Stosh

Our culture is no longer connected to the natural environment as those of 50 - 100 years ago. Scouting was an opportunity to enjoy this connection. We no longer have adult leadership capable of even coordinating our youth to make a connection that these adults never made. Whereas nature used to be a part of these peoples' existence, it's just a nice place to visit for us "modern folk". I don't think the old-timers are trying to bring back the "good old days" in a much as trying to maintain the connection with nature that seems to disappear more and more as time moves on. With the loss of our agrarian roots we have become disconnected from nature. Our farmers ride machinery rather than walk in the dirt that produces life, our food comes from stores, highly processed and lacking in nutrition rather than from backyard gardens. Pioneers and native Americans never had stores from which to buy anything, but if our economy were to fail, our people would die sitting in an abundance of food all around. Our world shuts out the natural world with windows, screens, heavily insulated homes. We don't even cut our fuel for food and warm anymore, it just shows up. We don't even need to leave the home to survive. We can work from home, have food delivered and never have to speak to our next door neighbors..... and BSA wants to become more relevant to this Brave New World we find ourselves in. Sorry, I fight every day against it's influence. I may be crazy, but if I lose my can opener, I'm not going to starve. Stosh Stosh

I don't use the position. Never have, never will. I don't think it is a true Position of Responsibility in that assignments given JASM are usually interfering with other real POR's or the position is so watered down the skills of a highly trained boy is basically being wasted. Skilled Eagles are better utilized in actual POR positions but those spots are usually filled by lesser skilled boys needing advancement (to the detriment of the troop program). Stosh

It also depends on how much pressure is put on the boys by the adults and the quality of the camp staff. My boys all signed up for MB's at camp. They all got wood carving, but some took partials on First Aid, Wilderness Survival, Archery. It's going to be a hassle getting them completed back home. My PL gave up on his Wilderness Survival MB to bring another homesick boy back to camp so that he would have a buddy for the night. There were only 4 boys and they were all Webelos cross-overs this spring. This was their first summer camp. Two of them also advanced in rank because of their participation in the Trail to First Class sessions as well. No adults from the troop were involved in any of this process except for me (SM) who signed the blue cards to allow them to take the MB. They got more than what I expected for first year newbies. Archery? First Aid? Wilderness Survival? Yep, some of them earned them completely. Wilderness Survival overnight, Archery final score, were some of the only requirements that held them back. They will need to finish them up with local MB counselors. I tested the boys on their Trail to First Class items they had checked off and I was totally satisfied with the training they got. It also reassured me that these camp staffers were probably doing quite well on the MB side of things as well. Stosh

Kayaking a long stretch of isolated wilderness river where there is nothing but woods on both sides of the water! Campsite? Nice meadow a by the water's edge just big enough to fit a tent and small fire. Maybe a sandbar if it's later in the summer. I always take the Mrs. so I have buddy boats. She's a lot happier if I don't leave her behind. Stosh

I have been working with co-ed groups for 40 years and for some reason, I have never had a problem. The age groups are the equivalent to the Boy Scout/Venturing aged youth. With Boy Scouts doing just fine with just boys, I don't see any reason to change it. If they wish to drop the venturing age down to 11 so that college aged boys can hang out with middle school girls, so be it. Seriously? It's bad enough having female high school freshmen hanging out with sophomores and juniors on the college level. Sorry, not for my daughter. Was Venture Crew Adviser and girls who I care about were discouraged from joining. It was pretty much an all male crew. Over the 10+ years we had a gal join for a year or so, but nothing long term. They were high school aged gals, but I had no college aged males at that time. My philosophy on the whole issue is 1) lay out the rules ahead of time, listing any and all consequences. 2) Make sure they know there are no second chances. 3) Statutory rape will be reported to the authorities immediately. You will get your name added to the child molester list. If both Venturing Crew members are over 18, it's none of my business, so says the law. Then I don't spend any time worrying about what might happen because so far it never has. Stosh

