Stosh

There are a number of instructions for making rocket stoves from 12" cement block to tin cans and 55 gallon drums. I did the #10 can with 2 soup cans. All kinds of plans for a ton of different applications are on the internet. Just look up rocket stove. Stosh

There are a number of instructions for making rocket stoves from 12" cement block to tin cans and 55 gallon drums. I did the #10 can with 2 soup cans. All kinds of plans for a ton of different applications are on the internet. Just look up rocket stove. Stosh

I'm thinking you're crazy. A scout today can use any number of fingers to do the salute,... emphasis on the word fingers being plural. Stosh

It was interesting at this year's summer camp. 4 Webelos crossovers, no older boys and first time at summer camp, wood stove and very little experience. As a boy-led program, they were well prepped that if they ran into difficulty they could always ask for help and training. Well Monday rolls around and lunch is supposed to be grilled cheese, the boys ate cheese sandwiches instead. So, was it an issue of laziness or an issue that none of the boys knew how to start the fire in the wood stove and make the grilled cheese? So why should I worry? They were all fed and life goes on. This example shows how one's perception could infer that these boys were being too lazy to cook their lunch, but I know for a fact that wasn't the case. They didn't know how to start a basic fire. So with all the new SM/ASM's out there that may not have such scoutcraft skills, how are they to help the boys? Dad A, never been in the woods except in a 45' RV with all the amenities of hotel life. But he does have a lawn chair and does sit out in the afternoon in the screen house he sets up first thing on arrival. Dad B, big outdoorsman, hunts, fishes, camps in his pickup popup. Who's going to make it as SM of the troop? Dad A, gets out the book, looks at all the illustrations, reads the directions, puts together a teepee fire lay and with 6-8 matches gets it going. He has coals for cooking in 30 minutes. Not really a glowing example of who I want teaching my kids. But Dad B get his fire going in a mere few seconds and has coals for cooking in half the time. Pile up a bunch of wood, douse it with a half gallon of gasoline, toss in a match and we'll have dinner in a matter of minutes. How can you tell the difference between Dad A and Dad B? Dad A has the eyebrows. In IOLS training how many people actually are expected to start a fire? The training I had showed us the different fire lays, but no one ever expected us to go out and get wood and actually find out how easy/difficult the task really is. How many SM/ASM's can set up a standard camp wall tent, by themselves? How about the dining fly, by themselves? How about knowing the knots to tie for such an effort? Leave no trace emphasis made the Orienteering course really easy. We just followed the path and got out the compass only when there was a fork in the trail. Total waste of time. When woods tools were taught, we were told to pretend there was a guard on the saw because he didn't have one. It didn't stop him from handling it anyway. New SM/ASM's with this kind of learning and no personal experience in the outdoors except what they picked up at family camp in Cubbing, are going to have a difficult time teaching the boys sufficient skill to function in the woods. I'm not looking for another book to read, I want experienced scouters showing me and forcing me to try out these skills so I have a fighting chance of teaching them to my boys correctly. Stosh

How does one know where to switch when they need or want to unless they shop? I might hate tea, but if I don't go and try coffee or Koolaid, how will I ever know? And why should I accept tea to begin with and have to put up with it thinking it's the only game in town? I guess I'm to much of a capitalist that prefers competition to insure a better option rather than accept the state designated bureaucracy solution of one size fits all, take it or leave it. Stosh

With all the talk about MB mills at summer camp, why aren't there extensive training being done for the adults who come to summer camp? One would think that these adults could benefit from 3-5 hours a day training for a week. It could be offered at no charge and there'd be no fees for meals or travel. Trainers? Surely there are a ton of SM/ASM's out there that could put on a 1-2 hour class for the other leaders that show up. When the boys sign up for MB's maybe the adults ought to be signing up to teach 2 classes of their choice and attend a half dozen of the others. So often we hear SM's whining about not having time to do these training sessions. What are they doing at summer camp except sitting around drinking coffee, or getting in the way of the boys? I refuse to go to the adult COPE, Shooting Sports, waterfront equipment, etc. because it might take away an opportunity for some Scout. If I want to kayak at scout camp, I bring my own kayak. The camp I was at this year offered outdoor leadership training, but it was kinda like going to Trail to FC training for Tenderfoot scouts. But what about a class to train SM's on new ideas and age old techniques that have worked well for some of the other at camp. For fun I tried out a new rocket stove I made (at camp, of course), Worked really well burning only grass, leaves and twigs. I can see leaving the Coleman home next year and saving on the price of white gas and propane. It's really kinda sad that the time at camp is wasted. And then I got thinking about Camporees and other times the boys gather... what are the adults doing at that time? Oh, yeah, running the competitions the boys should to be running. Is it time to rethink these missed opportunities? Stosh

