instill in the awardee a sense of personal pride for a job done for someone else with nothing but a thank you in return? After all a simply Thank You isn't much of an award down the road when it really counts.... not for you, per se, but it counts for the person being served. That's when it's real.

As always BSA has left it vague enough for one to decide whatever they want. I'd say check the box and move on.

There are those that are of the opinion that service hours should serve non-BSA entities. After all, if one served as Crew President, isn't that volunteering above and beyond the normal crew requirements? Or the Crew member that organizes a service project. The project took 4 hours to accomplish but the Crew member put in an additional 2 organizing it. It falls into a rather grey area to say the least. My personal take on the whole thing is by the time one is 14+ years old, doing service for others shouldn't need a tally sheet. Last year I put in many hours as a SM for a BSA troop, a few more for District Commissioner. Other organizations look at that as volunteering and count hours on it. Then I put in a few hours for the United Way, many hours for my church youth work and 4,000+ hours for the American Red Cross. In the past 2 weeks, I put 1,000+ miles on a Red Cross vehicle working two different Disaster Relief Operations. So, what counts and what doesn't count as BSA service hours in my case? I'd say if one is looking to do just the minimum, there's a problem somewhere along the line. Awards and bling are nice, but the people being served are grateful for your help and don't really care too much about you getting an award. I almost forgot, should I count my Daily Good Turns in there someplace?

https://scouting.co1.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_6Gp90QFpWs6O0y9[ I hope this link works.

What a person says and what a person does are often times two entirely different thngs, especially when taken out of context which seems to be the new normal in any conversation anyone makes. Since elected the Dow Jones has jumped 4,000+ points setting yet another new record each day just about. Then the big spin about did Trump create a million new jobs? Maybe not directly, but just by taking office the business world seemed to take on some traction. Is there a corollary? Maybe, maybe not, who cares, business is improving. He shut the trade agreements with foreign countries who were dumping product in America and getting the cash to benefit their own countries. Well, just recently with the shut down, A multi-billion dollar plant is being proposed by a Japanese company for our state. They know that even if every part is foreign made, if assembled in America it can tout the Made in America label. Misleading? Nope, because the payroll for employees in an industrial setting is often the largest cost to a business and all that payroll money stays in America. Catering to big business or helping out the little guy? A bit of both I would suspect. I think they call it a win/win situation. The largest medical insurance provider just pulled out of our state's Obamacare program along with many others. Less and less competition does not bode well for the people needing insurance. Last I heard one company was asking for a 80% increase in premiums. One doesn't ask unless they think they can get it. Maybe the wall isn't going to get built anytime soon, but the number of people deported for the 20th time seems to be declining and there are indications that the flow of illegals is going down. So they say anyway. Who knows if it is really true. Defiant sanctuary cities are now targets of their political stance. We all learned as we were growing up, there are consequences for one's choices. We did, we adjusted and if these people are serious about their agenda, then they will adjust to the cut in taxpayers' money. I guess one might think that much of these comments have to do with Trump, but no one's giving him any credit so I'm thinking he's off the hook. However the American social, political and financial environments have changed since he was elected. I'm glad they are changing the way they are and if it has nothing to do with Trump, then he can stay as a "do nothing" or challenged at every step all he wants. I'm not in college getting a useless degree that's going to cost me for the rest of my life, nor am I an not unemployed looking for a job (unemployment in my area is the lowest it has been for the past 20 years). our specific area ranks at the bottom of people having credit problems, I'm retired on Medicare, my supplement is affordable, and I own my own home outright. From where I'm sitting, one is going to have a difficult time convincing me that things are not etting better over the past 6 months. Just sayin'.

