Stosh

I sat back a bit and watched this thread and reevaluated the whole process without comment. 1) BSA us unilaterally making major changes to the program. 2) The process is being supported by a sham survey and propaganda video to justify the decision. 3) There is negative feedback to the process. 4) BSA will give it time to sink in and hopefully it will all blow over in a few months. By the middle of next month, all of this is going to be old news. BSA got away with it with the homosexual scout, then the homosexual scout leader, then it's the girls, then it's going to be something else. In the Ivory office they tweak the program, watch and WAIT. Nothing really happens, they poke the dog again..... Hmmm, nothing too drastic so they poke at it once more. This process has been repeated over and over again since the early 1970's, the second half the scouting history. Am I going to get too upset with this whole process? Not really, but I have put my ASM on notice that it may be he becomes the SM overnight. So everyone wails and moans and gnashes their teeth about how people are quitting the BSA. Well. I will never quit on the BSA, but I will also go on notice that what I signed on for and what it has become, it just may mean BSA quit on me. After almost 40 years now, I have watched the decline from the prestige and honor it once held in the minds of the American public. No survey or video is going to convince me that this downward spiral is going to change just be turning the program into a generic social club like all other organizations for kids today. Laud the merits of the BSA all you want, it doesn't ring as true as it once was and now sounds like nothing more than people yelling down an empty well.

Segregation, now known as safe spaces, is a hard nut to crack. How can it be a safe place when others don't want you there? GS/USA didn't want me as a leader, so be it. Daughters joined anyway. I really don't want to be where I am not wanted. Organizations that market to a certain segment of society target that niche and do better than those who try being all things to all people. There is a moral issue with certain aspects. A boys organization designed for boys need to be open to all boys regardless. If an organization is designed for Christian boys I know that unless I fit the criteria I will need to find a better fit elsewhere. Their program doesn't fit my needs. I have no right to force them to do so. I learned a long time ago that picking my friends is better if we all start out on the same page.

I repeat, let the boys decide. If they want you, surround yourself with good ASMs as role models. It's not up to you. It should be up the boys.

Can't go with turkey, Ben Franklin wanted that for the national bird.

Sorry Col. I drive a pickup, the Mrs. drives the SUV,and she thinks coed Boy Scouts it's a stupid idea too. Her words not min I forgot to mention, she too has her permit to carry.

Let the boys select a SM.

If the girls really want the program, retire the Eagle rank and replace it with maybe a Phoenix rank, the resurrected dead bird and see how many girls still want to join and how many boys will stay. I am thinking the BSA will tank. If one were to go with just the merits of the program, National would realize that sentiment and politics are the only thing keeping the organization afloat.

Just some observations... I wonder what the conversation was between Lord BP and Lady BP that resulted in Boy Scouts and Girl Guides needing to be separated? Then I wonder if any of the conversation would be relevent to this thread. And then how many of their comments would get a red down arrow? The local option is a farce unless one is planning to hold meetings in the proverbial closet.. all outings would have to be sanctioned by BSA but run totally independent. Once one leaves the closet, all BSA activity is coed, so in reality local option is only for the local activity. It would seem that the local option isn't any option whatsoever.

I have never heard of such a thing It they were in direct competition with the BSA on membership, that might be an issue, but two mutually exclusive organizations sharing a table? I can't imagine any such policy, but with the way things are going in the BSA lately, anything is possible. Welcome to the forum! Good question.

Lemme see..... Co-ed is good for the BSA just like it's been good for dozens of other youth organizations out there. Okay, let's then ask the question what's left out there on the market for those who want a all-male, masculine youth development program where boys can learn how to be men, fathers, husbands, and be able to provide those things when they mature. Oh, girls can do all of that, too..... which means the males are no longer a functionally needed part of society anymore. Which is great, because one can then go fishing, hunting. camping, boating 24/7 and be totally irresponsible. Let the single moms be the breadwinners, the financial stability, the protector, the provider. They can be the Zena Warrior Princesses and defend our country along with financially supporting their children in 2 years of 24/7 day care while they are deployed over-seas. They got it covered, what say you and I grab a brewski and head on down to the lake for some serious fishing? Works for me. And what's seriously going to fill in the gaps in this whole process the BSA is going through? Name the #1 ranked all male youth group in America today? Yep urban gangs. Oh, but you say they are co-ed? Seriously? How many females really are in any form of leadership in those groups? Without the moral compass of course it'll become even worse. Idle males hanging around with nothing to do. Lord of the Flies anyone? Okay, name the second all-male groupings in today's society? .... Yeah, me to, I'm still thinking.