New troop. 7 Webelos cross-over boys. 4 heading out to summer camp for the first time. Each boy paid $50 out-of-pocket. All the rest the 7 boys worked together to fund-raise the efforts ($220/scout). Some worked harder than others. One boy had a summer conflict and couldn't go. Another had a family problem and dropped out at the last minute, and third boy joined too late to get ready. Although all the boys put in differing amounts of effort, they all get treated the same. NO ONE complained, not even their parents that someone got a free ride and did too much slacking off or that their son won't receive any special consideration for having put in effort and couldn't go. And by the way, one boy (the most economically challenged) ended up with the family conflict and couldn't go, still made sure he was on every work roster for fundraising and did his part regardless even after he realized he couldn't go. ISA's negate the patrol-method and teamwork in general. When everything boils down to "what's in it for me" then the BSA needs desperately to reevaluate it's own value system and what it wishes to accomplish with it's program. I'm thinking doing a good turn daily and helping other people at all times really doesn't seem to have maintained it's importance in the program. I'm an Eagle Scout, bought and paid for with just popcorn and Christmas tree money. I even had enough money left over to outfit myself in camping equipment for the next 20 years. I really don't think BSA has done well with this and is discouraging the practice only because the IRS has become suspicious. I surely would be concerned if the IRS had a higher moral/ethical standard than the BSA. Stosh

Isn't having a mess hall kinda like eating out in a restaurant all week long? You don't have to prep or cook the food and you don't have to clean up. Seriously? I don't get that luxury at home, why is it where we are teaching our boys independence and self reliance do we expect them to hike on over to Micky D's 3 times a day. Sounds to me like BSA and it's modern camps have really lost the vision of Scouting. Scout: a military soldier that leaves the encampment of the regular army and goes out beyond the front lines to reconnoiter the enemy. Does this image that BP gave us have anything to do with the modern camps of BSA when the "scouts" have to come back to base 3 times a day so they don't get hungry? It is for this reason alone that I do not encourage my scouts to consider the local council camp. Stosh

Doesn't anyone talk to the boys about this stuff BEFORE they are tempted to do it? Every year, all my boys go through the pamphlet exercise, first year with parents, every year after with the troop leadership. I have served youth for 40+ years beginning in the initial stages of the drug revolution of the 60's all the way up until now. I have never had a problem like this, but my boys know exactly what the scout oath and law is all about and how it is carried out both in and outside of scouting. Maybe it's just the midwest part of the country I live in, I don't know, but I have dealt with youth groups out on the west coast and they were just fine. If one is going to teach adulthood to these kids one has to rely on a lot more than just the BSA rank requirements to get these boys ready for life. Stosh

People have limits on what they will endure. For the most part Cub Scouts is 90% indoor artsy crafty kinda things with a few excursions out there to see important things. Now we add the "outdoors" stuff. Backyard close to flushies, resident camps only if there are flushies, and for the most part people can endure it for their boys. But what happens when those Cub leaders cross over into Boy Scouts. In order to accommodate them, we have a major disconnect. I was well into high school before I ever saw a flushy in a campground. BWCA and Philmont don't have flushies yet either. Been to both places. The Mrs. on the other hand grew up in a big city. Got a degree in forestry and headed off to Alaska to work for the US Forestry Service in the lumber fields. She said she was well into adulthood before she saw her first flushy..... So here's the rub. Yes, it's nice to have adults volunteer for the BSA program. It's great that they have the heart to do it. But if they aren't into adventure FOR THE BOYS, they might want to hold back and let those who can handle it do the heavy lifting in the woods. "Well boys, we're going camping this weekend. Where do you want to go? Johnny? Sorry, Son, they don't have flush toilets. Anyone else? Pete? Sorry, son, no pool, you would have to swim in the river and that's too dangerous. Anyone else? Frankie? Maybe when you get older, we have to have electricity for my cpap machine. Henry? Okay, now there's a place that we can camp at! It's family friendly, has a pool, flush toilets, and electricity. We can drive the RV right up to the site to set up, too. Remember boys, no going to the game room, and no electronics. Remember, we going camping to get away from such things." The really sad part about it is when you wade through the sarcasm, you also see a bit of truth floating in and around it all. Stosh

Sorry Longhaired_Mac, I just couldn't resist the picture stuck in my head. Stosh

Unless one is camping in a tree-farm, I'm thinking a troop of 50 would have problems with hammocks. Stosh

