Stosh

I find that leadership training and management training are not the same thing. I tend to focus on the leadership training and my boys seem a lot happier with their successes. Stosh

Nope, they are given training and then they can do whatever they want. The only expectation is that they do something that will justify the advancement requirement. That is spelled out in the training. They are given the tools to do the job and what they do with them is up to them. It's really not my problem, it's theirs, as are all the rank advancement requirements. "I tell them up front that I expect the boys to prove to me and the BOR that they have actually done what was necessary to fulfill the POR. Well, every boy can define what that is in their own manner (character) and then go out and actually serve in the way they want (Leadership) and when all is said and done, they have evidence to prove they actually DID SOMETHING! I really don't care what it is, as long as it is SOMETHING!" I don't believe I said they perform better, as you think I said, I'm just saying it is expected that they at least perform. And from the comments of others on the forum, I'm thinking there are a few SM's out there that would be happy with getting that much out of some of their boys, too. Stosh

Well, I have nothing but Scouts right now, all of them working on Tenderfoot and one of them was quite impressed with the OA ceremony held last month at summer camp. He was asking a ton of questions about it and so I suggested he look into OA so the other boys can know about it. Some of the boys in the troop couldn't make it to summer camp. While it is not "official" he's the OA Rep, he's the closest thing to it. I don't see OA Rep as a full-time POR anyway so whatever he does is more than a lot of boys I have seen wear the patch in the past. As a matter of fact only one boy is actually wearing a POR patch and that's the PL. There is a boy acting APL, but doesn't wear a patch, another boy doing QM but doesn't wear a patch, two vying for GrubMaster, and another who brought up the subject of more boys coming in next winter from Cub Packs in the area and there'll be a need for another PL/APL combo maybe. As more training falls into place, the boys will naturally drift towards doing POR's Any one of them could be an Instructor. When needed for summer camp, the PL was SPL so we had an SPL who held the rank of Scout. Try floating that by some of these troop's regulations some time. And by the way, no one at summer camp questioned the SPL who held the rank of Scout. He did his job and everything went just fine. Stosh

One also has to remember that having POR responsibilities and getting credit for them are two different animals. It works both ways. There are boys in my troop fighting to be GrubMaster knowing full well it isn't a POR for credit position. Also I have no problem with getting boys to take on APL when they know it won't garner them anything. If I have a boy that wears a OA Rep and works his tail off getting OA to come in and do elections and spends a ton of time promoting OA in the troop, who am I to say he has to take the patch off. He might not be First Class and after all the work might not even get elected to OA even if he was First Class. The cheerleaders don't have to play the game to be effective and might even have some sway in the outcome of a game. My boys do far more than the requirements dictate and so I'm not worried about any EBOR down the road. If OA comes in an says they want to talk to the troops OA rep and they find out he's not an OA member, I'm sure they'll still talk to him and work with him in dealing with the troop. I'm also sure that if he asked to be on the mailing list of the Lodge they would do so just so information concerning OA can flow to the troop. If our OA Tenderfoot Rep asks the OA to come in and do an AOL ceremony for a pack that has potential scouts for the troop, I'm thinking they still might say yes. To date I haven't had to tell the OA guys showing up at a troop meeting that because we're boy-led troop, you're going to have to talk to the Tenderfoot kid with the OA Rep patch on or you've just wasted a trip. So I bend the rules a bit.... it's how I teach my boys to take care of their buddies. If I got a kid fired up about OA and he's not a member yet, I don't care if he wears a patch. Stosh

It's a fine line in today's society the SM has to follow. Whereas all the boys will need POR for advancement, the vagularities of the requirement leaves the whole can-of-worms in the SM's lap. Not only that it leaves a huge bull's eye on his back as well. So Little Johnny gets elected SPL and knows Jack about what to do. Well, leadership and character would expect him to step up to the plate and learn the job. But that's not in the requirements, so we harangue and plead and bribe and threaten and whatever else we can do and the best you get is deer-in-the-headlights look. So for 6 months he's in like Flint and doesn't have to actually do or prove anything, just serve in the position. If at the end of the 6 months the SM does not check off the box and Little Johnny gets his self-esteem stroked, the parents step in and pull the trigger. Now the SM and parents duke it out while Little Johnny sits back and waits for his reward. Where's the character building and leadership development built into that process? So I tend to drift from the line in the sand, and draw flack as the one developing Stosh Scouts. I tell them up front that I expect the boys to prove to me and the BOR that they have actually done what was necessary to fulfill the POR. Well, every boy can define what that is in their own manner (character) and then go out and actually serve in the way they want (Leadership) and when all is said and done, they have evidence to prove they actually DID SOMETHING! I really don't care what it is, as long as it is SOMETHING! Each progressive POR will expect them to come up with something a bit more in order to keep from getting tagged as sluffing off. Last POR you did ABC and now with this new POR you didn't even do that much, what's up with that? The onus of evidence is with the scout. It has nothing to do with me, their parents, the BOR, or even the program, it's what they think is necessary to be done and then step up and actually do it so that when the SMC rolls around one has something to talk about besides them not doing anything. But like I said, the onus is on them. I can coddle the boys and their self-esteem, or I can expect miracles. I'm always surprised that even some of the time I do get the miracles and that is a major dose of self-respect from the boy which is far more valuable than self-esteem. But most of the time, I'm willing to settle for a job well done or even adequately done for some of the boys. Stosh

