Stosh

Let your son decide where he wants to go, drive him to meetings of all the other troops in the area. Keep your mouth shut and listen to him. There is no "us" in this process. Scouting is his thing, he'll know what to ask. You're just along for the ride. Stosh

The BSA Whittler knife has a 2.25" standard curve blade, 1.5" standard curved blade and 1.25" flat blade. BSA camp knife is way too bulky and the blade is too wide for detail work. Same for most Swiss Army knives. When I was a kid, we started out by carving Ivory soap bars to get the technique down. Stosh

MattR, feel free to adapt the fun event to a more appropriate activity. I agree, the shotguns might be a bit overwhelming. Archery or .22's/.177 pellet guns might do just as well. The goal should be something they would enjoy, but the real focus is on the leadership challenges that get them there. BoomerScout: My 11 year old boys didn't know anything about fire building, setting up tents, cooking, tying knots, or anything else. But they did have their books they could research and they were all allowed to ask adults to demonstrate any skill they were having difficulty with. The adults are instructed in demonstrating skills rather than doing the work. They went off to summer camp and when they got there the BSA wall tents were all neatly rolled up and piled on the picnic table. They asked me how to set up the tent. We walked through it and they got the first tent all set up and ready for the week. I never touched the tent, stake or rope in the whole process. Once they got the first one up, they went over and set up the other two on their own. By Tuesday they were having difficulty with their fire starting for meals and asked for instruction on that. I helped them get the fire going and I didn't touch the stove, the wood or the match. From then on things went a lot smoother with the meals. I find the boys usually only ask if they have struggled for some time on their own and when they come and ask for help, I know they're really stumped. I also spend time observing the boys as to how they are doing. If they are doing it in an inefficient way, I mentally record it, but I don't step in and fix anything. Observing is just that observing. I keep notes that if the boys bring the subject up during the AAR, I can offer up some non-binding suggestions/observations that might benefit them. My advice is always just optional. My ASM was not on the same page as me when we went off to summer camp and was quite "concerned" about my approach. Yet by the end of the week she was totally on board. What MattR experienced in a weekend with the older boys, I got some very positive progress with my younger boys over the course of summer camp. But Matt could measure progress in hours. It took younger boys days, but some SM's prolong the process out by not letting the boys lead that they measure progress in years. That's unfortunate. What is kinda nice to notice is that being a new troop, I have emphasized that all boys are trained as PL's because if the troop grows all the current boys are going to need to step up to the leadership positions in the next few years. One of the boys flat out identified the problem... that means the patrol is going to have to break up and as soon as he said it, the discussion stopped and the room got silent. Even after just a few months, the bonding had been happening in the struggles and learning they had experienced. I'll let them think about that for a while, but they still hold the trump card. THEY decide who's in the patrol. If they teach other boys to be PL, they won't have to break up their patrol. Boys figure this stuff out a lot quicker than one gives them credit for. Stosh

Fred Johnson had the second quote Meschen.... but I could easily have said it, because it flows naturally from my first quote. Let the boys do their own thing, there are a lot of more important battles to be fought than who's in what patrol. Stosh

Luther's Small Catechism.... I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Spirit has called me by the Gospel , enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith." This ought to cover it for the Lutheran boys.... Stosh

The council office should have the forms that outline the requirements for the awards. Check with your DE and/or go on-line and check out these forms to see if what you have been doing qualifies you. Some are earned and some are awarded. Also remember that some of these knots can be earned multiple times. For Cub Scouts and again for Boy Scouts, then again for Venturing, etc. They have little devices to indicate which of the programs the knot represents. Stosh

One cannot change other people, only themselves. One has the choice, are they going to waste time trying to do that which is impossible to change or focus on what they can. If one has a good program then people will notice and at least check it out. Dragging young people kicking and screaming into a mediocre program can be a difficult proposition. Stosh

When is any of this solving any problems? Or could it mean nothing more than confirming what the scout is talking about when he says "On my honor...." Only those who have no intention of honoring their word have something to worry about. Has been that way since the inception of scouting, nothing's changed. Hmmm... how does one discern one's moral character without asking a few questions. So what duty does one do for Country when they aren't even old enough to vote, can't serve on a jury, run for office, serve in the military, etc. Is the SM supposed to hold a scout back because of this? What if the scout said he had no intention of ever voting, would rather sit in jail than serve on a jury, and would skip country if he were ever drafted? How is this any different than the boy who says he doesn't need a god because his moral code consists of staying one step ahead of the Law? And these boys can become Eagles.... Like I said, when is any of this solving any problems? Stosh