Seriously? 3"-4" PVC 1'-2' long and cat litter. What's the big deal? And there are those on the forum who get angry when I use the term Parlor Scouts. Get angry all one wants, but this is why. When was the last time one had to dig latrines at a camporee? We did it for all of them. Still do when we river camp. Maybe one should do scientific research on this issue. Someone said things began to change in the 1970's and that's about the time that flush toilets and camp grounds started partnering up. The full RV hook-ups, pools, game room, camper stores, ice sales, guest dinners, etc. didn't evolve until later. I know of one or two hold outs and they are State run. Nice campsites, pit toilets and a hand pump for water. It has a canoe landing for those that need water access. One has to swim in the river, no pool. Funny thing about it all, just like any other State run park, it's full all summer long. Mostly older folks. Stosh

There's a big wide line between Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts. Some councils recognize this and have Cub Scout Camps and Boy Scout Camps and they don't use the same space. They are designed for the appropriate program. This I have no problem with. It's when one dumb downs the Boy Scout camp to parlor camping, then I see real problems. Stosh

So then this circles back to where we started. Just exactly what is it that BSA stands for if it is not the ADVENTURE FOR BOYS program? I do believe as some have alluded to as something other than that. It used to be that and there are a lot that say we ought to refocus on our original intent before it goes away forever, or passes the reins over to another program that will do that. We have to have MB's on hiking, cooking, wilderness survival, etc. so the boys have a chance to minimally experience this great unknown out there called nature. They get a nice little patch to let the world know they spent the night out in the scary outdoors and survived. Since the dawn of the electronic age, simply getting youth disconnected from electricity is a big issue. The great outdoors is the last refuge where electricity does not control every aspect of creature comforts. But that world keeps creeping in closer and closer. We have as a society taken on a unsubstantiated fear of the "outdoors". This is why scouting spends a large amount of time training, or should I say retraining the old skills where it was common to be in closer contact with nature. The question I have always stated is: is what we do for ourselves or for the boys we are called on to serve. If we don't have that servant leadership as part of our psyche, how will we ever be able to pass it on to the next generation? I grew up in the ME generation that really didn't worry too much about anything other than themselves. Well, the children we have in our units today are their grandchildren. And the young leaders out there are their children. I was doing volunteer work for the United Way and was called upon to do landscaping work. The crew was digging in an old garden plot and redistributing the dirt to other places to fill in low spots. One of the volunteers asked if there was any food in the garden and everyone (except me) said no. I pointed out potatoes, volunteer tomatoes, lamb's quarter, wood sorrel, purslane, and a number of other edible plants. Then I asked them why they would pay more for wild strawberries, wild blueberries, wild rice and they all said because they taste better and haven't had all the flavor cultivated out of them. Well, purslane has the highest levels of omega-3 fatty acids and ranks up there with a high Vitamin E level as well as compared to other plants. Works great for both salads and stir-fries, and yet it is one of the most tossed away edible plants because people no longer know it's importance. Our kids are taught that if it doesn't come plastic wrapped on a styrofoam tray from the produce department, it isn't edible. This is not macho mountain man testosterone training, it's basic nutrition and expansion of one's knowledge about the world in which we live. Is it possible to backpack with less weight? Sure, if you forage, you don't need to carry expensive freeze dried foods. You can eat healthy all along the trail, and one doesn't need to eat as much because what you do eat is more nutritious than the plastic wrapped freeze dried "stuff". Woe to the parent who has a kid that will only eat pizza, burgers and fries. Those are the kids that are overweight and malnourished all at the same time. As I stated before, there's a lot more adventure out there beyond the length of any extension cords. Where the cord ends, the adventure begins. Stosh

Well, at 64 years of age, I'm figuring I'm never going to make it back to Philmont. I'm not going to make a stink and demand that handicap accessibility be extended to the Tooth of Time. Yo, people, maybe it's time to pack it in. There's not much adventure at the end of an electric cord nor lay there meadow crashing to the hum of someone's cpap machine. So then this all boils down to the least common denominator. Radisson Ranger Camps for everyone! No cost spared, must meet every and all contingencies and in the game room is just around the corner, both figuratively as well as literally. Sorry, but for the sake of the boy's and their potential for adventure, if my situation doesn't allow for it to happen, I'm going to not stand in their way. People make it sound that the vast majority of adults need medical assistance to get through a camping experience. Are we really all that feeble? If so, why are we in scouting? Stosh