I just don't expect any time frame, I don't spell out expectations, nor do I monitor. Yes, there's guess work involved, but it's not mine, it's the scouts. HE has to figure out what it is going to take to fix HIS problem. If there is no attempt at improved choices, then the trust of his remorse disappears. If it gets worse, then he will be invited to leave and find another troop more to his liking. If there are clear cut expectations, fine. It's just a matter of who is going to make them, me or the scout. I put the expectations on the scout. He created this situation, he can fix it. During this recovery period, I do give the scouts the opportunity to make good choices and build his trust back up. I don't put "old grudge" barriers in his progress. Even if he did screw up, I'm not going to have him jump through hoops to prove his trust to me, I prefer he simply proves that he has learned from this incident. Support and advice is always available for the asking. I have to live the Oath and Law even if he doesn't.

And the point being..... how long is that going to take after he hassled the boys in the first place. Yes, it can be done, but not only does he have to start over from scratch, the hill he has to climb is steeper. I had a Life scout pull a fast one. I told him if he ever wants an Eagle recommendation from he he had better prove it to me. He was only 15 at the time so he had plenty of time to think about it. He did, and he did. If there ever was an exemplary scout he was it. When I handed him my recommendation, I suggested next time taking the easier route and doing it right the first time. He smiled and said that was his plan from now on.

Did you notice the survey didn't have a "Don't mess with what we got." option? That way one knows it's a biased survey. No matter what the statistics show, the leave it alone numbers will never show up. That's how one gets the statistic that 100% of the people surveyed said that some sort of program for girls is wanted in the organization.

Didn't you as a kid, when given the task to sweep up, just lift the corner of the rug and hope Mom didn't check up on you? It's a lesson we all learn and some of us never unlearn it when we finally grow up.

Hmmm.... A Scout is Trustworthy. This boy broke that trust. It takes a long time to build trust but a split second to lose it. How does one measure the trust building of a second chance?????

If allowed, the boys have enough brains to figure out where the ice cream section is if given the chance. I just cut to the chase.

Hold the branch, I'm right behind you.

I was on a canoe/fishing trip up near the BWCA with some of the boys. We needed some mid-week supplies and when I showed up with a 5-qt pail of ice cream (dry ice). it was Christmas in July!

Even with the local option, there will be repercussions. Camporees used to be a great thing in our council. This last fall camporee our District didn't have one and the district next door had 4 troops attend. I don't know what happened with the other district. If traditional troops don't like the co-ed option, they simply boycott council and district activities, and that would include summer camps. We have troops already doing that and it will only escalate to those sitting the fence. "You want summer camp or high adventure this summer?" Let the boys decide. Summer camp his history!

Or mom could bake cookies and send them along for free. Toss in a popcorn popper and popcorn on the fire....with your buddies. It's a good idea, but one of the biggest problems I face is pizza and soda at the trading post, where the boys eat there rather than the patrol food back at camp. Those with money get treats, those without don't. Lots of "messages" floating through the camp with this kind of thing. I had a picky eater that lived out of the trading post and when the money ran out, he somehow survived on those cheezy fish crackers. Other than an IV, I had no idea how to get nourishment into this kid. Granted life isn't fair, but one doesn't need to have to deal with this while the other boys are supposed to be having fun. A few of my parents ship big enough packages along to camp with a note that says, "SM: Open on Wednesday night after supper" and it's enough goodies for everyone to have a snack. Scores a ton of good points for the boy and his parents.

I think you know me well enough to know where I'm coming from. No judgment, just some thoughts. Looking at your solution where is the step where the scout internalizes it? Maybe the only lesson he learned is 1) don't get caught next time. 2) if you do dad will have a few hoops to jump through again. and 3) I'll have to think of things to do to convince the SM to let me off the hook. (Ya gotta think like a kid on this one. My Mrs. will attest to that. She says I'm an expert on it.) All those steps are outward demonstrations, kinda like checking off boxes of things to do to clear the air on this issue. We all know that one of the boxes for TF is memorize the Scout Oath and Law. It doesn't say LEARN it. One can memorize it and yet not know or feel the understanding of the words. It takes me a long time to work on that and every learning opportunity to do so I take. What would you add to your comment that will help me understand how this helps (not forces) the boy to actually learn from his mistakes, other than jumping through Dad and SM hoops.