Oh, Man, just a salary? you don't get the benefit package????? I'd hold out for some of the really good benefits! 1) Old coffee mug that no one else wants and all the coffee you can buy. 2) Homesick boys that are consistent bedwetters. 3) Totally random surprises you never thought the boys could come up with. 4) A free fun-filled week at a summer camp for boys in lieu of a personal vacation with wife and kids. 5) Phone calls late at night from parents that help you understand exactly how things need to be done for the troop and especially their son. 6) (My favorite) You run the boy's advancement history for his Eagle review and there's a MB missing and instead of getting a blue card from the 17 year, 11 month old boy, you get the "deer-in-the-headlights" look. Oh, the list goes on and on. One doesn't need a big salary with benefits like these! Stosh

Looks like this new system is going to kinda blow a hole in the idea that AOL is the "highest rank" in Cub Scouting. Here you have boys work their way through the entire program from Tiger to Webelos and they get a patch to wear on their Boy Scout uniform and knot to wear on their adult uniform to show the effort. Now we will have boys walk in during the 11th hour and voila, they get the same award. While it is very noble to pay the same day's wage to all workers whether they started at 6:00 am, 9:00 am, noon, or 3 pm, it just doesn't set well with those that showed up at 6:00 am. Walking away from Cubs with a bad taste in their mouths doesn't bode well for the Cub to Boy Scout transition process which is already shaky at best. Stosh

I'm not defending scout shopping, I'm only commenting that a lot of recruiting effort goes into wasted energy. The Webelos DL that takes his boys to a couple of very different troops does a better job of making sure his boys get the best out of the program. I don't like the age old tradition of checking out one troop and then telling the boys to take it or leave it because as we all know during that shaky transition into Boy Scouts, a ton of boys just leave it. One does recognize that a special event for the recruiting process is often contrived and not indicative of what the troop normally is. That too is wasted effort. Feeder Packs is also misleading for the boys and parents. Are they ever given the option of looking at different opportunities or are the buffaloed into going with the traditional troop nearby. I'm thinking more along the lines of having a good program and then one doesn't have to spend a lot of time recruiting and the time they do is better served. Why would a troop 12 miles out of town draw all the kids from town away from the troop in town unless they had a more attractive program? I've seen it done. 40 boys out in the middle of nowhere and 5 boys struggling two blocks from where the boys live. I have boys from all over town and there must be 15 other troops they drive by to get to where my troop is. I also have boys in the troop that started out in one troop, became disillusioned and quit only to come and check out the troop and join. Only the troops that don't focus on a good program seem to suffer in the market of competition. And believe it or not, my program is not the result of any long term viability plan by the adults. We start from the premise of boy-led and then let the boys lead. That's something very unique in our area and we draw kids just because of it. Anarchy? No, we did not turn into the Lord of the Flies overnight. Instead we have a great start to a new troop that has already gotten the attention of a number of different "feeder" packs none of which are ours. We have no feeder pack. We rely solely on providing a good program, spreading the news about it and inviting those that might be interested to come check us out. On the first cross over event when I started, one boy "joined". It wasn't enough to register the troop, but we continued meeting anyway. The next year we heard that one boy might be interested and he crossed over and "joined". We now had two. We went to another pack crossover hoping for another one or two and we got three, we immediately registered. The next boy was referred to us by the council office, the mom was looking for a different troop for her challenged boy. I called, and now we have six. A boy got his buddy to check us out and we are now 7. We got invitations from 2 packs to come and do a Webelos Den meeting.... The boys are gearing up for that. See my post above to see how the boy will be handling that. My 11 year old PL has already contacted the council office for the names of the Webelos DL's and went fishing for an invite. These are the same Lord of the Flies boys that have said we need to gear up for popcorn, wreaths, bratwurst sales, etc. because the new boys will need money for summer camp next year. I seriously don't want the adults getting in there, making up a bunch of stupid rules and discouraging the boys. The PL last week was on family vacation and so the APL was running the show. He announced he didn't know what he was doing, so I suggested some fun training, like the GBB material. I gave him the website and I'm sure the curriculum will be there next Monday. I gave an overview and two of the boys started arguing about who got to be GrubMaster. They decided to have a cookoff next outing and the rest of the patrol will decide. I thought that was a really good way of deciding it. Stosh

