Stosh

Like WB and IOLS where the patrol-method is taught, not many go back and actually use it as it is intended. Same and probably even more so, are the SPL's functions. How do I have have an SPL? Okay, at summer camp, my PL went to the SPL functions. That was painless and being the only PL of the troop, it worked out just fine just like you said. Who directs my PL's? NO ONE, they direct their patrols and if they need help (NOT DIRECTIVES) they have resources to call upon, the SPL and SM being some of them, maybe if they need equipment for their patrol they might call on the troop's QM or maybe if they are a new patrol they might ask advice from the TG. But no one directs them with any mandates. They are all autonomous units within the troop and the PL's run their program for their patrol. Who works out with the patrol leaders who cleans which area? They are hugely separated from each other, 50-100 yards apart, and they clean up their own areas where their patrols reside. No one tells them to do this, it is assumed as part of the PL's responsibility and training. Who assigns service and program to the patrols? The PL's work with their patrols to come up with their own service and program projects and relay that information to the adults or troop leaders if they need support in what they have decided, i.e. rides, equipment, etc. I'm assuming it's not an adult. You can be guaranteed of that! Unlike most troops where the SPL is taught to run the whole show, my SPL's have been merely figure head, fill in as needed by the activity (summer camp SPL). He is, however, the senior most PL and the #1 resource that the active PL's can turn to for support and help when they run up against a problem they are struggling with. My SPL's are "selected" by consensus of PL's in that they identify which person in the troop they feel comfortable with seeking out advice and support. If I have 2 patrols, either of the PL's can be "SPL" in that if one is having difficulties, he can turn to the other and 2 weeks down the road, those roles might be reversed. A PLC of two members is pretty lame. They can hold PLC meetings over the phone if necessary. Usually neither of my PL's really want to be SPL in that they prefer the real work of being a PL. This is why I don't like an "official" SPL because they basically are like the fire department. They haven't got much to do until something happens and he's called up by a PL to assist in solving the problem. I see too many tyrant SPL's out there dictating and telling everyone what to do and basically undermines the authority of the PL's to the point where they become useless and the patrol-method quickly collapses into the troop-method with SPL trying to run the whole show and 99% of the time doing a really poor job. Once that happens, the adults need to step in and keep things on an even keel and now you have adult-led, troop-method troops. It's the natural consequences of a SM top down structure instead of a supported PL program. I'm not saying the SPL is a totally useless position, but one needs enough patrols to warrant the need for a full-time SPL. In a larger troop of 4-5+ patrols, I can see a highly trained, supportive scout with extensive PL experience stepping up and HELPING the other PL's with running their patrols. The boy they can turn to with guidance and wisdom to really help and not take over and run the show, but respect the position of the PL and never undermine it by doing their work, especially in front of their patrol members which I see going on in other troops all the time. And by the way, if the SPL is doing that, the SM probably is as well by dictating to the SPL what he's supposed to dictate to the PL's. THAT IS NOT BOY-LED, it is SM-LED! Stosh Oh, by the way, the JASM is just another cog to get fouled up with older boys interfering with the patrol-method. If an Eagle Scout is the best PL of the troop he should be the SPL not a JASM. Oh, but that takes away a POR position for advancement. So what. I want my best scout in the important positions to help out. If a good PL wants to stay PL for all 7 years of his scouting experience, he can do so in my troop. However, if he's really good, he's training a whole series of a APL's to take over other patrols as needed. If some scout just needs a POR for advancement, he can be one of the useless positions like historian, webmaster or librarian or he can journal his leadership for 6 months and get a POR through SM project option. The more resourceful and helpful a boy becomes is the ultimate goal.

This is exactly why I don't use an SPL In the structure described here, there is no room for any PL's and the ground work for a non-patrol-method troop is reinforced. If the other scouts know to look to the SPL for leadership and coordination, what's the sense in even having PL's and patrols? Running the troop? I don't think so, I'd rather have a meddling ASM in that role than a semi-experienced boy fouling things up. So for the rest of the year after the SPL has "run" the show at summer camp, what's their role for the rest of the year? Sorry, but too often the respect necessary for PL's to effectively manage a patrol-method troop is quickly stripped away with meddling SPL's. The old training material made it very clear that if respect and trust is going to develop within a patrol, outside influences need to stay out of the picture, i.e. SPL, ASM's and SM included. Even the simple things like making sure the final patrol lines are cleaning before we leave summer camp is the PL's responsibility, or in this case, just another scout with no real job needing to be done, the SPL has it covered, the PL just wears a patch and collects rank advancement credit. He's the #1 follower in the patrol, never the leader. Stosh