10' rule A knock-off campaign hat costs less than a BSA uniform shirt.... plain. Knockoff green cargo pants are not that hard to find and not that expensive. An Expedition BSA hat is pricier than the knockoff. My boys decked them out brass troop numbers and hat cords to distinguish patrols. Kinda nice. My present troop goes with trim on the neckers to distinguish patrols. Lot's cheaper than hats. One has lots of options to go on besides bluejeans......100 yards away they look wrong.

I'm beginning to think this co-ed thing is a good thing. Dump the Scouts and the Mrs. and I start putting on traveling, camping, hiking, kayaking, fishing, 6 week trip to Alaska (my bucket list) The Canyon Country of the Southwest (her bucket list), and maybe get the granddaughters out into the woods camping. Oh, you say Family Scouting is a program that can do all that? Yep, when pigs fly. Both my daughters are homeschooling their children. I have been tasked to be part of that process. They didn't need to twist my arm very hard.

They can learn those skills at home with siblings They can learn those skills at school with classmates. They can learn those skills at church with their friends. They can learn those skills at the Family Y with everyone else in the gym. They can learn those skills at 4-H, they have a great leadership development program and it's co-ed. They can learn those skills at Boys & Girls Clubs, they now have opened up a character/leadership development program. So in today's society, can they go to just hang out with the guys and do guy things like shoot guns, fish, play with rockets, build fires, cook in the woods, etc. Once BSA adds their brand to the list above of pretty much same thing different place, they become just one of another competing program for the attention of our boys. Let me clue everyone in, Cars win over Scouts, Video Games win over Scouts, Sports win over Scouts, Faith organizations win over Scouts, Family wiins over scouts, Band wins over Scouts, Show Choir wins over Scouts, Dating wins over Scouts. Why? Because we have been promising great adventures and never following through on it. We promised fun, and we sit at picnic tables and listen to lectures. OOOOoooh Rifle MB! Yea! until you get to the range where you sit and listen to the RangeMaster rattle on about gun safety and then after an eternity of waiting your tern. You finally get to touch the gun and they give you 1 bullet? Really? But wait, the girl in line steps up and begins to show you how to load the gun because you were bored out of our gourd during the lecture. She pops off a bulls eye and now it's your turn. Yep, that's the adventure of the new Age of Family Scouts. Oh for the Real Scout program that used to mean something. Pat McManus, where are you today?

German chickens! Duh!

The video, discussion and survey were not provided in our council, so I'll keep it in mind that when it comes to this topic I'm missing a lot more than just a lot of the content. If ignorance is bliss, then National must think I'm ecstatic about this whole thing.

Riddle me this, Joker, who is the person who strings power lines over marinas where sailboats are moored and/or traversing?

I find the boys generally are harder on themselves that I am with discipline. Therefore I tend to leave it open-ended as to how the boy is going to prove he has changed. SM: "So what are you planning on doing to correct this issue?" Scout: "I"m going to write 'I will not get in trouble at camp', a thousand times in my notebook." SM: "Do you think that's going to make choices different in the future?" Scout: "How about you telling me what I have to do." SM: "I think we decided this was your problem. Right?" Scout: "But I don't know what you expect me to do" SM: "I think we decided this was your problem. Right?" Now I'm not so cruel as to let this go on forever, but if the boy is consistently focused on making right choice for X # of days, it will become an instilled habit. Well, at least around you, anyway. So when one thinks the process has become a part of the boy's awareness when faced with "It sounded like a good idea at the time." kinds of things he will at least pause and think. After a while of watching the boy, I will find an opportunity to let the boy know I have noticed a change and congratulate him in his progress of maturity. I guess it's just my style in that check-boxed requirements whether they be adult mandated or cooperatively derived, seem to mark an "end" to the effort. I always like to leave a wee bit of open-endedness to the process for any future problems the boy may face. If all I do is get the boy to stop for a second and think about bad behavior before it happens, I count that as a win for the boy. Repeated returns to the same beginning over and over again just to get another series of check boxes is difficult on me more than the boy. I really don't want to take on solving HIS problem by making it my own. But alas, whether it be your approach or mine, there are going to be boys that either it works or it doesn't. I always like a good Plan-B and it would entail many of the issues you brought up in your approach. I really hate going the Plan-C of removing the boy from the unit or even from activities marked out in time allotments. 6-weeks, 6-months, etc.

