Stosh

OMG, so wrong on so many levels. I haven't used the eye-brow removing method of lighting charcoal in years. Kerosene? That had to make the food taste wonderful. This sounds too much like good-old-boys kinda thing that I really don't want any of my boys learning from. It burned for an hour, plus. Was that time measured from FOOOOSH or when the Fire Department showed up? Big jet gas stove? We talking aviation fuel here? Stosh

Prohibited chemical-Fueled Equipment.... Wood does not fall into that category. Think of it as a small fire-ring. Anyone who burns wood in a charcoal grill is thus in violation of this chemical-fueled equipment? I'm thinking probably not. When BSA prohibits the burning of wood as fuel in any man-made fire-ring, fireplace, grill, or other portable contraption, then I'll reconsider my rocket stove. Then there's the kabob pit that would also be outlawed by BSA.... 2 row of bricks and a layer of briquettes between, lay the kabobs across the bricks. Of course this could turn into a 10' pit if one were doing the troop-method cooking. That could become quite dangerous having those briquettes corralled only with man-made bricks. Even the old #10 can cookers would fall into the chemical-fueled equipment in that they burned paraffin. The rocket stove burns wood, grass or any other organic materials I also have a white gas Coleman stove with a butane converter which would make that stove prohibited. Of course, I haven't used white gas in it for years. Also keep it in mind that the rocket stove burns so efficiently that when installed in homes they do not have chimneys. I haven't got the nerve to try that at this point, but it does produce a tremendous amount of heat off of a small amount of fuel. It would seem that these stoves are becoming quite popular in the colder climes of northern Europe. Stosh

The issue isn't big tents. Missed opportunity to teach your SPL what taking care of people is all about. Looks like the kind of leadership that basically takes care of oneself and one's buddies. Definitely not the kind of leadership taught in BSA. Scout Oath: ....to help other people at all times...... Obviously this SPL hasn't a clue as to what that means. I'd pull his POR before I changed the rules on tents. That basically lets the SPL off the hook... That would have been a SMC right then and there with that scout. Stosh

This kind of stuff makes too much sense, they'll never go for it. Stosh

Me thinks thou protestest too much. - Wm. Shakespeare Stosh

Welcome to the world of Paper Eagles. A lot of people don't like that term, but we hear over and over again, the criteria for such a stereotype. I have a boy in one of my troops I'm a commissioner for. Every week beginning about Thursday he starts begging people to come help with his eagle project. Every week an adult here and there helps him out. Where's the leadership here? Where's the management here? The boy is doing the project for the sake of doing a project, not to gain any insight into this leadership and management skills which are obviously nonexistent. This week the SM sent out a notice telling the boys to step up and help out because the day's coming when they'll need help on their eagle projects, too. Now the adults are stepping in and begging for help too. It's kinda sad all the way around. I have PL's putting in more leadership/management on getting their patrols to summer camp than I see out of some of these eagle candidates. Stosh

Life is full of missed opportunities. These boys will pick up the necessary information on the Trail to FC once they get to Boy Scouts. These boys took a pass on TWO opportunities. I'm thinking it's not all that important to them and then boring the boys who did it right the first time doesn't set well with me. If you wish to have the boys get the opportunity to teach the skills to the others, that's fine, but that's a call you're going to need to discuss with the boys who will be teaching. Then there's: some things are important to Den Leaders and Parents, maybe even more important to them than the boys. Stosh

Yep, too many rules do nothing more than suck the fun out of any activity. Who really cares if a boy wants to bring blankets instead of a sleeping bag, a tarp instead of a tent, a Frizbee instead of a mess kit, a duffel bag instead of a backpack, etc. I did a makeshift camp setup and was the only one that didn't get wet in the torrential downpour we got in the middle of the night. I had a poncho that I used as a rain fly, and slept in a blanket sheet combo with nice ground pad.... and when I zipped the body-bag shut, I stayed nice and dry. Let the boys run the show, after all, it's their program! Stosh