Sometimes the organizational structure can give clues to what is necessary to be done: Blue-Gold Banquet 2015 - FEBRUARY 12, 2015 Supervisor/Chairman: _____________________________________ Program: ____________________________________________ $200 budgeted Table Decorations: ____________________________________________ $50 budgeted Helper 1: ________________________________________________ Helper 2:_________________________________________________ Awards: ______________________________________________________ Actual cost of awards will be covered by committee Catering: _____________________________________________________ $500 budgeted Or Pot Luck Organizer:__________________________________________ Setup : _______________________________________________________ Clean up: _____________________________________________________ AOL Ceremony:_________________________________________________ Arrows purchased at Pack expense $25 per arrow Master of Ceremony: _____________________________________________ Publicity: _______________________________________________________ $20 budgeted Event will be held at 3:00 - 6 pm in theXYZ Church basement located at 123 Main Street One meeting at the beginning of the year, at the end of which all the sheets of all the activities are collected up, collated copies made and sent to every family in the Pack. Now, everyone knows what's going on who's responsible for what and when, what their duties are and if there are any monetary limitations. Could also include email and phone # on the form to make contacts easier. A friendly followup a month before the event as a gentle reminder is really all that is necessary. Everyone who signs up for something should know how to mark their personal calendars and make appropriate arrangements. If they have questions, they simply contact the Supervisor/Chairman for further assistance. From day one, no need for micro-managing, followup, hovering, haraguing, no need to continually make calls to see if someone will do it in the first place. No one burns out by having to "do it all". People can sign up for jobs they might actually like rather than get guilted into doing something because the feel obligated. AND...AND....AND no one is going to call you up and bug you throughout the year trying to get you do do more than you want to!!!! And the really nice thing about it all. Everyone in the PACK knows who's going to do what, when and where. Stosh

Parkman: I have seen the pattern broken especially in other programs. Scout groups tend to not have the nerve to do what it takes. Those that do have a substantially more than half the members quite active. Of course planning meetings and other micro-managing waste of time meetings are pretty much discarded. How's having everything done before the year starts and no more meetings until next year sound? Works for me.... Stosh

Who's doing the asking? Other adults or the boys? Patrol A wants to go on a hike. PL asks patrol members to ask their parents for a ride, need two drivers. PL notifies SM they need 2-deep, will the two drivers work? Once the call has gone out, what else is there to do? If the adults drop the ball, the activity is cancelled. Once this happens a couple of times, the problem usually resolves itself. Other than that, an adult committee to assist the SM in this process is all that is necessary. As a backup support group, maybe one ASM per patrol. 3 patrols, 1 SM and 3 ASM's That should be able to handle two-deep without a whole lot of hassle and could use parent drivers to support if necessary. I for one as a parent would really find it annoying to repeatedly be asked by parents when the boys could do the job very well and probably more effectively and they would be asking only if they really needed it. Stosh

The camp we attended was 1 1/2 hours from our town and is out-of-council for us. On the other hand the council troops for that camp have a 4-5 hour drive. We left on Friday after campfire, no problem, the council troops left Saturday am. Definitely a logistics issue. I would not want to drive 4-5 hours after Friday campfire, but an hour and a half is no big deal. Stosh

What are the parents doing to help in a 90 boy troop? Stosh

I'm a bit with qwazse on this. I would not promote a trail to Eagle to a Webelos boy. I'm more interested in the boy enjoying the journey rather than spending a lot of time worrying about the destination. If I was running an Eagle Mill type of troop I might consider it. If a boy is two-3 years into the program and hasn't gotten beyond TF, I might get him the book. Stosh

Parental involvement for me usually is limited to giving kids rides to activities, filling out the roster on the committee and working on fund raisers for the financial benefit of THEIR children. 1) Rides - no parents, no rides, no activities. The boys usually get their parents to help out... 2) Committee - fully filled out on paper... somewhat functional. 3) Fundraisers - They seem to be pretty involved with having other people pay for their kid's fun. They always have the option to pay for their kids on their own. Other than the committee members we have 1 registered SM and 1 registered ASM. Don't see any reason to change that at this point. My previous troop only had the SM/ASM team as well. Stosh

The only excuse I have to come up with is why she can't go, too. She even checks each time to "make sure I have two-deep", just in case I don't, then she gets to go! I have also been warned that if the activity involves rivers, lakes or even creeks, she will need to go or I can't go either. Stosh