My patrols are decided upon by the boys themselves, the only "rule" is 6-8 members. Other than that, I don't spend any time worrying about it. If the NSP wants to stay together until they all age out, that's fine with me. If two small older aged boys want to recruit from the younger boys, okay. If two small patrols want to merge, okay. They seem to do well without any adult intervention. Patrols can recruit from other patrols, from Webelos cross-overs, and from outside scouting. If a boy wants to be a PL, he can campaign in any and all patrols. One holds PL office for as long as the patrol wants them to be. Someone could be a PL for the entire time they are in Boy Scouts either in one patrol or in multiple patrols over time. Stosh

Yep, we are boy-led, we let the boys learn from their mistakes, but they aren't allowed to jump the rails or go over the cliff. Why not? Absolutely right! (I even had one boy debate with me the usefulness of First Aid because he can call 911.) .... "and one can bleed to death before the ambulance leaves the station"... (and then the coup d'ete.... "and what if that person bleeding was your mother?") "Adults have to walk a fine line between pushing the boys and letting them do it. This past weekend we were camping on a sand bar (Blackwater River, FL) Had a nice kitchen set up on overturned canoes, and absolutely no where to hang a lantern. As I'm helping them with their tripod lashing, I'm telling myself "They should be doing more of this. Let them fail and learn from a sloppy lashing. But it's getting dark! We need to get this lantern in the air so that they can cook dinner before they fall over asleep." It's hard to stay balanced." So? They aren't going to starve to death by missing a meal...... It's not a matter of being balanced, it's a matter of sticking with the program. If the boys know the adults will buckle, they'll push that envelop first. Stosh

I agree with the idea that new scouts is like herding cats, and I don't have a problem with that. But how long that lasts depends on how one reacts to it. I had a shakedown weekend before summer camp with nothing but 11 year-olds. They couldn't get a fire started and problems with the food prep, but they did choose wisely, a ham and cheese sandwich is just as good as a grilled ham and cheese. All in all they were not focused, they didn't work as a team and complained about everything. We did the AAR at our meeting on Monday following the weekend. They aired their complaints and had a free-for-all for the first 15 minutes. I gave them the time to vent and then asked, who's fault was it? They unanimously said it was their fault and then the second question, "What are you going to do about it for next time.?" Once they realized the independence meant personal responsibility as well, they buckled down and got to work. They were 300' away from the adults at summer camp, still had trouble with cooking, but by the end of the week were doing fairly well. Camporee is coming up next month, they have the menu planned, the equipment is being organized now, they are heavy into popcorn sales to get money for more equipment, and are doing just fine. As a matter of fact even without older boys, they are doing just fine on their own. Like MattR's boys, once they get over the initial shock, they quickly shift into survival mode and figure it out rather quickly and it has nothing to do with maturity. Just like Matt's boys, they learned. Well an 11 year old can learn too, he doesn't need to wait until he's 14. That's all I'm saying. To think they are too immature to do so at a younger age in my experience isn't generally true. The ideas Matt identified, take care of your boys, what can I do to help, etc. are all implemented from day 1 in the NSP. I'm thinking that because they all learn to work together right from the beginning, they like to stay together as a group and don't dissolve the NSP at the end of the first year. Stosh

MattR, Want to do this for the troop? Take your younger boys and do the same thing, Once your 11-12 year-olds understand what your 14+ year-olds now know, you're 3 years ahead of the game. Yes, they are going to struggle a lot more, but they'll have a really good idea what high adventure is all about and what they have coming their way down the road and how quickly they'll get there if they know how the leadership game works. Don't under estimate the boys just because of their age. What you accomplished was basically C.O.P.E. on steroids. I have a new troop of 11 year-olds. We are doing the GBB training right now and mentioned that the QM was responsible for equipment and that if they were going to ever get through the TF requirement dealing with physical fitness, they were going to need a tape measure and stop watch. 3 of the 6 boys came with a tape measure and stopwatch app on their cell phone to the meeting last night. Some of these younger boys haven't learned the the negative attitudes of the older boys and are more open to getting on track correctly from the beginning. "One last observation is that the two patrols had scouts from 13 to 17 years old and they did great together. I asked them about having single age patrols and they said no. But they are leery of new/immature scouts. i.e., they're happy with anyone that understands teamwork but new scouts aren't mature enough. If I can figure out how to have a new scout patrol long enough for the scouts to mature it might solve a bunch of problems." This is a conclusion that is based on a false premise!!! NEVER underestimate the younger boys. It's not an issue of maturity, it's an issue of opportunity and learning skills. I often times seem more "maturity" in my 11 year-olds than I see in a lot of 16 year-olds. Once your NSP has an opportunity (earlier the better) like you have described for your older boys, the quicker the older boys will want to take them into their patrols if one wishes to do so. Otherwise, don't be surprised that by working together in team leadership, they may not want to join up with the older patrols. It's their call! What you found out is that the group that bonds with team leadership don't really like the disruption of reorganizing and tend to gradually move towards age-based because of it. Once group dynamics get established, they tend to stay that way. Stosh