I started a new unit and got a lot of help from the Council. They provided lists of names of Cub Scouts in the target area for the unit that would otherwise have to travel further to another troop. The give out a heads up to boys that have inquired about scouting in the area. They notify the packs in the area that a new unit is forming and it gives parents another option for their boy when he goes into Scouts. As far as new unit start-up, I felt they did a really nice job for the unit. I picked up Webelos cross-overs as well as off the street walk-ins at the council office. Of course one must remember they only gave out leads, I had to get off my butt and go out and do the actual recruiting. Stosh

Why is the committee messing around in the QM's job? Each patrol should have X number of tents assigned to it. It's up to the patrol QM to keep track of them. A Sharpie to write the patrol name and a number on it would take but a few seconds. End of discussion. If something needs fixing because they wrecked it, then the patrol had better start doing some patrol fundraisers. These things need to be dealt with at the patrol level in a patrol-method troop by the boys, NOT the committee. The troop QM is the liaison between the committee treasurer and patrols. But the committee has no business interfering in the operation of the troop. The committee, or at least the person making this stupid rule, need to go get training for their position. Sounds like this troop is well on it's way to an adult-led, troop-method troop. Stosh

In our area there really are bears, so one of the first conversations we have is one on bear safety. I don't run a tight ship, but the boys do. This year at summer camp, all 4 first year boys all took the same MB's, but at different times, but stayed together as buddies. I had no say-so in that process. The PL signed up the boys online. I didn't know what MB's they were even taking until I was asked to sign the Blue Cards. AND for the outdoor overnight for Wilderness Survival, one of the boys was homesick, so the PL notified the leaders at the overnight site, he and the homesick boy would be returning back to our camp. The PL knew he had to stick with his buddy and took a partial because he stayed back at camp with the boy. He couldn't leave him there alone overnight with just the two adult leaders (only 4 boys all first year at summer camp this year). My PL takes the leadership training in the Buddy System extremely seriously. When I reminded him he was going to have to take a partial by missing out on the overnight he just looked at me and said, "I know, but I have to take care of my boys." For an 11 year old boy, even I was surprised at that. My ASM is the PL's grandmother and told me later that she started to cry a bit when she heard him tell me that. Stosh Rule #2: "Look and act like a Scout". Tenderfoot Requirement #9, Take care of your Buddies, A scout helps other people at all times, is trustworthy, and somewhere wedged in some crack, a Scout leads by serving. This kid doesn't seem to think lip service will cut it for rule #2. Stosh

In today's culture, the name of the game is not to be creative and make it something special, but instead to be creative and figure out how to get by with the least amount of effort. This forum seems to occasionally point out where adults do a good job of leading by example. Stosh

How does one boy to a tent justify the buddy system? How does one keep track of the sleep walkers? How about the boy who gets up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom and doesn't come back for some reason, i.e. trips and falls in the dark? I would rather have an 8-man patrol tent than 8 solo tents any day. At summer camp they slept 2 to a wall tent, but the patrols put 4 wall tents end to end and had one big lodge tent. They loved it and I didn't have a problem of boys wandering off in the middle of the night. In my troop, everyone is buddied up. Only solo scout is a PL with odd number in a patrol. In my troop as a kid, it was 4 patrols, 4 big wall tents. Stosh

