Stosh

I don't expect my boys to fulfill, learn, retain, or become experts in any of the advancement requirements. However, I make it known to the boys that once taught they are expected to retain that information for future use. If not, then my participation in challenging activities will be restricted if not absent. If they want to find someone else willing to take them, fine, it's boy-led, they can make that decision, but if they want me, they're going to have to carry their own weight. It's their choice. It's not a matter of retesting, it's a matter of whether or not I want the hassle down the road. Stosh

Most medallions are expected to be nailed to the staff. The diameter is variable depending on how tight the nails are pounded in. The medallions are made of soft enough metal they could even be mounted on a flat board without a problem. If one is worried about the nail holes, they might want to consider forming the shape on the staff and then using liquid nails to adhere with. Stosh

Sounds like the typical CC who wants to run the show, but not do the work. She is also well entrenched so you're not going to ever win this one. Now one has to decide whether or not they can live under that assumption or not. It sounds as if one has an adult led troop going on right from the beginning. That's unfortunate because it takes years to move from adult-led to boy-led, but only a matter of minutes to move from boy-led to adult-led. Personally, from my viewpoint, unless new boundaries are laid out and adhered to, I would just walk away. For years I provided leadership as an ASM and did more for the boys than when I was a SM and had a target on my back. I'm sure Ms. Mom CC can find a new SM with the power she wields. Stosh

Unfortunately the Scout Oath (Duty to God and Country) and the Scout Law (A Scout is Reverent) both emphasize a focus away from oneself and instead towards others. If one's religious endeavors pertain only to oneself it fulfills the requirements for narcissism, but not the Scout Oath and Law. Stosh

I'm kinda with Sidney on this one. Dutch Ovens: When the the recipe calls for a 350-degree oven, how many coals is that? What about 375-degrees? Pizza calls for 425-degrees... What about wood? How does one adjust for wood? Okay we've done quiches and cobblers until they come out of our ears, what about something new? How do I take a home recipe for a 9X13 cake pan and adapt it for the Dutch Oven? What about baking rolls for the stew instead of store-bought? Can you do a cake in the DO? I have a crock-pot recipe, can I do that in a DO? I want to do a cheese cake for the DO competition, is that possible? When we packed the DO's in the oven last fall, they were just fine, but OMG they really stink, now what? Are aluminum DO's worth the extra cost? What size should we buy. Go with Lodge or an off brand? Why are some DO's deeper than others? Does any know if it's the short one or the tall one that is the baker Dutch Oven..... ?????? Okay, that's just Dutch ovens.. When was the last time anyone had homemade fresh blueberry muffins in the morning? Stosh

We don't have fire ants locally. But we do have ants. If one keeps away from plopping down their gear on an ant hill, they do alright. Mosquitoes are another thing. Usually they quiet down and are only a problem at sunrise or sunset. In Canada, they hang around all night long. If I know it's going to be a problem I toss in my netting, otherwise, just throw a clean shirt over my head and face and don't worry about it. If it's going to be a hot muggy night, then the only salvation is the netting. My full body netting can be stuffed into a very small stuff sack that doesn't weigh much more than the sack. I've had no experience with fire ants but if one tucks the netting under the bedding and seals itself completely, it might do the trick, I don't know. Stosh

My boys understand that they will learn more from their failures than they will from their successes. I always tell my boys that if one is to take care of others when they fail, they'll be needing help. If one has never recovered from failure, they have nothing to offer. Stosh

I'm a bit more up-front with my expectations. I let all my new boys know when they come into the troop that the words "I can't" aren't acceptable. If a boy is to be trustworthy, saying they can't do something before they tried is not building that trust. Then when it comes to excuses when it fails, ("I can't, because....") they don't count either. When things go awry, the comment is, "I guess you won't be doing it that way next time. So, what are you going to do now?" Just this past meeting, I heard my PL tell one of the boys, "Excuses don't get the work done. What do you need?" Kinda creepy coming from an 11 year-old PL. Stosh

So how much room do you need? I have tarp camped under some pretty small "tarps". Open ended pup tent sized, rain poncho sized, dining fly sized? Canvas? Nylon? A lot of different factors. I find canvas more weather resistant than nylon. Nylon is easier to cart around, not as durable as canvas. Canvas takes longer to dry out. There are just a ton of variables and most of them depend on personal preferences. I guess I more of a minimalist and can get by with just a small tarp, sloped to drain in rain, and no cot, just ground pad. If I go with the short cot I use the old WW II dog tent and if I go tall cot luxury, I use a canvas A-Frame style of tent. The Mrs. prefers the ground with nylon tent for privacy. Of course having spent 20 years in Alaska, her preferences are a bit more rugged than a lot of female campers in the "lower states". Stosh