Way to go miranthis! You just opened a huge can-o'-worms here. I'm thinking it might bring BSA to it's knees! Stosh

And so we have all these people on the forum complaining about Eagle Mills, Paper Eagles, and Boy-Led programs with all kinds of problems of their own. If everyone were to keep silent, there would be no shared learning going on. What works for one troop might be a total disaster for another, but if what I'm doing isn't working, it would be nice to find out what others out there are doing. While I promote Boy-Led, Patrol-Method, there are others out there that .... well don't really promote Adult-Led, Troop-Method, but have gotten stuck with long standing tradition along those lines. Well between the two extremes there is a ton of grey area. If one lives in one part of the grey area and wants to move to another area, who's got the map and compass for that? Where does one go to find out if the grass is really greener on the other side of the fence? Just remember the greener grass on the other side of the fence will probably need more mowing than the weed patch one lives in now. Can this glorious idea of Boy-Led, Patrol-Method backfire? Sure, when the parents step up and complain that their unmotivated son isn't advancing and the only excuse given is that the SM expects too much leadership from the boys, yes, then you have a problem when the new CC throws the SM under the bus, and replaces him with another adult that immediately has more ASM's than boys. Then there's the Silver Beaver SM who spent 20+ years running a tight Adult-Led, Troop-Method program that a few parents got wind of the Boy-Led, Patrol-Method and flat out canned him in a heartbeat. Or the troop that folded because the only person that would step up and run the troop was a Boy-Led, Patrol-Method SM and the troop was traditionally a Adult-Led, Troop Method troop and they would rather have no troop than a Boy-Led troop. We're all swimming in shark-infested waters here. People are offering up a ton of floatation rings with the hope of pulling you to safety, but if you will only grab on to a pink ring with a grey rope, or you don't like the guy on the other end of the rope, you might have to wait awhile. Over the past 30 years I have seen a ton of different troops out there and yet it only represents a small portion of scouting in the world. I would prefer everyone keeping the course and ignoring those who would seek to silent the dissenting voices out there. I for one want to hear them. Stosh

He might have quit the scouting program, but I'm thinking he will never really quit scouting...... Stosh

Maybe back in the day POR's represented character and/or leadership, but today, discussion seems to revolve more around how the boys are working hard to get advancement credit with the least amount of effort when it comes to these POR's. Kinda makes one wonder just how much and what BSA has evolved into. There's no requirement that says that a POR is to represent anything other than task management. Here's the task. You are responsible to just do it and you'll get credit. It has no reflection on leadership and very little on character unless the boy completely blows it off and gets a freebie handout on advancement. Stosh

If JASM is 16 who's going to check up on the troop that has a 13 year old Eagle who holds the JASM POR? Or maybe the 13 year old Star scout that is the oldest boy in the troop? or.... or.... or..... No one cares except the boys in the troop. Let them make up their own rules and as long as the troop functions smoothly, myob. It's not a ditch worth dying in.... Why would an OA Rep need to be an OA member to promote OA? The only ones that seem to get all worked about this stuff are the adults, and it's not even their program. Stosh

One doesn't need to be in uniform to do the scout-like thing. Dump the uniform, wear blue jeans and a scout t-shirt to show your support and don't worry about it. One is there to help out, not promote scouting. People who see an occasional scout t-shirt will put two and two together. Stosh