What are the rules for the Dutch ovens? Just curious. Stosh

Naw, I wish I could cherry pick them out of the local packs, but no such luck. Instead I work hard at developing a culture of leadership where I constantly am seeking out different things the boys do and relate it to leadership. If one of the boys goes get's the flags for opening ceremony without being told, they are congratulated and thanked for thinking about the other boys. Everyone gets the same opportunity to lead any and all activities and projects. Sure some hang back, but eventually they will find something they get excited about and will step forward and lead. One just has to be patient and wait for that moment to present itself. Every boy is taught how to teach, that means they will all have to lead eventually. Sure they are shy and uncomfortable at first, but the more they practice, the more relaxed they become, they are learning! That's how it happens. I don't have older scouts to teach and mentor, they are learning as they go along. It's not something that one has as a curriculum from some BSA program, but a constant awareness on the part of the boy and adult leadership to encourage the premise of taking care of someone other than themselves. In this day and age that is a major step forward in the arena of servant leadership. I don't have many behavior problems because I try and head them off before they get a chance to manifest themselves. We have one patrol currently, but with the new boys coming in this fall, we're going to need a second PL. Who's going to step up? I don't know yet, but maybe my PL will take on TG and train two PL's! One never knows what the boys will decide. Right now my major "problem" is two boys "fighting" over who gets to be GrubMaster at the next outing! One boy was exposed to Dutch oven cooking at summer camp (was a real patoot at the first outing, didn't want to do anything and was bored the whole time! So he said.) and now he wants to be GrubMaster and told his mom that he wants a Dutch oven for his birthday coming up in a couple of months. Where's all this coming from???? I dunno, but I'm surely not going to get in the way of letting it happen. It's going to be a sad day when he finds out he can't use GrubMaster as a POR for rank advancement, but I really don't think it will make a bit of difference. I did suggest (always a non-binding suggestion) to the PL that it might be a good idea to have a GrubMaster cookoff to see who gets to be the Grubmaster for the patrol. Win or lose, the patrol should get some pretty good grub out of the deal. Stosh

I concur with the rest. Someone has too much free time on their hands. Stosh

If one has need of an SPL, they should also be large enough to need a functional ASPL. The SPL is the "PL" of PL's and the ASPL is the "PL" of the other troop officers, i.e. Quartermaster, Scribe, Chaplain Aide, TG, Instructor, etc. If one has two patrols and one Dutch oven, does the oven go with the patrol that the QM is a member of? I like to pull the troop officers into their own patrol. For camping purpose, the SPL actually is a member of the ASPL's "patrol". When PL/patrols have need of a troop officer the PL's know they can coordinate it through the ASPL who knows where his patrol members are. I'm thinking the Troop Officers should be training up their replacement with those in each of the patrols. Each patrol should have a QM, a CA, a Scribe, etc., too. It's all part of good communication and also a nice vehicle for mentoring new troop officers. No one stands around doing nothing. They are all expected to produce a bit of leadership for the benefit of others throughout the gathering. Stosh

"The new SPL could not grasp his duties (despite training which he described as a "waste of time" and constant mentoring) and announced at the year's first campout that he "really didn't like camping." Obviously the boy is looking only for the patch and rank advancement credit for himself. He has no interest in looking out for anyone other than himself. I would question his honesty and trustworthiness for taking the position in the first place and I surely wouldn't give him credit for any time served as SPL. My personal training mantra is "Take care of your boys!" ("Anyone who has an entire Troop of Scouts who actually care is truly blessed" - thanks for the quote scoutergipper!) Everything my boys do is always in context of that phrase. I don't care if he is the Scribe keeping advancement records, the Grubmaster, putting together a menu, the Quartermaster getting equipment ready for a patrol, they all have a focus on something other than themselves! The PL's are masters of this and that's what makes them good. If one doesn't like camping then don't volunteer to be PL where you're expected to get the boys out into the woods! The phrase, Johnny is serving as PL this go around is dead on! Is he serving or is he just racking up advancement points while reveling in the glory of being a PL? Am I inventing my own program on leadership or am I merely sticking closely to the principles of the BSA on leadership development? "Probably 80 percent of the Scouts don't want anything to do with leadership." Well, in my troop leadership is not an option. I don't care whether or not one has a patch on their shirt or not at one time or another throughout a meeting, outing, or activity one has to step and and be the leader. EVERYONE has to lead. A group of leaders is what makes teamwork work. Everyone leads and takes care of everyone else. The PL makes sure everyone knows about the coming outing. The Scribe makes sure everyone pays the necessary fees so that food can be purchased. The QM makes sure the Grubmaster has the equipment, so that meals can be made for everyone. The Grubmaster makes sure he keeps an eye on the clock so that food goes on the table at the appropriate time. Okay, that 4 different people (1/2 a patrol) that work together, take the lead to make sure their responsibility is fulfilled and makes sure those that rely on them get what they need. It's called teamwork, or it's also called leadership. I don't create Stosh Scouts that follow a program of what I tell them, I create Boy Scouts that lead their fellow scouts, or should I say take care of them. It's a concept put forth in the PL handbook, but like a lot of things in the BSA program, just doesn't get put into practice. Stosh

