Stosh

When I set up my new troop I spent a lot of time with the CO letting them know exactly how it works. It has paid off in the long run. Every position down to the committee level was offered first to any member of the CO. They had right of first refusal. Well, they said they didn't want any of it. Then when it got down to the actual chartering situation, they were repeated reminded that this program is PART of your program, the troop belongs to YOU! I repeated that mantra for a whole year while we were organizing the troop. It thus comes as no surprise that people of the CO refer to us as THEIR scout troop. We got the key, we got a meeting room, we got storage space, we got a spot on the CO calendar of events, we have access to facilities to run fundraisers, etc. It's sad when 5 families get together and form a troop thinking there is going to be some sort of longevity to their program. What happens to that troop with those 5 families get their dear little sons' Eagle and move on? Like a lot of things mentioned on this forum, a lot of these problems are of our own making. If it isn't designed for the long-haul, it probably will just reach the corner, but when the first challenge pops up, they're going to struggle with the traffic crossing the street. It is obvious from Jo_scouting's concern, the CO has come to realize that they don't really own their scout unit. This church CO no longer views their cub pack as part of their ministry, just another "outside" organization wanting to use their church facilities. And from what I can see, that is exactly what both parties allowed it to become. No church members involved with the pack and pack showing no involvement with the CO. They have a scheduled time and that's about it for the unit. Same would hold true if some local organization needed a room for a meeting. They would have the same privileges. So in the end it begs the question: What has the pack done for the CO lately? It's a two-way street. Stosh

How can BSA's survival depend on what most people don't even know about? Stosh

One can't attend a Jamboree without TWO uniforms, but they are not required and neither is Jamboree attendance, Don'tcha just love trying to explain other people's hypocrisy? Stosh

I have always used a military poncho. 3 corners staked and the 4th corner held up with the hiking stick. Stosh

And what makes one think that the rest of us don't have problems we deal with as well as parents? My son made the local boys' choir (one of the top in the nation, tours Europe, etc.) and did so with a perfect audition. He lasted less than a year because the conductor didn't think he needed his ADHD medication. The public school was legally forced to deal with him and the school was also sued for denying him his civil rights and he won. It's not just other boys, sometimes adults are just as bad bullying kids as other kids so no one out there is exempt. My boy has now gone about 7-8 years without communicating with anyone in his family as a result of his and many other factors that turned a nice kid into someone who can't function in the real world. There are no guarantees in this life. The best we can do is get the boys prepared, i.e. Be Prepared, for what life has to throw at them. Stosh

As would any parent. No one who has kids owns the ultimate concern over their children as a parent. I would seriously doubt any parent out there that has a child with the intent of having them grow up to be a serial killer. My formative years were in the 1960's. I think it is reasonable to assume that I have spent my life in a drug cultured society and for the past 50 years it has gotten progressively worse. And kids today know enough that in some states one can walk into a store and purchase pot with no hassle whatsoever. We live in a society of double standards. That's yet another lesson our children should learn as well. Yes and also for moral character development, leadership development, and a few other things that the other programs don't really teach. And for the most part, a lot of parents don't either. The more BSA buckles under to societal pressure to conform, the more it will become what our society is: the real world that one grows up in and basically doesn't understand very well until they get well into adulthood. Good luck in guiding your child through that gauntlet. Stosh

With drugs floating around at school, in churches, at the Boy & Girls Clubs, at the mall, at the YMCA, and just about every other place a kid hangs out, when we see an incident like this in Scouting we get all Chicken Little about it. Somewhere along the way we have latched onto the uber sensitive idea that BSA is exempt from the normal course of life out there and this idealized program is the miracle cure-all for their son's ills. Sorry to have to inform everyone, but Scouting is the means to get the boys ready for a life that has these things all around them and they are going to have to learn to live with it with appropriate choices. If one want their sons to be exempt from any and all of these issues, they will need to institutionalize them, because these things are out there in the real world. Of course institutionalizing them isn't going to solve this problem either. So what's the issue here? A boy got caught selling pot? Or there are drugs out there so prevalent that even at a scouting event your son is going to have to face real life choices every day? How many of the scouts got and smoked some of this boy's merchandize that the SM never found out about? Getting caught is usually only the tip of the iceberg. Now there's a thought that will keep Chicken Little up all night worrying about. Stosh

