Stosh

Someone went to a whole lot of effort to put up a spoof website. What kinda surprises me she gets away with using the BSA logo in her advertising. I'm thinking the BSA can actually go after her for that. I"m with TAHAWK on this one, just an ambulance chaser. She's just using the public record files to promote herself as a child abuse specialty lawyer. Stosh

I thought the same thing, but not being a moderator, I thought maybe I'd get tossed from the forum. Stosh

Parents need to find a social outlet other than dove-tailing in on their children's activities. Kinda like get a life of your own sort of thing. I don't want to say grow up, but be a parent instead of just trying to be a friend to your kids. One might even want to think about developing a relationship with the spouse. In a few short years they will be the sum total of your life unless you have worked it out that all your kids continue to live in your basement until they are 40. Here's how it works. All the parents of all the boys that want to do BSA things, get together and go someplace other than where your kids are. You don't have to babysit them and you might actually have a good time getting to know other adults who are looking for something other than babysitting their kids, too. You don't have to wear a uniform and you can have your wife and other siblings go along with no hassle. It's a win, win. Your boy grows up and so does the parent. If someone other than on the forum came to me with this idea, I would bet good money it was a joke. On this forum it seems like the place for a lot of really bad ideas get aired out. This is one of them. Stosh

A lot more than struggling through the learning curve waste of time most go through with their advancement POR's for 6 months. All my DC's are expected to commit a full 12 months on the job and earn the National DC Award. Every boy that has done that has remained DC for a year or two afterwards as well. Wow, really? I wonder what new Leadership lessons he learned in this 12th year of high school in the same school district? Kinda makes one wonder how their grandparents were able to learn anything in the one room school house where it was the same teacher for 8 years.... I'll guarantee you one thing... Any boy that has put in 2-3 years as a DC is going to be your next TG until he ages out! That is if he doesn't go back to being a DC in the meantime. Most of my best real leaders have started out as DC's. It's a natural for servant leadership, "take care of your boys", training. Stosh

Doesn't look like they're safe in church or school either. Kinda looks like practicing law seems to be secondary to the law firm. Stosh

2Cubdad, gotta remember it's a two-way street. UC's are often left out of the process until it's too late as well. As I mentioned, one of my units went defunct. They had a ton of adult leaders, many old-guard, no one wanted to step up as SM. I offered and was turned down because I was too much boy-led and this troop wasn't used to that. (See previous statement about a ton of adult leaders, many old guard...) With 30 years of experience and a pretty major bag of trick and even offering to take over as SM, needless to say they preferred to let the troop die than to do anything to save it. Ironically I started my new troop in the neighborhood adjacent to the south of their territory. It wasn't an either or issue, but when the unit went defunct, the district came to me and asked to start a new troop. So sometimes the UC's hands are tied and yes they are useless but not because they want to be. It is interesting to know that when I was removed as SM in my former troop, the DE had been on the job 3 months and a UC I had never in my life met with the committee to remove me, I would say that not only was the DE clueless, so was this novice UC. But they did have more experience than the CC who had been on the job for less than a month. That group did survive, they have at least a dozen boys, a SM and 6 ASM's plus a more than full committee. They now have more adults than boys in the unit and boy led is just a bad memory of days gone by. I'm sure there are a ton of very good UC's out there that because of the hassles they have to try and deal with just don''t have a snowball's chance in hell of doing anything for the Titanic situation facing them. It's unfortunate they get a bad rap for it. Stosh

It would seem on the Cub level the WDL and DL's seem to expect Pack personnel, Council personnel and Troops to pick up the slack and take their boys out camping. This is the whole problem that I was upset about 20 years ago. These DL's don't know how to take their boy camping because in many situations, they themselves have never camped. So how does the WDL get his boy's the AOL? Leech off the local troops. If troops are operating at proper Patrol Method style of program, there is no room for the Web II's unless they come and function as another patrol in the troop. Sure they share the troop activities, i.e. campfire, program, etc, but the functionality of the event with camping, eating, sleeping, etc. remains the responsibility of the Den, not the troop! So what they do is make sure every boy has a parent there to take care of them because the Web II DL doesn't want or doesn't know how to do it for the boys in camp. Whenever I hear the Cub leaders remind everyone that they don't need OWLS or BALOO, it only reinforces the premise from which I speak. "I don't need that training because I can always get someone else to do it for me. The troops will take my boys camping because they are interested in having them join the troop so they don't complain." In all sincerity, I would rather have the boys just come and camp and all these untrained, inexperienced leaders and parents can stay at home. Taking care of them, too, makes the job twice as difficult. Stosh