I've often thought the same thing, are these camps for the kids to have fun or the adults convenience. My ASM assured me that the camp will take in troop gear to the campsite or haul in the trailer, but the kids need to carry their own gear. I told her I would take care of my stuff and the rest is not my problem and other than her stuff, it shouldn't be hers as well. Stosh

Any camp that is that close to developing communities is way too close to civilization for me. I'm thinking the 300' rule should apply to the residential development area next to the camp as well. One might as well be camping in someone's back yard. Stosh

My boys tend to move away from the modern camps and prefer the rustic camps. Our local council is a modern camp and I haven't camped there for over 5 years now. The boys make the decision as to where to go and they unanimously chose not to go to the council camp. I don't know if it is the adult-led/boy-led issue, but the boys seem to prefer the rustic camps and adults prefer the more modern camps in that it is far less hassle for the adults to have a mess hall than to rely on the boys doing their own thing in the rustic setting. Stosh

Get more ASM's. Get more parents involved. Get the committee organized and working. Get adults. Get adults. Get more adults. This is not the magic solution to your problems. Get THE BOYS going on what it is they want. I have been SM for 5 years in two different units and have NEVER had more than one ASM help me. Of course as the need arose, parents filled in where needed, i.e. rides, backup to ASM or myself, etc. Flooding the unit with adults is not the formula to a good boy-led program. I repeat for emphasis: Get THE BOYS going on what it is they want! If the SM is spending his time looking for adult support, he isn't doing his job. If there is a need for another adult to work with the boys, tell your CC and go back and work with the boys. The committee is there to support the SM and make sure he/she has the resources to support the boys. A second adult to fulfill the 2-deep, and voila, you're done. Now get the boys going on their program. A PL isn' going to burn out taking care of 7 other boys. An SPL isn't going to burn out taking care of 7 other PL's. BUT the SM WILL burn out if he figures he's going to personally handle 40-50 boys all at the same time even if he has 20 ASM's to help him. Geesh, a professionally trained teacher with 20 teaching assistants isn't going to be able to keep a handle on 40-50 boys of this age without burning out, how in the world would anyone expect the average SM to do it? Stosh Stosh

....which points to the elephant in the room.... Of what value is Scoutcraft and Woodcraft if the only place you are going to use it is in the scouting program? BSA needs to market itself a whole lot better than it has if it's going to survive. If large corporations send their executives to rustic retreats for team building, leadership development and a variety of different dynamics necessary for their operations, what do these people see that BSA isn't? Stosh

Try kayaking over canoeing. My canoe has a load capacity of 750# That's a lot of gear. Yet my kayak has 2 small compartments one front one back and a limited amount of space for strap on the deck. It makes one think twice, if not 3 or 4 times before taking anything along. It's interesting that the Great Depression years were brought up. It was well into the 1950's before canvas and leather were replaced by more modern and light-weight materials. A nylon pack on an aluminum frame with padded straps and waist belt, is not the same thing as a wooden back board with a canvas bundle diamond hitched to it with canvas straps and no waist belt. They may have had a few parlor scouts around back then, but then the physical conditioning of these boys was far different than it is for today's youth. Stosh

Oh, I've been where they are thick enough to breathe them in. I usually just toss a light weight shirt over my heat loosely and keep my hands under the covers. Usually they are a problem around dawn and dusk, but unless they are really bad, they quiet down for the night after dark. I have also dropped the 4th corner down over myself and then they don't bother me either. One can also cut down a netting to fit over one's head and shoulders and fasten inside the tent to hang down over you if one wishes to go that route. That netting has hardly any weight, but does add a bit of bulk. Stosh