For advancement I don't have a problem with a boy doing multiple POR work for credit. What you suggest is perfectly okay in my book. But what I would find difficult to accept is Boy A gets the POR patch and responsibility for Troop Guide. He falters, hems and haws, doesn't do his work, but Boy B: JASM steps in to "mentor" him and in the meantime does the TG work because it has to get done. Then after 6 months, Boy A gets credit for his POR. As SM I would have advised my ASM to let the Boy A stumble and struggle a bit to see if he could figure it out on his own. A JASM is a boy so in keeping with Boy Run, JASM can pretty much do what he wants to interfere. I would rather have a boy struggle with a POR for 6 months and get credit than slide on through because someone else did the heavy lifting and wouldn't let him "fail". A SM can pull an ASM back out of the situation, but if the troop is boy run, the JASM can't be told what he can or can't do and if he wishes to start dictating to the SPL, PL's or other troop officers because he outranks them, that's something I'm never going to allow. It's bad enough keeping the adults from doing that. And as far as what you are describing qwazse, I have boys with no POR patches doing that sort of thing all the time. They have been the confident boys that do the work and don't worry about the patch. Stosh

Old Ox: You're not disagreeing with me, just read "THE PETER PRINCIPLE". It explains just what you are saying. And the dialogue concerning labor cost in a business whether it be a non-profit or a for-profit, the quality of that leadership is all over the board. Those that end up with the better half of the talent pool spend big bucks to get it and even bigger bucks to keep it. Now that is a business fact from day one. It has nothing to do with the business situation we are now in. Why did GM crash and Chrysler falter while Ford and all the foreign car companies just keep on plugging away? It the market was truly a business mess, ALL would have had problems, but they didn't. Not all for-profit or non-profit rise and fall at the same time. GSUSA has tasted the Koolaid and is struggling, BSA is still hanging in there in spite of the bad press, but it has nothing to do with how much impact anyone makes on the payroll expense ledger. Like churches BSA income is dependent on donations. Churches cut back on staff and programs all the time when the money doesn't come in. Why would BSA be any different unless they were finding other way to maintain programs by charging more in fees and not relying so much on donations. But everyone cries foul and accuses them of profiteering when they do so. The donations one gives to the BSA SUBSIDIES program for the boys. If the donations don't come in, this ability to subsidize is reduced and the boys need to pay more, it is not an issue of profiteering. The money has to come from somewhere, if not subsidizing donations, then the users of the program will need to pay more or BSA will not be able to cover expenses and simply shut their doors just like business all around the country do every day when they can't pay the bills anymore. BSA is not exempt from that business reality. Stosh

That the boys should be doing? Just because he's another youth in the troop he would still have no business interfering with the POR responsibilities of the other boys working on their advancement. Give him a POR position, but as far as I can tell, JASM is not a POR position of any value other than an honorary position that should keep him far away as possible for any real leadership in the troop. If you wish him to have real leadership, give him a real leadership POR. "can be assigned to do anything you could assign an ASM to do" I spend a lot of time keeping the adults corralled and away from the boys, working on 300' at the present time. I don't need yet another scout doing what I'm keeping my ASM's from doing. POR's are for advancement and a JASM interfering in that process wouldn't work in my troop. Stosh

Unless one wishes just to focus on the intent of the project. Okay, it's a leadership project? Who got led? Did he do the fundraising on his own? Nope, he was sponsored. He made the trip solo? Nope, his dad went along. Where's the leadership? The idea is good, but it shows initiative on his part which is fine, but the project was supposed to demonstrate his leadership ability. He led no one. So when the dust has settled, what leadership was demonstrated? None. To me it was a project promoted by his CO and it pretty much circumvented the whole intent of an Eagle Project. Stosh

We have the means to develop adult leadership for the boys just aging out of Scouts. I had a scout, turn 18, take the basic SM training requirements on through Wood Badge, all before he turned 19. The boys pre-18 should be having fun learning. This boy had GBB training, TLT, NYLT all before he was 18. The adult training was pretty much just review. He never was a JASM. My boys all learned to lead from the back seat. Stosh

For all those environmentally oriented people out there, quit recycling and start reusing. I remember when diapers were washed and reused instead of filling up the landfills with bio-hazard waste. We had dish towels that weren't paper and didn't come on a roll. I remember taking the soda/beer bottles back the store to be washed and reused. I remember the same for milk bottles. It was a long time before I used paper/Styrofoam plates and cups and plastic "silver"ware. It costs far less and puts far less stress on the environment to wash out a bottle and reuse it instead of sorting it out, crushing/melting, and reforming into a new bottle. And for those who don't think re-washing bottles is sanitary, remember the next time you drink out of a can, you have no idea where that can has been. You might think it bad news to lick the bottom of the can, but you don't think twice about slurping off the top. Both top and bottom have been to the same place. Stosh

In our town we had a source of aquifer water that was free. People lined up to get the water which was no different than the aquifer water out of the city tap that had been sanitized and fluoridated. Yes, there's a difference in the chemicals and cleansing process, However, there is no industry standard where those who bottle water get their water from. I'm thinking it is probably safe to say that for inspection purposes, the water has been treated. Basically one is paying for the bottle. This has to be the biggest marketing scam ever pulled off in our country. Stosh