Yep, this is normal. Just don't panic. Your #1 job is to listen, #2 is to ask questions and #3 refrain from any judgmental comments. SM: Hi, Johnny, what's up ? Johnny: My dad said I should talk to you about what happened at summer camp. SM: Okay, what happened ? Johnny: I got into trouble a couple of times and I want to apologize. SM: Okay, apologize for what ? Johnny: I did ..... SM: Why did you choose that choice ? Johnny: It sounded like fun at the time. SM: So, how did that work out for you ? Johnny: Not good, I got into trouble. SM: So will you be making better choices next time ? Johnny: Yes. That conversation, of course, is idealized, but the idea behind anything you do is to simply ask and listen, his attention will be focused on the event (not him) and what choices he made that need correcting. He keeps ownership of the problem and you only facilitate an adult level understanding of consequences. I find that trying to justify his error by quoting the Scout Law and where he failed is kinda fruitless because he already know that. Rehashing what he knows is not as important than learning what he will be doing in the future. Harassing the younger boys is bullying and not tolerated in my units. I might not draw that into the conversation, but I would dovetail good choices make good leaders. SM: How many of the younger scouts that you hassled are going to be interested in following you as a leader in the troop ? Johnny: None SM: Okay, how many will follow if you protected them from such things? Johnny: (silence but thinking) I just find that my boys retain ownership of learning through questions rather than lectures. Lectures get tuned out, questions need to be answered.

Sadly the lesson not learned by the SM will only continue the problem with future scouts in that unit. As mentioned before, if a boy is experiencing any situation that concerns him, screaming, yelling, (and physical abuse in this case) will only drag the SM down to the level of a 12 year old. Not a good reaction. I had a boy who wanted to be the one to represent the troop in a firestarting competition. His PL selected someone else to do it. He lost it big time in front of the whole camporee. I signaled him over to sit by me and he did. I waited until he calmed himself down. When the competition started in quietly told him to watch all the people starting fires (they weren't allowed to use matches) what they were doing and to be sure to keep an eye on what some were doing right and some were doing wrong. Learn so that next time there's a competition your PL might choose you because you learned something. All he needed was focus from his problem and it worked. He sat there and watched intently. With the inexperience of my boys, I knew that if we didn't come in last place, it would be a miracle. Of course we lost, but my one boy now knows what it's going to take to win. It's a start. I didn't need to discipline the boy, all I needed was for him to focus on something other than his perceived problem. I didn't need anything other than silence and a quiet discussion to do it. By the way, none of that has ever been taught in any of my BSA courses from Fundamentals to WB. It's kinda too bad, the SM in this situation would have benefited from it It's often hard to teach adults to be adults, but that's what I'm trying to do one scout at a time..

Nnnnn,,,, the Explorer program is beginning to wither on the vine. Things don't bode well for it. Okay, let's go co-ed with it. Okay, they did and it was great for a while. Career Posts and General Interest Posts popped up all over the place. (I know, I started 40+ of them in one council working part time.) After time, it began to wither again so BSA split the career Posts off into Learning for Life and the General Interest Posts they re-branded into Venturing High Adventure Crews. We all know the results of how that has withered. Now, one must wonder, why does the BSA want to take the declining program of Venturing, with it most mature level scouts, and do the same thing to the other programs it has? Could it be that "family" is code word for more and more adult directive and leadership seeping into it? It will help with the Cubs because mom and dad won't have to find child care for daughters, just bring them along with the sons. Quick fix on two counts. And eventually when BSA finds out that mom and dad weren't interested in that in the first place, they can move the problem over to Boy Scouts. The adult led model "shows" impressive results and the boys don't have to do anything other than "have fun". Of course the daughters that were in Cubbing will need to be transitioned over into the new Family/Boy Scout program too. We've been boiling the frog for over 40 years. It's just that no one has really been paying attention. One other thought: When Exploring went co-ed, female adults were added to the roster. Cubs has always had female leadershp, no problem. They carried over into the co-ed Venturing and then for some unbeknownst reason they were introduced into the all boy program of Boy Scouts. Does that mean the need for them when Boy Scouts go co-ed, they will ready be available? Who knows what lurks in the minds of those at National?

