Stosh

While both for-profit and non-profit corporations all have board of directors, it is the for-profit corporations that have shareholders for which they answer to and provide profitability accountability. That's pretty much the only difference. Of course the stockholders can over-ride the board of directors at any time during their required annual meeting and corporation officer elections. Notice the customers nor the employees vote, only the shareholders. One normally gets one vote for each share, so if one owns 51% of the shares they can dictate anything they want for the company, they have the majority vote. In a non-profit, the goal is to provide goods and services with a goal of income matching expense. A reserve may be held in a trust account for a specific goal of the corporation, but too much "profit", accrued income, or reserves will draw the attention of the IRS. Non-profits are generally controlled by the board of directors designated by the corporation by-laws, which can vary from one entity to another. A non-profit can have an endowment, but the income off that needs to go to the reason for the endowment, i.e. scholarships, camps, etc. Those endowments are closely restricted as to what they can be spent on. Stosh

Hmmm, 1) BSA provides literature, material goods, training, sells memberships , provides publications, establishes exclusive franchises with it's member organizations and organizes activities. All at a minimal fee. Their annual and capital fund drives go a long way to pay for these programs, making sure the cost to the membership is subsidized. If they aren't selling a program, I'd be hard pressed to define it any other way. 2) The Courtesy Corporation establishes contractual exclusive franchises that in fact do sell Big Macs and shakes to the public. BSA does that as well through it's exclusive franchises (CO's). CO's are not customers of BSA they are franchises. I have never heard of any CO's that ever voted on anything the BSA does. 3) The BSA provides the franchises and no business is expected to follow the dictates of it's franchisees. 4) There are those that think the BSA should not act as though it were a business, but with budgets, programming, selling of goods and services, I find it very difficult to define it's not a business. Next time one pay's their membership fees to the country club, try and think of it as these people are providing golfing facilities altruistically to all the golfers that come around to pay green fees and rent carts after having stopped by the pro shop dropped and dime and had a liquid beverage before heading out to the links should have a say-so in how much the professional people of the organization get paid. Like that is ever going to happen. 5) BSA does not have a board of directors, thus it is a non-profit organization, just like a church, YMCA, Lions Club, VFW, or any other non-profit service organization. How it defines itself and runs it's operations is dependent only of what the membership is willing to pay for, not what it says on how it should run its operation. The military is funded through taxation, whole different ballgame. As a matter of fact, it is not a business entity at all even though it uses business model definitions like budgets, payroll, etc. Churches are funded through donations, not sales of goods and/or services, again, a whole different ballgame. Whereas BSA is a non-profit organization, one must realize there are different types of business models that fall under this definition. When was the last time anyone heard of the privates in the army being able to dictate the amount of money the generals get? And, by the way, the general can resign his commission at any time. Clergy is a grey area, some feel they are called to service, others simply hired and fired, so it's hard pressed to have a specific model. Church organizations use different models, i.e. the Call Model, the Placement Model, the Hiring Model. Also remember, clergy are considered by some government entities as self-employed and are exempt from some other taxations. Do the kids in the Boy & Girls Club get a say-so in how much the local or national directors get? Nope. So the students in a parochial school get a say-so in how much the teachers and staff get paid? Nope So I'm thinking we're talking apples and oranges in some of the business models being suggested here. Next time someone thinks the professional staff of BSA are getting too many perks, let's try and see what we can do about getting them free housing for them and their families over and above the normal employee benefits. Then let's work on getting their taxes reduced or removed, too. Or maybe put them in harms way 24/7/365 for a pittance. Oh, the brass get more than pittance? My mistake. Stosh

Neither the military nor the clergy provide a program sold to the public. It would seem as well that parochial school teachers and administrators are paid less than their public school counterparts. Our military is a volunteer military, not mercenary soldiers. Sometimes people aren't in it for the money. Idealistically maybe BSA should be, but it isn't and no amount of wishing is going to change that. Stosh

Oh, I wouldn't disagree one bit. But we have DE's moving up in the ranks to SE's all the time. Cream rises to the top. The good ones eventually realize this and they're gone. A lot of non-profits run their businesses for altruistic reasons and not good business sense and so for the most part they are the training ground for "real" jobs. Those that can't get better jobs outside of BSA stay on and garner annual salary increases over the years just like anyone else. A 5% raise each year compounds rather quickly over a 20 year career and the SE is only 40 years old, another 25 to go. Yes, the salary can be substantial. Of course they all move up to the big councils that are financially able to support the better salaries and the less financially well off can't afford them anymore and are continually drained of any good talent they might have developed over the years. In the 20+ years I have been with this council, every position has changed multiple times. Couple that with the Peter Principle and there you have the BSA in a nutshell. Stosh