I don't think it's a matter of looking closer at their programming in as much as I see the political fallout of this whole issue of bad press. I think their efforts to stay relevant to a non-agrarian society has caused a tilt towards the copying of other programs rather than trying to stay with their unique setup. Our culture has spent an enormous amount of time protecting itself from the natural world from where it resides that to venture out into the backyard is a great adventure for most people. Decks, fire pits, park like lawns, all give the illusion of outdoors-ness without having to remove oneself from the comfort of indoor-ness. Even those who venture beyond the property line into a "campground" still must retain the city like environment with all of its amenities while remaining within the confines of a massive Class A motorhome or 5th wheeler with multiple pullouts. Those that canoe and kayak, maybe do the biking all manage to find the comforts of a warm shower and soft bed for the evening. Boy Scout camps now tout Dining Halls, and cabins, and a whole host of opportunities to getaway from it all yet not,... really. They haven't yet adopted the game room mentality, but I'm thinking it hasn't been kicked around somewhere here and there in the past few years. While it may remain relatively old-fashioned with it's modern contrivances, it still holds many back as being no longer a part of real life. Kinda like Disneyland, nice place to visit, but no one really lives there. There are a lot of other "activities" out there that relate better to the modern society in which we live and Scouting just ain't it. Trail Life is pretty much just focused on a single issue, but still falls prey to the same problems of Scouting in general. It's kinda like the multiplicity of Christian Churches. There's one on every corner and they all think they have all the right answers. The interesting thing about the paranoia of the BSA is that they are the only ones on this particular road and don't know it. Others might be thinking about doing a bit of competition here, but fighting over a dead horse isn't going to garner any lasting satisfaction even if they do win. Stosh

If there is another church interested, I would approach them with the possibility of a change. Go through from scratch and make sure they are fully aware of what chartering a unit means. Enlist their assistance from the beginning and maintain communications with the right people. My church CO? Met the secretary once or twice, never met the pastor, I dealt with the Council Chairman. They are the people who make the decisions in the church anyway. We have asked that the unit receive the church newsletter and whenever there is a project that our boys can handle, we show up. Church spring cleaning, some fundraiser, neighborhood party help, food collection drive, etc. are all put on the scout calendar. Granted there's not a lot of jobs for 11 year olds, but the boys pitched in, full uniform and dusted and polished pews all afternoon. None of us in the unit are members of the church either and the boys who are scouts who are member of the church go to other troops where they have established relationships previous to our chartering. In August they are doing a neighborhood block party to encourage new members, we will be there to help out in whatever way we can. We may not be members of that church, but we ARE part of their program and ministry and we're going to be as visible as possible to reinforce that. In the past 12 months, the troop has been in the newletter calendar every week. They have had 4 articles printed that I produced giving updates on our chartering progress and there have been numerous photos taken of the group by the CO and put in the newsletter to promote their scouting program. Come next February, my boys will be doing the ushering on Scout Sunday. It might be a nice collaboration with the scouts that are members of the church and those that are part of the church's program. Stosh

It was mentioned that it was very much adult led at the beginning of organizing the troop. If the numbers have grown and the boy-led isn't really taking over, then yes, one will most assuredly burn out. I have taken over a year to get my troop off the ground, it has 7 boys, 4 of which will be heading out next week for summer camp. We officially became a troop about a month ago. I have not sat at the scout table in a meeting for almost 3 months now. The adults sit around at their own table, jaw jack and figure out the paperwork. We did some fund raising events (of which the SM and ASM were not part of at all) and they were able to get any boy to summer camp with troop provided tents, sleeping bags and backpacks and the out-of-pocket expense for the boys was $50. I did notice that these Webelos crossovers last meeting did a complete review of the equipment, schedule, menu, roster, MB and MB costs for next week's camp. My ASM and I along with the parents sat at the other table and did the behind the scenes "parent" stuff to make sure they sent their boys out the door fairly well prepared. I'm a firm believer that in any volunteer organization, people burn out because they either plan it that way, paint themselves into a corner or don't pay attention along the way or any combination of them. I've been at this working with kids stuff for 40+ years and haven't burned out yet. I've been accused to being lazy and relying on my committee members and my scouts too often to get things done, but never burned out. It's a lot easier to have 10 people doing 10 jobs than 1 person doing 10 jobs. I just let my people know that without help, I'll just let things slide until someone steps up. Knowing that, they always step up and do a great job. Stosh