dfscott - You have learned a valuable lesson on how quickly the dynamics of a group can change when someone comes along and takes a pass on the appropriate protocol. It didn't have to be a charismatic SPL to pull it off, it could be a natural leader JASM, ASM or even SM where the boys all quickly learn THEY don't have to do any leading and just sit back and let the charismatic person do it all for them. They have mastered this skill of letting their parents do it all for them and helicopter parents play right into this and maintain the childishness of their child well into their teens. Only when one recognizes this possibility will they have a little red flag pop up in the back of their head to warn them of the impending cliff. "I wasn’t sure if I bought that, but didn’t see any reason to override him." That was the little red flag.... "The PLs (all younger) have stepped back and let him do it." That was little red flag #2. "And unfortunately, his family is moving again, so all that leadership is heading out the door." and now you know the task ahead, start teaching leadership all over again. This will be an excellent opportunity to say, we can't have all leadership in the hands of just one person, everyone has to step up, not just the SPL or you're gonna burn out the SPL in just a few months. A natural leader as you had will run circles around the glamor scout that doesn't have what it takes to make it go. His credibility will turn south quickly. You need to make sure he and every PL get back on the track of focusing on the responsibility of their small group, i.e. the patrols and that the SPL is there as the #1 resource for help and he won't be doing it all for them anymore. "the SPL will have the same rules I give the ASMs: don’t direct scouts – only interfere if there’s a safety issue. All direction should go through PLs, and only then if they really need it." YES, YES, YES! Only one small change "....and only then if they ask for help." I might think they "need" it and step in just when the boy was on the brink of a personal breakthrough! Let them struggle, they'll learn quicker if they have to struggle a bit. Best of luck! Stosh

"What is rule number three of your three basic rules? "If the SM doesn't like the way scouts do the first two rules, the SM takes over." From my perspective, "THAT IS NOT BOY-LED, it is called SM-LED! Well, when one directly misquotes another person's posting, it has a ring of an insincere agenda to it, too. Just for the record. My rule #3 has always been "Have fun" and I seriously doubt that that falls into any SM-LED definition in anyone's book. And also for the record, ANYONE, other youth, adult leader, parent or bystander has the right to step in and correction an infraction to any of my three rules, not just the SM. And if anyone were to look at the PL Handbook, it clearly states the PL should be a servant leader and I would assume that this would apply to the SPL as well. Of course it would be difficult to stretch a definition of mandates, directives and assignments as servant leadership. " But the real trick is that true growth comes from the young scouts observing the older scouts in action." I prefer the teaching method rather than the standing around and hoping the osmosis method works which often doesn't because each boy is unique and the style of one doesn't work for the next one. I can't speak for Kudu, but I find it rather strange that a lot of the problems described on this form haven't been a problem with me in the 40+ years of working with youth, 30+ of them in scouting. It just leaves me wondering what I'm doing differently. Whatever it is, I'm going to continue doing it.... if it ain't broke, don't fix it. If my suggestions help someone, great, if not, just ignore them and skip over to the next thread. Stosh And as a foot note, I found it difficult to read what you posted as being different than what I was saying.