Hedgehog, Not necessarily. One can coddle the boys and build their self-esteem, or we can challenge them and build their self-respect. Self-esteem = "I am a good person because everyone tells me that." Self-respect = I am a good person because I know who I am and what I'm capable of." I have often told my boys that leading from the back is always more powerful than leading from the front. Some of my best leaders have actually been the APL's. Instead of sitting around waiting for the PL to not show up, they are continually working the background, making sure everything is running smoothly because the PL is busy with the agenda. That team makes a good patrol. Stosh

I'm thinking the adults can justify this by putting the fire pit in the middle of all the patrols 300' apart...... Adults running the show can justify just about anything they want..... Stosh

2' long 1/4" piece of copper pipe. Hammer one end almost shut. Does the same thing but the volume of air is constricted enough to really blast and one can do the same thing, but not get winded. A gentle blow will do the trick because of the constriction. The 2' length is variable depending on how much you value your eyebrows. Stosh

When my buddy and I did Webelos outdoors, we did it for a number of years, just the two of us. The council didn't really put a whole lot of emphasis on Webelos boys camping at that point. Anyway the number one question the participants always asked at the closing session was "When did you guys cook the meals?" They were all served a lunch supper and breakfast and either my buddy or I were constantly teaching classes. However, we developed a routine whereby we could tell where the other left off and we switched out teaching and cooking throughout the day. Sunday morning was the opportunity to learn how we did it. That way they could cook for the boys and not interrupt the program with the boys. Now they expect the boys to participate more in the food prep, but the dynamics of what we were doing still would allow for younger cubs to have outings with as few as 2 adults. A unit as small as a den could have the boys out for fun and still get in the cooking seamlessly. Stosh

I quit looking at the messages, it's kinda like Lucy, a football and Charlie Brown. Stosh

"I'm using the camporee as an example of a general trend in the troop it's the only outing I have solid numbers for. As for letting them make that decision, I'm willing to, but I'm not the Scoutmaster, so I hope he will." Often a lot of the problems we face in running the troop, especially when it comes to attendance, is not a result of the scouts, but more often than not, the decisions of the adults. You are correct with your comment about letting the boys decide, but the SM might not go along with it. The over-riding decision by the SM can and more often than not have an impact on the scout's reactions. I fought with a former SM for years to let the older boys pick an event, but he wouldn't go along with it because the younger boys would be left out. He would wave that for Philmont and Sea Base, but nothing else. When the older boys would eventually come to the conclusion that nothings going to be all that much fun because we always keep doing the same-old, same-old, they either start working on their Eagle, skipping meetings and activities, or they simply quit when the SM insisted that they attend or he would withhold their Eagle. That's the reality of the situation, but the story that was told to anyone who would listen was the boys would quit because of sports, cars, girls or jobs. It was never the fault of a poor scouting program or it's SM. This troop was a classic example of an adult-led, troop-method program. I know of at least 10-12 boys that finished their Eagles in other troops because of this SM. I also know hundreds that simply quit, too. For the 13 years I was with that troop, no SPL or PL was ever elected. SM assigned SPL to the boy needing POR and then directed the SPL to place PL's in the pseudo patrols based on POR needs. It was totally irrelevant that these boys were functional, it didn't matter, the SM ran the show anyway. So, getting back to your comment, this is why I like the peer based patrols so they don't disrupt the others when they want to break away for something that interests them that the younger boys can't handle yet. My alterior motive in this set up is that I get to go on twice as many outings with the boys and when I go with the older boys it's more like a group of adults which makes it really enjoyable. Stosh

It's a lot easier to blame the scouts than take the blame for adult's poor decisions. Stosh

How does it work to insure other people's assets? Does your insurance company know that what you are insuring does not belong to you? When it comes to making a claim, it might be a bit late to be making that clarification. Stosh

Welcome BeverBean, don't let those on the forum sway what's working for you. Listen carefully, review your situation and maybe glean a bit of wisdom here and there to help you with your program. I on the other hand didn't have any earth shattering revelation from WB. I had been working with youth for a long time before WB. I also took the program under the old curriculum (1993). So with that being said, even the ranks of the WB participants are segregated. Those that are pre-2000 and those that took the "good stuff". At least they never bother me about teaching WB in the council, which suits me just fine. However, they do repeatedly ask me to come in and do various seminars on bits and pieces, but never to be on staff because I'd have to take WB 2000 again in order to do that as if the old program wasn't any good. Most of the time that's a good thing. Again welcome and I'm glad you had a good experience with WB. Stosh