Every trainable program that has a sense of importance all have continuing education requirements that must be met annually. So even if someone gets "certified" they need continuing education to keep it. It is mandatory in the medical field, some business fields, education, etc. Maybe when BSA gets serious about their training they will take this into consideration. In this ever changing world, if one stands still long enough they will in fact fall behind. One has to continue moving forward just to keep up. Stosh

I've been camping since I was four years old. I've been hunting since I was 10 years old, owned my first gun at age 12. I've been hiking all my life, I've been outdoors and prefer to be outdoors as a major part of my life. When I became an ASM I tool SM Fundamentals. It was pretty painless. Kinda interesting, but kinda not necessary for me at least. I taught SM Fundamentals. Taught Webelos outdoors overnight for many years. WB was pretty much an OK, kinda thingy. Yet this past month I went through IOLS. Still didn't hurt one bit. Haven't been camping since last weekend and YES I did use some of those IOLS skills even though it wasn't a BSA activity. Hiked 10 miles on a bad knee and identified well over 40 different wild flowers along the way. Again, it wasn't a BSA activity but again I used IOLS skills. I re-took IOLS at summer camp this year, Not a problem didn't feel one twinge of pain. Kinda good to review and to see what BSA is teaching these days in the program. Eagle scout? Nope, earned 1 MB and never got to First Class after 4 years with scouting as a youth. The Eagle scout rank tells the world nothing about one's ability to master a skill or teach other youth about the skills necessary for outdoor activities. Eagle means one showed a scout leader that at least once one was able to do the skill. I does not mean one retained it, nor that one could teach it to someone else. Anyone who thinks they "know it all" and don't need the basic training to work with youth would draw a major level of concern from me and I would seriously think twice before taking them on as an ASM in my troop. I would prefer an inquisitive desk jocky over a know-it-all Eagle any day. 36 responses on this thread: Everyone should take the training. I have gotten up in the morning and gone out to start my morning coffee and seen Eagle scouts work over 30 minutes trying to get a fire going for breakfast, so don't tell me they don't need training...THEY DO! Stosh

With my young boys, new troop, boy-led, patrol-method I have basically let the boys do as they wish, no adult interaction unless asked by the boys for help or if we see an opportunity to offer up a non-binding suggestion, we toss it in. ASM and I sit and evaluate every move the boys struggle with. It has given us an idea of the boys' personalities and how they function as a group. One boy excels and is a natural leader. Of course no one complained when he put on the PL POR patch. The others seem to be a bit stressed out that things aren't progressing as quickly as they should. The PL struggles with getting up to speed and still lacks confidence to step it up to the next level. Heck, he's only 11 years-old. So he was gone last week and I was sitting at a table or two away from the boys and they got to talking about the lack of teamwork at summer camp. The APL asked what could be done and they didn't have much to offer. Whereas the PL doesn't ask for help much, the APL does and invited me into the discussion. We talked about a number of things and they decided it would be good to get some leadership training so the could get things done better and asked what would be good. I said, I didn't know if it was good, but it would be fun was the GBB training I had as a kid. I give them Kudu's web link and said to check it out and let me know. I realize the first time around it's going to be adult led instruction, but still boy organized sessions. It's easy enough that the adults have to teach it only once. From then on, the boys will have to pass it on with annual training for all the new guys coming in. The PL doesn't feel confident signing off on the boy's advancement so they come to me to demonstrate their skill accomplishments. They have a teaching routine as I mentioned in previous posts that when they talk about the skill under consideration it is always in the context of a youth teacher teaching someone else. They become so accustomed to the routine it becomes second nature. A boy came to me and said he was ready to demonstrate his square knot. I said, "Okay." and sat down at the table. Instead of sitting there and simply tying the knot, he stood up, introduced himself, told me what he was going to demonstrate, did the knot tying, offered me the rope and asked me to tie it too. I tied it wrong on purpose and handed it back to him. He spotted the ruse and explained what I had done, re-demonstrated it and had me try again. All this from an 11 year-old working on his Scouter requirements. I seriously doubt whether any of these boys could "demonstrate" any of the skill requirements without going through the whole teaching shebang. Whereas the SM did a little "playing dumb" in the beginning, the boys have now developed a tradition of teaching that the can pass on to the next generation of scouts coming into the program. Every rank skill demonstration has become a teaching opportunity for the boys. It's a nice tradition to start out a new troop with. Stosh