After 30 years, I went back this summer and retook the IOLS training. My ASM was ASM when her son was in a troop and now her grandson is in my troop and she went with me on the training to refresh her skills too.. It was basically the minimum of what is needed to get by. I was read to out of the handbook and demonstrated back what the instructor showed me. I wasn't too sure how much more the instructor knew than what was in the book. I felt like I just got a taste of a MB mill where if I didn't fall asleep I got it marked off. Stosh

I teach my boys to teach when they demonstrate to me they know the skill. That way they can at the drop of a hat, teach others. It does not add to the requirement one bit. I just tell the boys, I don't know one thing about what you are going to show me so start from scratch and educate me. If they balk at the comment, I just ask them if they would prefer teaching their mother. Usually they stick with me. They have a prescribed routine that I taught them which somewhat parallels the EDGE method. If they can teach me the square knot, I know they fully understand it. I also make sure that if someone is doing something, i.e. lighting the fire, he always has an "assistant" that doesn't know so that he can teach as he does the work around camp. Our "buddy system" is not BFF's getting together, but one older scout with a younger scout so that the younger one has an opportunity to learn and the older scout has an opportunity to teach. There are no requirements in the troop to teach anyone anything, but through a couple of these techniques, it happens anyway. Stosh

As a personal thingy, I always ask if someone was ever a scout whenever I receive an act of kindness. It is surprising that the majority of them say yes and those that don't quickly tag their response with "no, but I'm a Christian." It's always nice to see all that training they got over the years wasn't wasted. These Cubs got a Primo Lesson on this trip. Well done. Servant Leadership is alive and well. Stosh

If the BSA program touts leadership development wouldn't one think an ongoing emphasis on developing that would be more than standing around hoping that through osmosis, the boy picks it up along the way? I'm thinking that most boys that age aren't going to step up and do anything without knowing how to do it in the first place. Massive Failure in front of their friends is not on their to-do list for the day. Does that mean they are lazy or have we held them back from the promise we made to them when they joined? So what's a chaplain's aide supposed to do? lead grace? have camp devotions? promote religious awards? comfort the homesick at camp? And so where does he get training on any of this? So what's the Scribe supposed to do? Keep records, minutes? Maintain health records on the boys? Monitor advancement? And so where does he get training on any of this? So what's the librarian supposed to do? Keep track of all the obsolete MB pamphlets? ?? ?? Oh, yeah, that's about it, but ... where does he get training on any of this? Quartermaster? Bugler's here... he just played some music who knows what we're supposed to do now? SM turns to the Bugler and says, call the Raven Patrol back to camp.... Huh?? where does he get training on any of this? (I can almost guarantee you that 99% of SM's out there have no idea what to do with a Bugler if they had one other than playing reveille and taps. Before radios, a bugler could move a regiment of 1,000 men around at the command of the colonel, and we use them ornamentation to a troop ceremony. I find that 90% of what my boys balk at have their basis in ignorance, not laziness, yet the threads seem to never think that is an option and that the boys are basically lazy. "You've been around long enough, you should have known what to do!" Well, Mr. SM, he doesn't because no one taught/told him. It's not his fault, it's the SM's! Maybe it's the SM's that are the lazy ones. Stosh