The patrol method can be quickly undone by adults associated with a troop, but a poor PLC can do it as well. This is where the verbiage gets muddled and the discussion breaks down. If the SPL is running the PLC is he running the troop or just the PLC? A pretty well defined difference, but not always that obvious. So one has 6 patrols and 6 PL's and the SPL on the PLC. One can toss in a few more if they wish to muddy the waters a bit. The SPL takes a vote of the patrols and the 2 NSP patrols want to go to camporee. Of course, they've never been there before, it sounds great. The two middle group patrols go along because they still think it's okay and it's too much work to do anything else, so they vote that way too. However the 2 older boy troops have been to way to many camporees to feel that this one is going to not be any better than the same-old, same-old. They want to do something different. But they get voted down. Okay, can anyone tell me why the attendance at the camporee seems to have a loss of older boys when the two patrols decide there's something more important going on at home that weekend? So, you have mixed age patrols. Long before they get to the PLC the patrols take a vote and they all decide to go to camporee because there is a small minority of older boys in each patrol. They never have enough voting block to do anything other than the same-old, same-old. And so when it comes down to actually going, all the older boys have other commitments going on and as long as they always get voted down on anything really good anymore, they might as well miss the next half dozen events as well. Or just stay at home and work on the Eagle project so they can get back to hanging out with the buddies on the weekend. Now instead of having to come up with two events, camporee for the younger boys and something else for the older boys, All the patrols are affected by the blue flu. At least with the age based patrols there's a bit more flexibility. In my last troop there were three patrols NSP, a middle aged group and then the patrol of older boys. The two younger patrols went to camporee with my ASM and another adult, and I took the older patrol whitewater canoeing with another adult. Everyone ended up happy and overall attendance was great. I think only 2-3 boys out of 25 couldn't make it that weekend. Never, never, never, let anyone other than the scouts decide on the patrols and the leadership. and don't be surprised if they come back broken down by peer groupings. If one is going to have fun, they want to be doing it with their friends, not a contrived group that some adult said they had to have. There are a lot of troops that justify such actions because it's good for the younger boys to learn from the older boys, and a few other justifications, but when the dust settles I am never surprised by the exodus of older boys from most troops when they vote silently with their feet. Yep, Stosh is full of BS 100% of the time, but my retention percentage runs about 85-90% of the boys and about that same percentage on attendance at events. I have never had to stop and calculate how many events a boy showed up when it came to advancement. Most of my attendance problems are because of divorce/family scheduling. One of my boys missed summer camp this year because he was showing his cow at the fair and had made that commitment long before joining scouts. Heck, I get better attendance out of my scouts than I do out of my adults. But that's really not a problem because they are there most of the time just because of the 2-deep issue. I find that most boys learn by doing leadership rather than simply watching others. For the most part they don't pay attention until it's their turn and then it's too late and no one ever taught them, the adults were just assuming it was soaking in along the way rather than giving them an opportunity for hands-on leadership learning. With being a new troop, we don't have the "luxury" of a blended age patrol. All my boys are 11 years old, the PL, the APL, the QM, the Scribe etc. are all 11 years old. They're doing just fine and attendance this evening was 100% as was it last week and the week before. It's been over a month since one of the boys couldn't make it. Next winter when the new batch of Webelos come in, I'd be a fool to try and break up this group of boys "for the sake of the troop". Stosh

Reverse the roles. PL's are responsible for their patrols and the SPL doesn't manage the PL's he supports them. This spreads the leadership out into the patrols and out of the hands of an often inept SPL. No professional teacher would want to have a class of 70 students, but we expect our SPL's to "run the troop"? Good luck with that. And you point out the fallacy of the mixed - age based patrols. Just because they are all different ages doesn't mean they are homogenized... The reverse holds true just as well, Just because they are all 13 doesn't mean they aren't homogenized in maturity. There are a lot of people who make those false assumptions. In a same aged patrol they are all at differing maturity levels with their leadership development, and they are bonded as peer friends. Their peer group pecking order is pretty much established and so it is a natural setup for a patrol. You break up a group based on age, instead of maturity, i.e. let's put Johnny as PL of the younger boys so he gets a chance at leadership. That's fine and dandy, but Johnny isn't/hasn't been in leadership positions before because he has absolutely no interest in leading. This does nothing more than set the boy up for failure. I see it happen all the time. Freddie needs a POR, he's 13, make him a PL for the NSP. So Freddie's maturity level is that of an 11 year old. That'll work..... Be prepared to "mentor" Freddie through his POR because he's going to pretty much sit this one out. As you said, what's in it for him? Stosh