20 years ago when I was dealing with Webelos campers, I was pretty much on my own with it. No one else was Cub camping at all. I got flack from the Boy Scout leaders too, because they all said that the boys who were exposed to camping too early would be bored with it once they got to the troop. It was all a bunch of hot air as it would be today. The boys all went to Philmont, BWCA, Sea Base, three different summer camps and Eagled. This was also the time when I was the only one in the council teaching outdoor overnight Webelos skills. I quit after many years when the council decided that actually staying overnight wasn't necessary. It was a pretty much waste of time to teach camping skills to someone who has never camped and had no intention of taking their boys out into the woods overnight. After 20 years, things haven't really changed all that much. Stosh Oh, by the way, KOA camping with a Cub Scouting theme isn't really camping..... I could do that kind of camping in my backyard, but without a pool and game room, it wouldn't be as much fun.

When I took my Webelos on a two-day adventure where they canoed out to a primitive site on an abandoned island and the boys did their fun things. I explained to the council there would be canoeing involved but it would be father son in each canoe, they would be on an island with no facilities, but we would be prepared to handle that appropriately and I asked if I needed any approval from the council. The SE said, "No, but be sure to have a good time." So, either there were no council bans in place for such a trip or they didn't care what we did as a den. So we just followed his requirement and had a good time. Stosh

In a crew where girls are groped and the leadership does nothing is not a problem. Just call 911 and file an assault complaint. At least the leaders will now have to do something about it. Like either stand as witness or explain the negligence of not supervising properly. My people know up front that this solution in my groups is not an idle threat. If I learn of a girl or other boys being improperly assaulted and they don't make the call, I will. Once the police are on site, they can sort out the "he said, she said" issues. I also let the boys know that 14 and 15 year olds groping a 16 year old girl will be forever on the records as a child molester. Needless to say, I have never had to deal with this issue in 40 years. Either I'm lucky or no one has had the guts to challenge my rule of safety first... My reputation must really precede me. My wife and I were hosting a co-ed group in a large city on a youth convention. It was in a large city downtown hotel. I had a young man from a different group (same convention) approach me and ask if he might have permission to ask one of my girls out to dinner at the hotel and that if she accepted my wife and I were expected to attend the dinner as well. She said no, but I was totally impressed with this young man. Not many high school aged youth that operate on a class level as that. Stosh

Is the elderly a relative? Is the project on private property? Those two flags might be raised and the second would disqualify it as a community project. A wheel chair ramp up to a birding lookout at a county park would qualify. But I'm thinking this is dead in the water before it even starts. I'd say get the boys together in the troop, do the ramp and check it off as practice and a service project for the troop. Stosh

Don't worry, I don't let it get to me when I'm misunderstood. It is a common problem on forums. But just for discussion: (how's that for a neutral phrase?) Let's look at the patrol QM getting POR credit.... 1) Okay, let's dump the legalese minimum requirement to hold POR. 2) Any rank can hold QM including the assigned QM in the NSP. Yes even the NSP! 3) Now he's not yet FC working on Star so his POR patch means nothing for rank advancement. 4) He gets nothing but on-the-job training, PL/TG mentoring, working with an experienced older scouts including the troop QM, 5) Gets a chance to try stuff to see if it works, PL: "Where the Dutch oven you were supposed to get from the storage bin for tonight's supper??" It's not the end of the world, but the boy learns! 6) Gives him something to focus on for taking care of the boys in the patrol (leadership)..... yes, one can very easily lead from the QM position! It's ideal for servant leadership skill development! And he goes into his FC BOR and they ask him, "Now that you're working on Star, do you have any idea what POR you might want to do?" "Yeah, how 'bout the one I've been doing for the past year?" Leadership isn't just for the older boys! Every boy from Scout/TF through FC needs to experience POR responsibilities and given a chance to learn to lead BEFORE the SPL's going to hold his feet to the fire and count credit for advancement on it. How much of this thread talk is about dumping on scouts AFTER their 6 months of on-the-job training? Why wasn't that going on prior to FC? Oh, yeah, only your older boys get POR training. To me, that's a real waste of leadership training opportunities just because some kid shouldn't be wearing a POR patch until he's FC. Can you now see why I find it strange that I'm considered off the wall with this stuff because I don't have problems with boys earning POR credit in the higher ranks? As a matter of fact, it is so natural for these boys, many of them function in multiple roles later on in their scouting career, they have to journal their POR responsibilities for the BOR's The only requirement I have for a POR is the boy makes a commitment to be functional and not just wear a patch for 6 months. I have a boy right now in my new troop that has been functioning as PL for the past 4 months. He is Scout rank so his work won't count towards any POR advancement, but I don't see him as wasting any time. By the time he's FC, I'll have a fully functional PL maybe SPL ready to go, not training, no expectations, no hassle. It's totally unfair to the boys to have them sit around watching, when they could be doing hands-on training for these POR's before some leader flips the switch and now expects great things from them. Chances are, unless he's got some trump cards up his sleeve, it's just ain't gonna happen the way one expects it to. Stosh