In the 30 years of working with different troops, never encountered one. It's not common around these parts, I've never seen the patch being worn by anyone. Most Eagles still in units are wearing what I would call working POR's, TG, Instructors, PL, DC, etc. Stosh

"I'm from the government and I'm here to help! The check is in the mail." Don't stay up too late waiting. Stosh

The point is: corruption can be found wherever one looks. To assume or even think it can't happen is folly. It happens all the time and no laws are going to rein in the lawless. Stosh

The application was for a scout unit to sell water. What's to discuss unless the due process of the permit procedure requires a background check of the organization to see if they comply with whatever rationale they wish to be promoting at the present time. Had a Baptist church made application would they be subject to the same interrogation? What were the public discussion supposed to be about, selling water at the parade or some other political agenda that had nothing to do with the permit application? It is obvious this wasn't about a vendor permit all along. The unit acted in an appropriate manner. Stosh

Oh, by the way, saving trees has nothing to do with it. Being a good steward means one recycles paper. It's an industry known fact that it's easier to make paper out of paper than it is out of trees. Stosh

One has to remember a secretary writes down in the minutes what he/she feels is important. It may or may not be what others think is important. Roberts makes adjustments for that. Everything to be discussed in a meeting should be written down and read so that everyone discussing it knows exactly what it is that they are to discuss and decide upon. This can lead to some really pointless discussions if not done. The target of what is being decided can through random discussion with no focus, end up voting on something no where near what the original requester had in mind. So in fact that person's concern was totally ignored. The secretary should then identify each person who has the floor and record the gist of their discussion on the subject. Then when the question is called, retain the resolution and it's resulting vote. If one wants transparency in their work, one need follow the "rules" so that no one can argue with the guy who says, "We discussed something like that last night and voted against it." So exactly what was discussed? One is already at level 2 conflict and don't even know it yet. Transparency, integrity, honesty, openness, etc. all lost in the fog. People are so into conflict and accountability these days because they don't have a method of doing civil business in a group. Most of the meetings I attend today are basically free-for-alls, with little or no resolution unless pressed to a vote. Whenever I am asked to chair a meeting, I adhere to Roberts and am considered a real pain in the butt about it. But, when all is said and done, everyone knows exactly what it is that was discussed, who spoke for and who spoke against and what the result of the vote entailed. My job as chair was to make sure the proceedings were civil and that everyone had a chance to speak to the issues without interruption. I have noticed over the years that for "normal" things and when things are not tense, I never get asked to chair a meeting, but once the fur flies, I'm the first they ask to chair/referee. I agree only if I can enforce Roberts and no one has ever said no to that. Stosh

Salvation Army is a religious organization just like the Baptists, Presbyterian, Lutherans and Catholics. It's just they put their money into charity/social ministry instead of buildings and programs. They like to fly under the radar so that most people don't realize they work very closely with government when it comes to helping the poor. They don't want the Church/State issue to get in the way of their ministry. They still follow all the principles and legal requirements of a non-profit organization. There is no legal or business model out there that can define BSA as anything other than a non-profit organization. The only support for a for-profit business is subjective personal opinion. Some of those opinions get rather altruistic/Pollyanna in their emphasis, but they still all remain just personal opinions. All organizations whether they be for-profit or non-profit have to pay their bills to survive. Payroll is one of those expenses and how that gets divided up has no bearing on their for-profit/non-profit status. And for all those that think BSA is a rip-off, consider ANY telephone fundraising solicitation effort: 90%+ of the money goes to the company making the phone calls, not the charity you think gets it. Of course that also includes such organizations as the United Way which fundraises for other non-profits. They have executives they pay as well. Think of it as the BSA taking a dip out of the contribution, but with the United Way, it's a double dip I just cut to the chase and donate directly to the units I like. I can't take a tax deduction for it, but then I don't give to get something out of it either. Stosh

On the one hand I find that our government couldn't be so corrupt or inept to lose vital information, on the other hand I find that our government could be so corrupt or inept to lose vital information. What it boils down to is: did the emails really get lost? The answer lies in whether our our government corrupt or inept. I make allowances for gross ineptitude for our government officials, but this is so extreme, I gotta go with corrupt. I find it strange that Obama takes a page right out of the Nixon handbook, but the media lets him have a pass. Stosh

Government corruption isn't limited to third world tyrants....... Stosh

As with for-profits, non-profits are typically controlled in reality by their officers, who manage information-flow to the board. Boards typically only become active when disaster looms. This activity often follows discussions with personal counsel, who mention fiducuiary duty and potential for personal liability. ??? According to the annual reports to the government, the officers are members of the board of director. If the board is divided as to who gets information and who doesn't, then of course the board is basically non-functioning and there will be problems. Stosh