Big premiere troops aren't always the epitome of Scouting. I have seen both big and small boy-led, patrol-method, and I have seen big and small adult-led, troop-method programs. In many respects they all have something to offer to a variety of different scouts. Unfortunately Cub Packs are not homogenized and each den is a mix of all kinds of boys. Thus tossing them into a one size fits all troops is not something that will always work out for all of the boys. Some boys really don't want to learn a lot about leadership and are willing to simply go with the flow and enjoy what's being offered, and a big adult-led program is right up his alley. Others want more opportunity, closer comradeship, and intimacy of a small group with more hands on with what's happening. Then there's the whole thing about boy-led which tends to appear to be far less organized than a spit and polish run adult-led program. If all one is interested in is appearance, this is an easy choice. I have seen people select for just that reason. In a small town it's kinda nice to have the mom and pop grocery store where you don't always have much selection, but it's convenient and friendly. Then there's the Walmart down the street where if the greeter isn't sitting on his/her stool you can actually go in get what you want (again not much selection, but a bit more) and go through the self-serve check out and never have to say anything to anyone! Then there's the unique grocery stores that have local organic produce and stuff you never heard of on the store shelves. An adventure in shopping. Then there's the regional mega store that if they don't have it, it doesn't exist. Not everyone will want to shop in all of these stores and will eventually settle in with just one. But they have had to shop around to find what works best for them. Obviously no one ever starves, but the options to each individual is important. Why would a parent just automatically send his boy to a certain troop without first shopping around for the best fit for their kid? This isn't Henry Ford's world anymore. And from the boy's perspective?... What do I have to offer a mega troop that has everything nailed down to perfection and it doesn't make a bit of difference to them whether I join or not? And what do I have to offer a small struggling troop where I can roll up my sleeves and offer up something to make things better because they need me? Stosh

Boy-led, patrol-method does not mean adult-abandoned. The adults are there to assist the boys accomplish their chosen goals. When they need help, they'll ask for it. Until then, pour a cup of coffee, find a nice comfortable chair and wait for the request. Even the SPL's need to learn this lesson if they are ever going to master servant leadership. SM Bob is correct. The only time an adult can assist is to pick them up and dust them off and then shove them back into the game. An adult can make suggestions as long as they are fully aware that the boys can totally blow them off if they so choose. Once adults learn to play their role in the game, they can actually be quite trusted and respected among the boys. That in and of itself is a major accomplishment in this day and age. Stosh

I'm with scoutergipper, a productive meeting is more important than gimmicks. Okay... I show up for a meeting. I put in a couple of comments, other people jump in and those are the ones that will forever do everything. All I have to do is wait for the results of their efforts and I don't have to go to a meeting to do that. Then after a few months I get a phone call, they desparately need something, it's no big deal, I can do that.... and I don't have to go to a meeting to do that. What I've been trained to do is just be patient, someone else will do the work, tell me what I need to know and I just show up with my boys. Piece of cake and I don't have to do anything to help get things ready. If the powers that are get to whining too much, I'll toss them a crumb or two just so they quit bothering me. If you don't believe me look at Mashmaster's comments. Stosh

Yep, after 13 years of beating my head against the wall, I moved on. Best decision I ever made. Groups have a difficult time making a change on purpose. Of course they change as new people come and the older ones move on, but when someone says, "That's the way we've always done it," it means that's the way it's been done since I got here last summer. Very few people know what went on in a unit 10 years ago. The problem is that people have an idea of what they think a unit is supposed to be. That varies with every person. If their boy seems to be enjoying the program they will back off on their idealism. Of course they all think they own the program because their boy paid money to get benefit from it. If they help out they also feel they have more votes on an issue than the person who just drops off their kid for the meetings. The biggest hurdle that one has to understand is this thing called "The Unit" really doesn't exit. It has a personality, but one can't sit down and have a discussion over a cup of coffee with it. It appears differently to different people. One person will adamantly say it's one thing and the next person will adamantly say it's just the opposite. "Getting a handle" on it is impossible. Of course no one thinks the existing group is what it SHOULD be. To some it may mean giving it a tweak here or there and the next person wants to do a complete overhaul. If you were to sit everyone associated with the unit down and have them come up with what the vision of the unit should be, it would take them enough time to sort that out that by the time they decided, the world would have moved on and they'd have to start all over again from scratch. The one game in town they are not playing is: "What do the boys want out of the program?" All the adults of course know what's best for their kids and being on the winning team, playing the coolest instrument in band, getting confirmed at church, and a variety of other things like getting Eagle and such are part of their focus for their kid. So what about the other kids? They're just there so their son can have fun in a group. Ever listen to the tone of most of the threads on this forum? Mostly it's what adults think is best for the kids and occasionally an older scout or just turned Eagle scout will make a comment, but for the most part it's adults. Here you have the Cool Patrol and the Dork Patrol. Ever consider the off the wall idea that maybe it would be beneficial to actually sit down with the boys and LISTEN to what they have to say? After all, theoretically it's supposed to be THEIR program. Stosh