Guys!, raising a question does not mean I am going to start a battle on which I have to win. I just ask the question and if for some reason it causes people to stop and ask further questions and to maybe even think on it a bit, it has served it's purpose. Immediately after asking the question, why not two buglers, it was discussed, echo taps, and shared responsibilities. So the question is valid and not locked in stone that one has to have only one bugler and it opened the awareness to maybe we can associate this further into other areas as well as bugler. Instructor is a natural, ASPL if the unit is big enough, QM? Big troop big job! What about a boy on the patrol level working as a QM? Does he not get credit for working with the other QM's of other patrols (QM PLC???) with the troop QM as the Chair (SPL of QM's?) If one has a big troop with a ton of equipment why shouldn't there be more than one QM? If I have a small troop with only one patrol and it has a QM how is that any different than 12 QM's in a huge troop? My only point being,.... we are all worried about giving opportunities for POR advancement for our boys and then why do we go and put some unnecessary rules and restrictions on who can serve in those positions? And heaven forbid if all the boys in the small troop all had POR's and they all worked together and that a huge troop had way too many POR's that things actually got done efficiently and effectively. Seriously? What kind of problems would a huge troop have if each patrol had a QM that kept track of their equipment and notified the troop QM when things weren't up to snuff? Why should they wait around for 6 months to a year for the QM to come check it out and make recommendations? It's a good thing that the Madison Scouts Drum and Bugle Corps doesn't have to fight over who gets the bugler POR. [h=3]Scouting and the Madison Scouts[/h] Throughout most of its history, the corps was an Explorer Troop (Post 600) of the Four Lakes Council. The corps was eventually reassigned as Venturing Crew 600 of the Glacier's Edge Council. In 2011, the corps was reassigned as an Explorer Post. Stosh

I had to read through this issue a couple of times to get my head around it. Okay, the boy is a pain, but he did not steal anything, just made a commotion. Witnesses from the other troop supported his not stealing, SM of that troop was way out of line and if anyone did anything wrong up to that point it was probably the out-of-control SM. Back home, there was a judge and jury convened to discuss a non-issue further. He's a pill. Okay, he agreed to a bit of "community service". But the punishment didn't end there. Ever since that time, other punishments have continued to pile on with the whole BOR SMC etc. signing off, etc. issue. Yeah, the dad is a bit over the top, but not really, because he has a point. When is the punishment going to stop and when is everyone going to quit piling more and more on to this boy. Okay, he screwed up with some bad choices. Over and done. A little penance, 3 weeks out? Why not make that 3 months or three years? But a heart to heart understanding with the boy would probably have been enough. Sorry, even though this boy is not a model scout, I'm going to stick with his side of the issue. A ton of hassle for "but was in a position where he appeared about to take something." For Pete's Sake, people, every conceal carry permit holder walking into a convenience store would be in that position! What "appears to be" doesn't mean anything in a real court of law. All I see is that a lot of people went way out of their way to show the boys exactly what real citizenship is NOT supposed to be in this country. My response to this? 1) Apologize to the boy for the over reaction on your part, not the part where he started the commotion. 2) Apologize to the parent for not handing it well. 3) Work with the boy to get him through his BOR including sitting in as an observer to make sure the vendetta is really over for this boy. 4) make sure he follows through with his penance as he agreed to. 5) Have a real SMC with this boy and discuss the value of the Oath and Law as it would have provided him protection from such hassles in the future and get a handshake on his honor promise he'll do better in the future. Then trust him and forget about it. This leaves the responsibility of correction where it belongs, not the SM of the other troop, not the SPL and PLC, not the SM nor his ASM parent, but instead on the boy himself. He screws up again, he hasn't a leg to stand on. Trust him and forget about it, the boy knows exactly where he stands. Stosh

Where does it say that there is to be only one bugler?.... oh, yeah, the same place that says there is only one Instructor, one Den Chief, one ASPL, etc. As long as they are functional with that POR, should they not get credit for it? Johnny got elected PL, but Joey did all the work. Who should get the credit? There needs to be a functionality credit for the POR, not just wearing a patch for 6 months. Or better yet, credit for doing the job regardless of whether there's a patch on the shirt or not. Stosh