Cross-over in our Council is a Boy Scout event for those boys coming into the unit who are former Cub Scout and it doesn't make any difference whether they are AOL or not. Scouter/Joining requirements do not expect a boy to have the Oath and Law memorized. That comes with Tenderfoot. If it is a hassle to have 2-3 cross-overs a year, the simple solution is to just let the Boy Scouts do it as a welcoming into Boy Scouts rather than the graduation from Cub Scouting. I don't remember all the Cub Scouts who crossed-over to nowhere over the years. It is really a stupid ceremony for Cubs to be doing. The very first cross-over there were two troops the pack was feeding. The two unis had their people on one side of the bridge and as each boy came across they got their whatever gifts, neckers, books, stuff from whichever troop they wanted to join. Yet there were a few of the boys who crossed-over and then went and sat with their parents. The sad part of it all was that the boys and their parents didn't seem to be the least bit embarrassed about it either. The best was when my troop went to a Blue Gold to do the cross-over for the pack and when all was said and done, none of the 7 Cubs "crossing-over" joined my troop or any other for that matter. They all went back and sat with their parents. Stosh

When did it become an adult's responsibility to get the boys up in the morning? It is always interesting on Sunday morning when we need to be back home when the parents pick the kids up. I just announce what time the vehicles will be leaving in the morning and if they want a ride they can be ready or if it doesn't matter, when we get home, we'll send the parents back to fetch them. The boys know me well enough not to press the issue and I've never had a problem with the boys getting up and going in the morning. Two-deep leadership means 2 adults are present at the activity, it doesn't mean they have to hover over everything all the time to make sure the boys are doing it right. It just means there are two adults at the activity. In my case, one of them is always drinking coffee telling the other to mind their own business and leave the boys alone. Stosh

My mom could sew and I suppose she did teach me, I don't remember, but I do remember sewing on my Cub Scout patches. Those little arrow points were really a bear to get on right. I had a discussion just last night as to why one of the boys didn't have his patches on yet. He told me his mother hadn't found the time yet. She's been having health problems. But then I reminded him, it's not her responsibility, it's his...... It totally amazes me how unable people today are when it comes to taking care of themselves. Whatever happened to be prepared? Stosh

a bounce house? Stosh

My PL and APL haven't earned Tenderfoot yet.... The boys determine who gets what POR in my troop, not their age or rank. I read to the boys what the BSA expectations are for selecting/electing their officers and then they can figure it out any way they so choose. Stosh

Yes, the dufus two rows ahead... and yes, it was hot standing in the parking lot for 3 hours in the hot sun. I never want to repeat that ever again. Oh, and if the officer had drawn his gun, everyone else would have cheered him on! Stosh

I work with helping a boy build self respect, not self esteem. You don't earn advancement without proving you have. Stosh

This is the key! Most boys don't select a site properly, nor do they set up their tent correctly. I do believe it's one of the TF->FC requirements, but when one is pencil whipping the requirements, it often gets missed. Stosh

I haven't been on this thread, but it sounds like the Scouts need a little education on what happens when you screw around at the border crossings. These guys have zero sense of humor and they can make things quite difficult if one doesn't follow directions exactly as outlined by signage and verbal directions. If you do, however, they are very pleasant and professional. I was with a bus tour of stupid college students once that turned a 15 minute routine crossing into a 3 hour ordeal with just one smart alack remark. They scoured every nook and cranny of every piece of luggage, they had everyone empty everything into the parking lot and then they scoured every nook and cranny of the bus. Going into Canada is no big deal, they want your money so welcome!!!! Getting back into the US is where the rub comes. So, when the officer asks you for your name, address, and passport, speak your name and address clearly and hand him your passport. DO NOT under any circumstances say, "Who wants to know?" There were any number of others on that bus, had they had a gun, would have pulled it on him too. I have also known about border crossing officers who were fired within hours of a less than professional demeanor as well. They are the only people out there protecting our borders, it might do well to cut them a bit of slack and treat them with respect. Stosh

OR..... he read "rocket fuel stove" rather than just "rocket stove". I've made that mistake a couple of times and put my cat into orbit. Stosh

When I do OLS cooking demonstrations, I generally go with the stick, pot, mess kit, griddle, wok, dutch oven progression (all patrol-method). It gives the learners an opportunity to view a variety of different cooking options available outdoors. Because of the limitations of Cub Scouting, I also include cooking for larger groups beyond the 8 of a patrol. The variety of different cooking options allows the participants the awareness that the GrubMaster isn't restricted in his/her option just because they have moved from the kitchen to the campsite. I also teach the use of menus/recipes that enhance the seasons. Spring and summer recipes tend to be different than those of late summer and fall. I also focus on use of the different cooking sources, wood, charcoal and gas. I shy away from things like reflector ovens and backpack bakers because they are generally only used for training and not many people actually use them in the field on a regular basis. OLS participants should walk away from the demonstration with an "I can do that.." attitude rather than an a "Wow, it's amazing what other people can do..." attitude. Stosh