One of the things adults who lead their troops fail to understand is the power of what they don't do. Okay, the troop is going on an outing. They made the plans and Little Johnny Grubmaster screwed up and didn't do the shopping. The adults panic, run around do all the shopping, collect things up and jump in the car and Little Johnny Grubmaster has once again gotten out of doing his job, suffered no consequences and learned that if he screws around enough some adult will bail him out. No one wanted Little Johnny Grubmaster to fail. Well he did. But you don't want the rest of the troop to suffer... why not? Do you think Little Johnny Grubmaster would pay attention and never do it again if everyone in the troop was on his case? Oh, my, what a blow to his self-esteem! The parents are going to have to pay out for years of therapy now and it's all the scout leader's fault. Of course Little Henry Quartermaster forgot to pack the Dutch ovens... Not a problem this time, we were only going an hour out and after dropping the boys off an ASM went back and got them. Why? Little Henry Quartermaster learned that there are no consequences for screwing up the job. So the boys cooked out of their mess kits and they had to pass them around because half the boys brought paper plates and plastic tableware. It was a cooking fiasco and the boys didn't get their cobbler. So what, will Little Henry Quartermaster remember next time? I'm thinking... yes. And the list goes on and on and the litany of woes from the adults wails on ad nausium. Oh woe is me, our boys don't do their job and the screw up over and over again and they are just plain lazy and maybe even rebellious! Yo! Dr. Adult Frankenstein! You created this monster! You live with it! If you're going to teach these boys to be young men, then you had better stop babysitting them and start teaching them. It's not tough love, it's common sense! When my boys screw up, my standard answer is "Bummer" and then follow it up with looking them straight the eyes and say nothing more. When Little Johnny Grubmaster comes and asks what he's supposed to do now that he's screwed up, I say "Bummer". Stare him in the eyes and when he asks what he should do, the answer is, "I don't know, I've never not shopped for my patrol when I was supposed to." To Little Henry Quartermaster, I say, "Bummer". Stare him in the eyes and when he asks what he should do, the answer is, "I don't know, I've never let my patrol down like this, but whatever you do, be sure to let the boys know as soon as possible." Using the adult bailout method, the boys learn to relax, don't worry, nothing bad will ever happen on any outing, some adult will always make it work out. Using the scouting is here to help you grow method, the boys learn there is no safety net and if you don't want your buddies ticked off at you for the whole weekend, you had better do your job and do it right the first time. It's not my problem when they screw up. It's only my problem when they go home, whine to mom and dad about how the SM didn't bail him out when he needed bailing and I get the phone calls asking why I'm not doing my job and I have to listen to the tirade and then explain to them their precious little boy screwed up and let his buddies down, but I'm hoping he can grow from this and avoid the same mistake in the future. Parents who don't want their boy to grow up will pull them from the program and those that do want their boy to grow up will go back to their scout and get the whole story.... People learn a lot more about life from their failures than from their successes. Stosh

In the tag line of EagleScout2010's post he commented about the leaders being lazy when they don't step up to the job. I also hear a ton of comments about the boys not doing their jobs and a ton of such comments about boys not caring once they get selected and then there's those that don't really fulfill their POR's. I got to thinking.... (dangerous on my part).... but is it laziness or ignorance? How much training is done on a specific POR or leadership skill with the boys individually. NYLT does well on management skills, but they tend to be woefully inadequate for real leadership. Does the QM need to know more than just what's in the equipment inventory? Does the Scribe actually take PLC minutes? Does he even know how? Does the SPL come with a meeting agenda written out or does he just wing it? Do we train or do we sit around and wait for them to figure it out as best they can on their own? I for one would never volunteer to do a job I knew nothing about. Why is it we expect our boys to? Stosh