1 hour ago: Neighbor stops by with a box. She said she knew I was a scout leader because she's seen me in my uniform getting in my car to go someplace. Her son used to be a scout and didn't want his "junk" and so she asked if she could give it to me and make sure some scout that couldn't afford a uniform got it. 1) It pays to wear the uniform in public. 2) People still trust the BSA program (she could have given it to Goodwill or Salvation Army, but she made the trip to my house with that as her sole objective. 3) One doesn't have to be a Scout to understand what giving means. 4) I don't know this woman nor her name, I had never seen her before. There's a lot of bad one reads about in the newspaper, but dang, this lady really made my day and it's a shirt I'll never wear, but when some scout wears it, I'll know the full story, and so will the scout that gets it. Stosh

For all you conspirators out there, did any of you check up on the OA? They weren't doing any "rain" dancing out there, were they? I would check that out first before we start blaming the weather for the problem, it had to have been the Scouts. Stosh

Obviously correcting other people's manners is part of the culture she grew up in. I was taught differently. Stosh

I'm going to go out on a limb here on whether or not Scouter99 needs to apologize or not. First of all, his points are valid and should be discussed. It's not what one wants to hear, but any opposing voice in today's culture is now deemed evil and ... well just plain evil. Any counter argument one proposes on any topic can either be addressed as an issue or in this case attack their character. At one point, free speech, whether I agree with it's content or not, needs to be protected our our Bill of Rights is nothing but a joke. Yes, the use of Hitler's Germany always rankles people (Godwin's Rule), but so does Mussolini's Italy, or Stalin's Russia. Try on today's Mideast, 3rd world despots in African countries Lybia, Egypt, Sudan, Ruanda, S. Africa and sub-Asian countries like Cambodia, Laos, etc. China? Does Tibet ring any bells for people? Most people don't know about those places so the easiest reference is of course Hitler's Germany. It's the simplest way to make the reference. One does not need to apologize for Free Speech on an open forum. A Scouting forum would be the last place I should be finding the curtailment of Free Speech. Lets review "Citizenship in the Nation" MB for a few minutes and focus in on the first of ten rights guaranteed by our Constitution. Scouter99 did not attack any person on the forum, just the idea that the government has certain responsibilities to its citizens and denying something for one group but allowing for others is an abuse of power that became the norm in most of the countries mentioned above. A cautionary note that this abuse of power if left unchecked would be a slippery slope that a lot of our veterans fought and died to keep from happening. I'm a firm believer that the US will not fall to the onslaught of outside forces as fast as it will from the onslaught of a tyrannical government. Hitler was in a position to do great things for getting German out of the doldrums of WW I, but he went too far. Who called him on it? No one. Maybe if someone had, the Godwin Rule would never exist. Stosh

The world is the same, it's the people that have changed and it's always cyclical, sometimes changed for the better and sometimes not. Stosh

I grew up in the "ME" generation of which I really didn't appreciate. I, however, tended to be more on the conservative side of things since I was a kid. I studied history, I listened (sometimes) to my elders and I learned a way of life that is far different than the world I have always lived in. Kinda freaky. In spite of the social PC norms, I still hold doors for the ladies. I haven't used the phrase "Ladies First!" since yesterday. Of course, I hold doors for the gentlemen just as often, and I say "Hi" to everyone I meet. It would be interesting to maybe someday record how many times I say please and thank you in a 24 hour period. I know the general manager and the janitor by name as well as 3/4th of the people in the building I work in. I'm busy-body enough to ask people how their vacation went, who their kids are. My company is international and I meet people from all over the world every day as well as work with people from all over the world. And yet I have been called chauvinistic, prejudiced, old-fashioned, etc. throughout the years.... and never by any of the people I do nice things for, always a third-party observer. MYOB is another social norm that has been lost on today's society as well. Not only is chivalry a lost art, it is frowned upon and derided by our culture. What is left to teach our children in it's place. Gimme, gimme, gimme seems to be the message being sent. BSA was founded because of a random act of kindness shown by some Scout from London England who's name was never known. He got his daily good turn in and had he played his cards right could have had the monument in New York with his name on it. Instead he got nothing but the personal satisfaction of doing something nice. What are the odds of that ever happening in today's world? Slim to none, but there are a few of us from the old world that still take self-satisfaction in "A Scout is cheerful, courteous, kind, helpful... that 1/3rd of the Laws right there. Teaching Scout Spirit, Servant Leadership, Good Turns, and other principles of the BSA is an up-hill battle pretty much for the past 40 years. For those history buffs out there, I'm sure you already know, but for the rest of the modern BSA world, the chapter in the first Boy Scout Handbooks on chivalry are really quite interesting. Stosh