Two years ago I had a young gal come by the house and asked if I wanted to buy Girl Scout cookies. She had on blue jeans and tank top. Nicely dressed for a teenager. I said I love GS cookies, but I was afraid I wasn't sure she was really a Girl Scout. Didn't want to get ripped off. About an hour later the same girl shows up. She has on khaki pants, white shirt, an GSUSA sash on with all the appropriate patches. I smiled and bought 5 Samoans and 5 thin mints. I'm thinking the bill came to about $75???? It is my policy that any Scout shows up at my door in full uniform gets a mega sale. Any kid standing outside a grocery store that is in full uniform and directly asks for a sale gets one, too. Maybe it's seeing too many people trying to cut corners, that when I see someone do it right, it stands out as something special. I make sure I let them know I noticed. Stosh

In the reenacting world there are words for such. The mudsills, the progressives and the FARBs.... then there's BOB's. Stosh

Check the wording in the US Flag Code for civilians. and I do believe naval flags need a ship. I guess if one is going to make up the rules as they go along with the BSA uniform, they might as well teach the boys that the US Flag Code can be treated with the same respect. I'm sure these boys when they aren't doing the photo op might have a few here and there that have unofficial uniforms that might look like they were slept in with neckerchiefs improperly rolled and crooked too. They won the award for sharpest-dressed unit at summer camp. Obviously the BSA inspection sheet was ignored as well. I don't really have much of a problem with people not wearing the uniform properly in as much as I have of those who think it's a proper message to the boys to flaunt disregard of it to the public. My boys are expected to wear a full uniform. When they don't, they are expected to respectfully decline participation in the color guard at the flag ceremonies. When my boys are not in full uniform, i.e. even with necker and shirt, they use the civilian salute. Nothing wrong with that. Uniforming may be just a method, but the messages we convey to the boys is core to the program. Promoting great pride in doing it wrong just doesn't cut it for me and if they were to do it right, they would not wear the uniform at all. Blue jeans and a scout t-shirt is better than what the picture depicts for me. Proper respect is a rare commodity in today's world. BSA used to be a bastion of it in the non-military world. Stosh

Some how I get a feeling that this boy is being overly watched by the SM who seems to be seeing the boy relative to minor homosexual tendencies. If I had an ASM who expressed such ideas to me, I'd be watching the ASM more than the boy. Stosh

Kinda sad to see such impoverished scouts with expensive campaign hats that can't afford uniform pants. Sorry Troop 501, no self-esteem accolades from me. And one can drop the inappropriate desecrated US Flag from your honor guard while you're at it. I'd rather see the boys in blue-jeans and a camp t-shirt rather than try to hype up an incomplete uniform as something to be proud of. Stosh

I do SMC's all the time. Sometimes for rank, sometimes because the boy screwed up and sometimes because he did something nice. A bedwetter who's homesick is pretty much a good candidate for a SMC. Anytime a boy needs one-on-one time with the SM for a troop or personal matter is a SMC in my book. Stosh

The really stupid thing about it all is the site kept telling me that I was not authorized to do that, then it gave me errors and said I couldn't post because I had tried to earlier and a bunch of other stupid messages. It was kinda like it was egging me on and I bought it hook, line and sinker. Finally I cancelled out of the whole thing and was giving up and then it posted it 4 times. I love the last line of the 4th post. "I don't know if this attachment thingy is working." Well, it was and now I know. Stosh

I think they call them ScoutMaster Conferences for a reason. This is the time for real heart to heart, no holds barred, talk with SM and Scout. I make sure NO ONE is within ear-shot of the discussion. We remain visible to the troop (YPT) but what is discussed is no one's business other than the SM and Scout. I have no idea what an ASM or JASM would learn about doing a SMC in the first place. There is no prescribed structure to them, and is entirely at the will and discretion of the SM as to how he wants to handle them. My suggestion would be, don't worry about SMC's until you become a SM and then you'll figure it out on your own. Stosh

There are a number of instructions for making rocket stoves from 12" cement block to tin cans and 55 gallon drums. I did the #10 can with 2 soup cans. All kinds of plans for a ton of different applications are on the internet. Just look up rocket stove. I don't know if this attachment thingy is working. Stosh

There are a number of instructions for making rocket stoves from 12" cement block to tin cans and 55 gallon drums. I did the #10 can with 2 soup cans. All kinds of plans for a ton of different applications are on the internet. Just look up rocket stove. Stosh