No, you did not mislead. I totally understand the dynamics of what you are defining. So, I stick with what I said. Dork Patrol - random scouts of left overs that no one wants. Fine, just make sure they know they are allowed all the privileges of having their own patrol and they can run it any way they want. Just keep the SM in the loop so if parents have questions he has answers for them. They select their own dorky leader and run their Dork Patrol any way they find is fun and in their best interest as a group. If the Cool Patrol boys didn't want them, I'm sure the message was clear enough that now the Dork Patrol members don't want anything to do with the Cool Patrol boys either. Not a problem it'll help with the 300' separation between patrols. Problem boys? Yep, those that are high energy and bored with the standard run program that if left to their creative juices will surprise you and everyone else. Patrol Leader? - Being the sharpest tool in the tool box isn't the #1 qualification for being a good leader. All he has to do is care and if he cares enough to request leadership, he's definitely ready and qualified to do the servant leadership for the group. The Dork Patrol just needs a bit of focus and the fighting and bickering will naturally subside. The adult concerns about the group speak loudly of a distrust of the group in general. Well, you have no idea how these boys function together until you give them a try. Bit the bullet and set them free. Of course I didn't say abandon them, just set them free and keep an eye on them. This may be the first time in their lives they have had this opportunity and don't expect miracles right out of the box. What other leaders and you think about certain boys is not the issue. The issue is what do the boys think about themselves as a group. I find that a lot of boys that act up are basically looking for attention, well, now they have it and they have to show the adults they can really do it. Follow through by the PL? If he suggests something it is not up to him to follow through! It's up to the whole group! Until he learns to share ownership in the ideas, they will only be his ideas and not the groups. Once he learns how to share ownership of these ideas, the follow through will come easily. Health and safety? Are the boys armed? Can they find weapons in the woods? Probably. Keep an eye on them. But as they begin to see that this little boat they are in is dependent on them all working together to get somewhere, they'll start rowing in the same direction. With the Cool Patrol, you're going to have the most problems. It's a grossly large group of boys who have no vision, no leader and no plan on doing anything about it except complain that the adults are not spoon feeding them, wiping their noses and tucking them into bed. Cool people feel privileged because they are so wonderful. Well, wonderful doesn't cut it forever. They're going to have to start doing some heavy lifting in life and the sooner they start, the better. The Dorks have had to struggle more in life and they will do better in the long run than the Cool boys. The Dorks will see this as a great opportunity and the Cool boys will see it as an opportunity to whine about the adults who aren't taking care of them because they have shot themselves in the foot by having a group that no leader can handle all at the same time and they all know that, so why would any of them step up and take the PL position? Just sit around until some adult does it for them. My suggestion to you as long as you're the ASM... Ask the SM if you can be the advisor for the Dork Patrol. He can then worry about the big circus and you can work with the other boys putting together a good boy-led, patrol-method patrol. When I was an ASM I had a similar situation with the troop and SM. My left-over patrol boys took off and did great and the SM continued to struggle with the circus. Then when it came to the summer camp, the SM took the left-over boys out on the high adventure stuff and left me with the circus. That was my cue to leave the troop. It convinced me the SM knew it worked, he just didn't want to work it through for the whole troop. Since I left, even though he was District Award of Merit and Silver Beaver with 20+ years as SM experience with a high adventure adult led troop, they finally asked him to leave. Stosh Oh, by the way, I've started a new troop and I have only 7 boys, which means they too are random and I can't cherry pick to get a patrol I like. I just go with what I got! Stosh

Look at Kudu's website http://www.inquiry.net for the GBB materials and a ton of other suggestions for a boy-led, patrol-method troop. As far as the patrol breakdown simply state that 6-8 boys per patrol and their first lesson in leadership is to figure out how that is going to work for the troop. If they can't solve problems, they can't be leaders. Constantly turn the tables back on them so the ball is always in their court. Otherwise you become the target. 6 and 12? They have a problem. The door doesn't come open until they have resolved it. Dork kids in one patrol? Great, now they don't have to put up with the "cool" kids. They will progress very nicely without the hassle of the more arrogant boys. As a matter of fact, you may just find out that this patrol will be the most scout-like in that they want to learn and improve and now they don't have the other boys getting in their way. Have them pick a PL and they are on their way to a great adventure. Remember the boys from the other patrols have no say so in how the Dork Patrol is run. Seriously, they will be your best scouts. The other patrol. Let them be 12+ for a while. Have them pick a PL and let them be. Let them figure out why 6-8 is better than 12+. By some inane BSA rule it says the SPL has to be elected by the troop. This is never a good idea. Just don't have one, and that's why the SM can "assign" as a special project the Eagle to be the "Instructor of PL's". Now you have your senior scout in a position to lead. He won't be "needed" right away for the 12+ patrol, but the Dork Patrol will gladly accept any and all assistance he can provide to help them get their feet on the ground. For a while the "SPL" will deal with helping them gain their independence. And most importantly of all they won't have any of the "cool" boys getting in their way! What a great feeling for these boys knowing they won't be bullied or interfered with. Eventually the other boy's group will become unwieldy and struggle. The SM and "SPL" WILL let them fail. It's their decision and their problem. Let them figure out why they have problems and who's really to blame for them. You advised against it and therefore you can't be blamed for the problems it creates. The Cool Patrol THINKS they have all the answers. Allow them the opportunity to realize they don't. Then give them the authority and permission to make the corrections. My mantra in my troop has always been. "Bummer, you really do have a problem, I"m glad it's not my problem." If they solicit advice, feel free to offer it up, but that's as far as you go. It's up to them to come up with a solution to THEIR problem. "They have good ideas, but don't follow-through." Well, now's the time to pay the piper. No decision IS a decision! Stosh