I got to thinking about this two-way street for the Golden Rule. I've never thought of it as a two-way street. The Rule is for me and me alone. What I do doesn't have anything to do with "the other guy". Do I follow the Golden Rule only if I know it will be reciprocated? That's not much of a Rule in that case. If one is focused on the Golden Rule from Scripture, one must also take into consideration that those that do good only for friends and family are pretty much coming up short on the Rule's expectation. Nope, the Rule's only for me, what I do isn't dependent on anyone else but me and I'm accountable to only me as well. Stosh

Altruistic? Yep, I do a lot of my Good Turns because it makes me feel good. I enjoy working with kids, does that make me a poor volunteer because I'm getting something out of it? There's a lot of volunteer work I have abandoned over the years because after a while it was no longer fun. I just found other fun things to fill in the spaces. Stosh

A for-profit or not for-profit entity is not defined as to how they pay their employees. What people think it means and what it really is often times are no where near in the long run. It would bode well if people actually discussed the issues rather than the myths of what they think are the issues. Okay, the SE and DE get paid too much. So what. Business entities are in the market to acquire talent. They pay for what they get. One could hire college grads and put them into the SE and DE positions at a lot less than what they have now. Oh, you want experience? Well, there's a cost involved with that, how much are you willing to pay for experience? Oh? successful experience, costs more than just showing up for work. We had a guy like that but someone else snatched him up for $20,000/year more. He had a wife and kids so he couldn't afford to come in at your offer. Business talent is a marketable commodity, but very few take that into consideration when they complain about the costs. If your car breaks down and you go to the cheapest repair shop, do you get the same results as you have had you gone to a more expensive one? And the ones at the bottom of the payroll? No, they don't have to work for the BSA. If their marketable skills are such, the can move on to a bigger and better job at any time. Are we to pay them a better salary because they are married and have kids? Or are they hired to do a job for the business. A person is offered a job at a certain pay. Then immediately they begin to complain about not getting paid enough? Why were they so stupid as to take the job in the first place? I got a solution. Take the council secretary who's getting paid pittance and make them the SE and the SE can go and get a job that pays better anyway. That should take care of everything and you can sit back and let the complaining begin! Stosh

The Good Turn is supposed to be done without any regards to getting something in return. Service projects. however, often get translated back to fulfilling advancement requirements, totals accumulated by the council office, and helping out CO because they are footing the bill on a lot of the unit's activities. There's no "fuzzy line" there for me. I know the difference between community service and service projects. It's kinda like: do you clean up your room, make your bed and help around the house because you are a member of the family or because you're getting paid an allowance. Any time someone does a real "Good Turn" it seems to be recorded and out there in the social media as viral. It just doesn't happen very much. I don't know if it is a cultural thing of the past or whether it was the place/family I grew up in, but I still today find a couple of opportunities each day to do a random act of kindness. Nowadays, however, it's fun just because of the astonishment I get out of people. Hmmm, I wonder if there is a difference between a Real Good Turn and a Paper Good Turn, i.e. I do a good turn because it looks good on paper, or I get it checked off my requirement for advancement. Stosh

And here again, the scouts chose the correct course of action. They did not rally the troops, they simply sought out another option. The town reacted and corrected the situation. Whether it be finding a different location for one's Christmas tree sales or going with a different fundraiser than selling water at a parade, it's always a more honorable choice to go around a barrier than try to barge one's way through. Stosh