I've taken heat on the forum for promoting age based patrols, but if all the older boys are in their own patrol, one of them has to get off his butt and lead. Of course they're going to sit back and take a ride on the mixed patrols, they know they can dupe the young guys into doing the work. Seriously? If they won't lift a finger to help the young guys in their own patrol, what makes one idealistically think they're going to lift a finger to help anyone in the troop? Force them? Yep, that'll get quality leadership for mentoring the young guys. I hear your pain, it's difficult and every troop is different so there's no single dose of medicine that will fix your ills in your troop. Gonna have to figure it on a bit on your own. LOTS of dialog with the the boys should give you a fairly good idea of what is needed to make it work, but it's not going to all of a sudden be a exemplary patrol-method group with the snap of a finger. What I would do for the older boys is have the SPL assign them into the troop officer positions and then have the ASPL run that group as a "patrol" of their own. It should be the experienced boys that work with the patrol counterparts (mentor them) Troop QM works with the patrol QM's to make sure the equipment is there for them, etc. Troop Scribe works with the patrol scribes to keep up on the records and finances, etc. I would have the SPL assign the older boys first to the troop positions, but if they won't do the work and function in that role, give it to a younger boy and put the older boy out to pasture so he can focus on his Eagle and leave, that's pretty much what he's interested in anyway. Stosh

The "solution" also robbed the younger boys an opportunity to "pee on the fence". All the older boys take over as leaders and the younger potential "leaders" just sit back and go along for the ride instead of leading their peers. Oh, sure, someday they will be older and expected to lead, but they won't have had any experience. They get to start from scratch. I guess I would rather have my 11 year olds starting from scratch than my 13 year olds. I have also noticed that there are those who never lead, never get a chance to lead, get up in the ranks/age and are bored enough that all they want to do is get their Eagle and get out. The older boys didn't like it? Of course not. But in this day and age, what's good for the troop isn't always what's good for the scout. They will thus start looking for alternative programs that answer their needs, and not the groups. There are a lot of little things we do to discourage our older boys thinking that we are doing them a favor when in fact we are really interested in our own concerns, not theirs. One can play the numbers game all day long and it doesn't address the real problem. I have had a lot of outings where only a couple of boys showed up as a patrol for an activity. So? That's their problem to solve, not the adults who panic, start putting patrols together, playing with the numbers, etc. and it all looks good for the activity and life is good. Except how much harm did stirring the pot do? The 4-5 boys that didn't show are reminded that the troop can get by without them. Their attendance is not all that important, we can always work around it. Tell that to older boys often enough and they'll start believing it, and then next thing you know, they are focused on their Eagle and the door. There is a reason why Scout troops seem to lack older boys...... It's unfortunate that the troops don't know what those reasons are. JoeBob, You now have enough boys in each group to adhere to their patrol structure when they're in the woods. Does that mean all the others are no longer important? Don't think for a moment that my comment isn't valid, I have had a lot of boys over the years express their feelings in exactly those words. Don't worry, Johnny, you can miss the camporee, we have it covered without you.... Stosh

"As far as I see my role in this transition is to keep Adults from backsliding, and help the Scouts learn how to run the patrol method themselves. A crucial bit is getting the SPL who is very powerful in my troop to be willing to delegate authority down the chain to the Patrol Leaders." This is where I would start. First of all one person can't run a program with 70 people. Even professionals can't do it. One is foolish if they think this is happening. The first thing I would do is take all 70 boys put them in a room and when they have divided up in to groups of 6 to 8 boys and have selected one of them to be PL they can come out. That's your patrols. Then each PL is given total responsibility to run their patrol and nothing more. The SPL is to gather up as many ASPL's as possible from the older boys and they help the PL's and make sure they are successful. If the helping needs more boys, like a QM, TG, Instructors, the SPL gathers those people into his cadre of people. Whatever it takes to have the PL's succeed with their patrols. If one were to do this much, they would be well on their way to boy-led, patrol-method scouting. Top down management doesn't work with that many boys. Obviously from the loss of older boys in the program, this has already been identified. Stosh

I have a 6 The OGE announcement keeps popping up a new as well, stuff has kinda gone squirrelly. Stosh

If one were to read the requirement closely, it says have a SMC, it doesn't say anything about having to pass a SMC. Once held, have it marked off, if the SM or ASM refuses to sign off on advancement when it is obviously done, then there's something wrong with the system they are following. I don't know what recourse one has at that point, but it is obvious to all proper advancement processes are not being followed. I would go directly to the SM and ask for a SMC and instead of him asking the questions, have the boy read the requirement and have the SM explain why it is not being followed according to BSA policy. At least at that point one will know whether to go to another troop or not. Stosh