Sorry, but the chorus of adult-led runs through your posting. This is a good thing in that it shows that the adults can fail just as easily as the youth. Now that we have that established, lets move on to more important issues. 1) PL's run the show. Toss the boys into a room, have them figure out who's in the three patrols of 6-8 boys and come out when they have a "leader". 2) Hold back your Eagle from the group. 3) Once this is done, have your Eagle be the Instructor for the PL's and have him available to teach whenever the PL's ask for help. If they never ask, the Instructor walks around, finds something the PL's are doing right and says, "Nice job, you didn't need my help this time, but if you do, be sure to let me know. 4) Eagle prepares the PL training sessions on leadership, GBB training, TLT training, or other training that the PL's might enjoy and be able to be more proficient in their patrols. If one ends up with 3 patrols, there are 3 senior leaders in the troop. The SM and Instructor of PL's (SPL ) simply exist to help them when asked or to be there to pick up the pieces when things go haywire. Each patrol works independently of the other two patrols. If this arrangement runs into a snag, the Instructor of PL's convenes an ad hoc PLC to iron out any problems, all solutions to consider coming from the PL's, none dictated by the Instructor of PL's or SM. If the Instructor of PL's and/or SM want to make a suggestion they may do so, but it is in NO WAY BINDING on the decision of the PL's. They might offer up opportunities for the PL to share with his boys, but they are in NO WAY BINDING on the decision of the PL's. If done right, your PL's will come to trust in the advice and help of the SPL and will in turn FOLLOW some of his suggestions as something good for their patrols. If the SPL ever dictates anything, that delicate trust being developed will quickly go back to square one. Once they learn to follow the help of their SPL they in turn become helpful (and effective) to their patrols and the patrol members will in turn begin to trust their PL's as well. As one can easily see, this helping rather than directing is a powerful leadership skill to develop. The SPL with no real "authority" leading from the helping position will develop true leadership rather than just task management that seems to be what the boys in the troop are not wanting to get involved with in the first place. This is why at the present state of affairs, no one want to step up and be an SPL or PL. They have little or no management skills, but if they play their cards right, one can turn every patrol member into a helping leader, which is just another way of saying Team Work. Stosh

My approach is a bit different. Whereas the Webelos book says for the Webelos boys to go and visit, I have my PL's take charge and get themselves and their patrol invited to a Webelos den meeting. They run the meeting doing something really nice like rope making, or knots, or both or something they know the Webelos boys would like. While there, they keep the conversation going about how things are done in the troop and as the evening wraps up, they hit them with the sales pitch of attending a scout meeting and outing. Ask them what they might like to do during the meeting and outing. When they say, "I dunno" it opens up the door for the boy-led discussion where when you join up, "I dunno" doesn't fly very well and everyone's idea of a great time is always considered for a patrol activity. Then they discuss menus for the campout, what they like to eat what they don't who wants to help cook and get involved, who knows something about fire starting so they can help get the campfire going, maybe have them help with other camp chores, one-on-one with different scouts so they get exposed to a few new friends, etc. etc. etc. My boys introduce themselves, "Hi, I'm John Smith and I'm going to be going to get water for tonight"s supper." Points to a boy with his hands in his pockets, and says, "How about you, I don't know your name yet. C'm on, it'll be fun." If the scouts don't know the Webelos boys BEFORE they come to "visit" then one is already behind the 8-Ball. Seriously, one is always in competition with other troops for their boys. There is no such thing as "moving into someone else's territory to recruit boys. If your program is better than theirs, the Webelos boys should have the opportunity to know that. Stosh