I thought the Palms issue was well done. I only heard about it here on the forum a week before it was implemented. I guess I missed the memo about the survey..... and the video..... and the training session.... and the discussion..... Well, it was kinda the same for the homosexual youth...... And the homosexual adult leadership..... Come to think of it, they've been riding this slippery slope of non-information for a long time now..... or didn't you get the memo on that?

I really hope for the survival of whatever program emerges, the vote is overwhelming. If the vote is close, losing half the trained leadership all at once could be a real problem.

My council is totally silent on the whole issue. No letters, no emails, no conversations at all. As a matter of fact, our District Roundtable is going to meet next week, the agenda came out and not one word on this issue. Our Roundtable Commissioner travels all over the country keeping in the loop on everything. Not one word, nada. The only reason I know about it is publications and the internet. Maybe the pushback from this is more focused on just a bunch of little splashes instead of a Tsunami they would have if they did this all over the country at the same time.divide and conquer, Maybe they don't want certain areas of the country to take the survey and askew the results. That's another trick to get a survey to say what outcome you are going for. 100% of the people surveyed are in favor of letting girls into Boy Scouts... really, both of them. And why does letting girls into Boy Scouts sound kinda dumb in the first place? Oh, yeah, it's FAMILY Scouting, that sounds better. And an after thought..... the trainers that come along with the video? How many of them are going to show the sunny side of the street in their preso just before the people take the survey? From my experience in college with a business major and psychology minor, this whole process has the ear-marks of a forgone conclusion grasping at validation by targeting favorable audiences.

Well, as I posted earlier, it's not always a knee-jerk for the people running the program. They can all say, been there, done that. I have watched the BSA slide down it's slippery slope for going on 45+ years now and for the most part this is not something new.

If they have the survey on line, why isn't the video on line? It should be self explanatory. I've been working with co-ed youth programs for 45+ years now. What is it they are going to explain that anyone with children don't already know?

Just got back from my troop meeting. The boys were at summer camp and I missed it. Two ASM's handled it, I got called out on an emergency at the last minute and couldn't go. What I didn't know was one of the ASM's talked to the camp and they agreed that she could bring along her granddaughter. Our troop is small and so we went in with another troop. Needless to say I had to remind the boys that a Scout is Courteous, they were not at all please with this gal and the nickname they gave her I can't put on the forum. Her older brother used to be part of the troop, but after a number of boys quit because of him, he went off to another troop.. Anyway, she was supposed to stay out of the way and entertain herself, but she attended MB classes, involved herself in all the freetime activities, and finally when she insisted she would be doing all the cooking for the boys, the adult leadership from BOTH units stepped in and put a halt to her interference. When I mentioned that BSA was considering going co-ed, they unanimously said they would quit scouting. Now she was the only scout aged gal at camp and that may have had something to do with it and maybe it's just her personality. I don't know, I am only going on what the boys said. I sure hope this isn't something that if BSA goes co-ed, that they have any regrets for doing so.

My sympathies go out to the families and friends affected by this. I know I repeat myself too often on the forum, but I will anyway once again. BE SAFE OUT THRE!

Surveys that add questions or drop questions depending on one's answers is common. The number of questions asked is irrelevant. If one were to answer all "NO" to every question, the questions asking for further detail on "YES" answers only seek further detail on issues that would be of no concern to one who answered "NO". I'm thinking the # of questions is really a moot point.