I"m a SM and UC. I used to visit my units on a regular basis but of the three I got 1) Don't call us, we'll call you, 2) unit went defunct, and 3) on their email distribution. I keep track of them and interject help as needed. With them I have weekly contact, but not necessarily face to face. Stosh

A lot of this issue is also dependent on how one raises their child. My daughters were raised in a home where mom didn't want any guns or weapons in the house. Well, I had them. Today my daughters both have shotguns for home protection, one is conceal carry, if one wants their eyes scratched out, these are gals to mess with. Now that both are moms, I'd be even more careful. My children were not raised to be victims. If accosted, they will fight and fight to win. I have two really neat granddaughters. Both who will be gun-safety trained by their grandpa. In this day and age, it is not very wise to protect them from all the dangers this world has to offer, Instead it is best to teach them how to protect themselves from all the dangers this world has to offer. I can pretty much figure the police report will go something like, "Yes officer, I was attached by that bloody mess lying in the street over there." While one doesn't go looking for trouble, sometimes it comes along and how one handles it confidently makes a big difference on how well they will do in life. One of my daughters lives in Chicago and she grew up in a small town in the Midwest. I asked her if she felt comfortable with it and she said, "No problem, I avoid problem areas and know how to take care of myself." I guess one can't ask for anything more than that. I apply the training my kids got into that which my boys get in the troop. Because of this I have never had to concern myself with mandated reporter issues. Does that mean I don't have issues? Nope, but I don't report them, the boys do, it is how they protect themselves. Stosh

A .csv file is nothing more than a text file of records that separate the fields of the data with a comma. One can import the file into a spreadsheet or database but the file structure is pretty much just that, a database. If one wishes to make sense out of it they need the interface program that goes along with it. .CSV files are meant to transfer files between interface programs. You have the data, now all you need to do is write your own interface program and you're all set to go. It's doable, but you pretty much have to know what you're doing. Stosh

But councils and districts have no problem holding events on the Sabboth so that Sabboth Baptists, 7th Day Adventists and Jewish boys can't participate. Jazson G172 is correct, there are no weekends left. Stosh

If one has Jewish scouts or scouters, out of respect, I would move the event to another time. Yom Kippur is to the Jewish faith that Christmas/Easter is for the Christian. If one has the public involved in the activity, then one might also consider not holding it at that time. Surely most Christians would find it a bit disconcerting to have scout activities that ran from December 24th to December 26th. Just because one can, doesn't mean one should. Stosh

I'd target more towards the 10-12 per den. 21-23 people of that age in the room is difficult for a professional teacher to handle. A volunteer scouter is going to get eaten up and spit out. 21-23 boys - 2-3 dens. Stosh

Close, ... Yes the boys always lead all aspects of the troop, service projects, activities and fundraisers. The only difference with the Eagle project is the boy gets to pick a project that he personally has an interest in. A lot of the service projects the troop does is a consensus decision of which one. There might be one the boy wants to do and it never gets picked by the troop. Well HIS EP is his to choose. And because of this, I am the last person in the world to tell him he can't do it. I'll let a council committee tell him that. The experience of doing a lot of different service projects as he comes up through the ranks, allows him to formulate what he things is going to be HIS special project for his Eagle. IF his favorite service project is one the troop does every year he can take lead on it and fills out his book, that is his choice, too. Some of my challenged boys have done this and I find no problem with it. Stosh

I seldom "advise" on an Eagle project, but I do offer up suggestions they can take into consideration. Never have I had a boy take any of my suggestions directly but some have come close but taken a different slant based on their interests, abilities, etc. So in fact do they have to follow my "advice"? No. Do they have to follow a good bit of it? No. As far as signing the application. I sign it and have never read their write up for the project. I figure if it is poorly done, the review board will bounce it back. If not, they must think it's okay. I see my involvement as redundancy. I trust my boys to do a good job and so far none of them have ever been rejected. I did have one where the committee called me about one of them and I suggested they go back and talk to the boy about it. They did, they approved it, and the project got a half page article in not only the local paper, but also the state newspaper. He raised no money, built nothing, and benefited no living person..... Stosh

I no longer work on the Cub Scout level due to the changes in the program. What used to be a opportunity for young men to grow and develop a sense of independence and maturity, it is now a family bonding program that seems to work counter to the original focus of scouting. Young Men's Christian Association did the same thing and lost it's original identify along the way. Seems as if BSA is doggedly following that course as well. Stosh

Yeah, like getting one's Eagle rank without ever having had to start a fire, let alone with just 1 match as was the BSA tradition years ago. Stosh