One also has to remember that the Godwin Rule/Law has some valid rationale but not when abused. In this case it is over the line a bit, but how much was rhetoric and how much was heartfelt meaning I'm not sure only Scouter99 knows for sure, but it does rankle some with the willy nilly use the argument. However, to describe the Chamberlain Reaction to a modern situation is a valid use of the Rule. I'm glad this discussion came up because it does point out the often neglected response to an ever increasing reach of government into the personal concerns of the citizens and if one is going to be a Citizen in the Community, Nation, and World, one must be able to muster up the courage to call such actions into question, something Chamberlain refused to acknowledge. The members of three different scout units were unjustly put in a position that they felt uncomfortable with by a political entity with an agenda. It's a game they didn't want to play and made a call. It wasn't a Chamberlain call to pacify nor was it a Churchill call either to rally the troops. They simply chose to not be involved in their political gamesmanship. This was not a ditch they wished to die in. I think it was the best thing they could have done considering they really didn't have any real skin in the game. They didn't have to answer or justify national's stance on policy, they just wanted to sell water and help out their community with their celebration. Others in the community knew what was going on and supported the kids. Class act on their part as well. Come election day, the people involved will have an opportunity to fix any problems they feel are necessary to be fixed. Stosh

Implications are meaningless in the world of politics. Running for office implies honesty, commitment, etc. and we all know that ain't ever gonna happen. If the candidate says they are church goers, does that imply that all Jews and Muslims shouldn't vote for him because it endorses Christianity? Saying he's a scout leader and showing a picture of him in that role is pretty much the same thing. Stosh

If one is going to champion free speech for oneself, it probably isn't a good idea to try and squelch it in others. Stosh

As long as the incident occurred at BSA camp, I'm sure they handled their part of the process and notified the SE. If the SE wants the CO to know, he can follow up on that as well. The BSA and CO are chartered without necessitating any involvement by the SM. I'm sure the SE can do his job and tend to this problem without the SM or CC if he/she so chooses. He/she will notify the SM/CC if there are any changes in the boys status with the BSA. I'm thinking that the camp's coverage of the incident will suffice. There was no time the SM did not follow the rules and law. I hope the camp does their followup then. The SM wasn't even there to be able to report anything. First of all MattR makes it clear he was NOT at camp. He was not witness to this incident. When notified he directed the people who were there to follow the camp's policy and see to it the boy was sent home. So... What's MattR supposed to do, report hearsay evidence to everyone he can think of? Nope, told them to follow BSA protocol! Correct answer. Having NOT heard from the SE, the boy was kicked out of Scouts, he began the process of working it through with the parents and the boy. Correct response. I'm thinking MattR did exactly the right thing and didn't go meddling into areas he didn't belong, and his follow up comment about working with the boy was spot on! “Do what you feel in your heart to be right – for you’ll be criticized anyway.†― Eleanor Roosevelt This woman was a class act! Stosh

“Do what you feel in your heart to be right – for you’ll be criticized anyway.†― Eleanor Roosevelt Stosh

We want to sell water at the parade. What's to discuss? There's more here than what's being reported by the biased and pretty much all of the time incorrect media. I may not always take the best course of action, but I trust the scouts more than I trust government entities and media outlets. Stosh

If people follow the Robert's Rules, things have a tendency to run smoother, quicker and easier. Everyone sends their resolutions to the secretary so the group knows what to discuss (New Business). It's discussed and decided on. The secretary collects up the resolutions, combines them and they are the minutes for the next meeting. Anything that got tabled for further discussion and or ran out of time to complete, secretary keeps and carries over to the next meeting (Old Business). Without such orderly protocol, most meetings end up a long, drawn out free-for-all where nothing really gets decided. I suggest to the committee that they use Robert's because after a half hour of wasted time, I leave, and they can mail me the minutes of what they didn't decide later. I don't need to participate in such foolishness. Stosh

If the city council wanted to make a statement about the BSA policy on homosexuals, they should be talking to the scout council, not taking it out on units that are doing them a service. I totally agree 100% with the reaction of the units. If you are in the middle of a fracas that doesn't concern you...MOVE someplace else. They have more important things to be doing than trying to sort out someone else's problems. Stosh

Remembering back a couple of years is no big deal. I remember when being in one's room at home provided no phone coverage because the phone hung on the wall in the kitchen. My buddies never needed to call me on the phone anyway, they could talk to me over the campfire. After 4 years in scouting I knew no one that earned Eagle and 2 that got called out for OA. Never got to first class. Earned one MB, summer camp wasn't a MB mill. It was a poorly run troop, but rank advancement was no big push as it is today. I do remember camping with my buddies more often on non-scouting outings than scout outings and they never were in anyone's backyard. Never knew what a Dutch oven was as a kid. Even if we did, we wouldn't have dragged that heavy stuff into the woods. Never sold popcorn. I even remember riding to a campout in the back of the pickup truck with my patrol buddies and all our gear. I remember having been part of an adventure, not a planned program. A lot of stuff we did back then that is in today's world illegal. Dang, those were the good-old-days! Stosh