I have no idea where you get the notion that that I am "hands on" or even focused on leadership selection. My experience comes from large troop of 40+ boys to a troop that grew from 5 to 30 in 3 years and now a new troop sporting 6 boys. I have observed a large troop of adult led elections and even SPL placement by adults down to total hands off boy led (Lord of the Flies) approach and observed how the boys how it all works. Presently I have 6 boys and their selection of PL has occurred twice. The first PL quit because he preferred sports and the second PL has been in that position for well over a year. No one has said anything about the leadership being a problem. In the second troop I was involved with the transition between adult led and boy led produced the quick growth of 5 to 30 and I never was involved in the leadership selection process. Again, there was only incident where two boys wanted to be PL and APL of a new patrol, went out and tried to get new recruits from the community, decided it wasn't any fun and then went back to their old patrol. The main issue for them was while they were off camping with their "new" patrol that didn't happen, all their buddies were hanging out having a great time. The patrols were kept as separate as possible considering the site. I watched this process for almost a year without saying anything and they finally made the decision to return to their own patrol on their own. I am about the least involved adult in any youth leadership selection. I really don't care. But I'll add the caveat that all the boys are mentored in the leadership process, so that eventually all have a chance to be involved. For me leadership is required of all participants, not just a few. Sometimes the PL leads, sometimes the APL leads, sometimes the QM leads, sometimes the GrubMaster leads, sometimes the Chaplain's Aide leads. Just depends on the needs of the patrol at any given time. The only time a duty roster is posted is at summer camp where the camp staff insists on it. Everyone ignores it because it really isn't needed. My job as SM is to offer advice when asked and watch and make sure it doesn't turn into Lord of the Flies which has never happened. I initiated the process in both my last two troops with Green Bar Bill's leadership training process. It's terribly outdated, but it still works just fine for my boys. I had only one boy take NYLT and he came back and let everyone know that the system we were using was better than what he learned there. It was impossible for me to get boys to NYLT after that. Why? Because the boy was one of my best scouts and everyone in the troop respected his leadership. I was kinda disappointed in his comments, but I didn't interfere.

Welcome to the forum! How much training do your boys get beyond the requirements? If no one lays out the expectations, the boys aren't going to just magically come up with what to do on their own. Are you using the Patrol Method and are your PL's trained If all 40 boys are just hanging around socializing, they need to be broken up into patrols and start functioning as patrols. At least the socializing will get cut into smaller groups. You have enough boys for 5 patrols and that would be enough for a PLC. Have the SPL focus on just the PLC until the PL's get functional. I had an SPL for 3 patrols and his sole responsibility was the support and work with the PL's. There was no "troop" just 3 patrols. Sounds like the growth was way to sudden that no one could keep up. If the adults are overwhelmed so will the boys be. Break it up into smaller more manageable pieces.

That's why 30 minutes at each level should be enough time to know whether or not they are going to do something about it. COR: "I'll visit with the committee about it." Me: "They already know about it." COR: "I check with the IH and see what he has to say." Me. "If you don't have a cell phone, you can use mine." COR: "I'll take care of it tonight." Me: "Thank you for your time, I'll talk to him myself." Then move on to the next person on the list and start again. There's not that many names, it shouldn't take long. I'm thinking communication will move along a lot quicker if it gets to the police and/or Child Welfare level.

...Or one can teach the boys the various choices and then give them the permission and authority, sit back, trust them to make the right choices for their particular needs. It's tough as an adult to turn over such ownership to the boys and trust them to make the decision. After all isn't that what an election really is - them making the decision? The only difference if allow is the choice of election, selection, consensus, straws, volunteering, or whatever. The decision is still the boys'. they own it. If they opt for Rock-Paper-Scissors and it causes problems, isn't that really the same as election of a popular scout over a qualified scout? In my case, they don't have to suffer until the next election cycle, they are empowered to fix the problem right away.