My boys earned AOL as Web I. Just depends on your program. There was a really big time span between AOL and cross-over. They got AOL and left when they turned 10 1/2 or whenever they and their parents decided. Never really treated them as Web I and II. They were just Webelos Scouts. Stosh

A number of comments around this so I just picked Sentinel947 because he jumped in first. I don't have any authority or the power to decide who the real or fake scouts are. As with anyone's reputation, their actions speak for themselves. In the real world, the boys demonstrate with their lives how important that Eagle rank was for them. Some take it heart, some take it to the bank. I don't have to judge anyone, nor do I. It's a lot easier if they just judge themselves. My Godfather was a Marine in WW II, in the US Army in Korea, camped with my family every available weekend. Was one of the nicest people to ever walk the earth. I knew him my entire life and it wasn't until I read his obituary that I found out he Eagled in 1936. Do I have respect for the rank? Sure do. ....but do those who earn it have that same respect? It's not just the scouts either. I really don't have much time for the SM's who keep a tally of their Eagles as if it is some kind of Guinness record they're going after. Kinda like getting all the MB's. That's nice... but is it important? Everyone has to ask themselves how much judging they actually do when it comes to their scouts. I'm willing to bet they do a lot more than they give themselves credit for. FC scout should have the skills sufficient to take care of himself and others in an outdoor environment. So do they? In order to decide that one has to judge. I have a patrol of all FC scouts. Can I let them go out on their own without adult supervision as was the standard in years gone past? Again, to decide is to judge. Okay, hypothetically, I have 8 Eagle scouts in the patrol. They want to go on a non-adult outing for the weekend. So, what say ye? Refer back to the quote at the top of this post. It's rather easy to make the distinction and it has nothing to do with you or me, it hinges entirely on the boys and what they are really capable of. Are they real or fake scouts? Stosh

Kinda scary in a good way! It always reminds me of wiring a new house with the electricity turned on. Never know when or who's going to light up and shine, but it's gonna happen. Congrats to your boys, now all one needs to do is reinforce what they are already doing. So, how much direction did you have to give them, mentor them, ???? Probably no where near what you thought. Lay out the challenge and let them have it. This is one of the surprises I found when I started teaching leadership rather than just management. You teach leadership, they'll figure out the management on their own. Well done, Stosh

I wish it was that easy to get out of volunteering for stuff. I was old WB trained so they quit asking me for help, too. It's kinda nice, I can focus more on my boys that way. For months the district commissioner kept asking me to do all kinds of stuff when I was a UC myself. I just smiled nicely and didn't say anything. Finally she asked if she could be my ASM, because of my boy-led, patrol-method emphasis. I said sure, no problem. Finally she asked me "confidentially" why I kept turning all the invites down and I said it was because I was old-school WB. She said, "Oh..." And the subject has never been brought up again. Stosh

There are some of us in this society that spent 4 years beyond college in further education. There are some in this society that spend 2 years beyond college in further education There are some in this society that spent 4 years in college There are some in this society that spent 2 years in college. There are some in this society that have a high school diploma. There are some in this society that wrote in and got a certificate off the internet. Yet they are all called Reverend. Don't think for a moment that the Eagle program of the BSA produces Eagle Scouts of the same caliber every time. This dates well back into the early years of scouting when some were referred to as Parlor Scouts. The name changed, the problem didn't. The boys that get it right are called Real Scouts, that has always remained the same from the beginning, but there has always been the distinction whether we like it or not. A rose by any other name is still a rose. Stosh

Do it all the time.... It's a lot simpler than one thinks. Would it surprise anyone that with all the years of doing Dutch Oven/Cast Iron cooking, I have NEVER done a cobbler! My ASM had to help bail me out with teaching the boys because the summer camp menu had cobbler on it and she thought maybe she knew how to do it, so that was more than I knew, so she got the job. Now chocolate chip cookie cheese cake, I can do.... but not cobbler. Stosh

Fresh baked anything tastes better than peeling the plastic off before eating.... Stosh

Yes the assets are the CO's as well as the funds, but will the confusion lie in who owns what if there is ever a claim? We have enough confusion WITHIN BSA as to who owns what when it comes to the CO's. How is an insurance company ever going to sort it out? Stosh

I find it strange that in the area where I live, there are a lot of people who pay good money to participate in outdoor clubs and educational opportunities that deal with agriculture, forestry, nature and other purely outdoor activities. They also pay for it for their children as well. There was a recent article in the newspaper, with pictures and everything about a new program the school was developing in the area for youth. It looked remarkably like a standard scout hike incorporating a bit of 10 plants and animals. The parents and students raved about how great it was.... Duh! Let families do what they do best, let the schools do what they do best and have BSA stick with what it does best. I'm just not seeing that happening with today's focus in Scouting and it's doing a lot of harm to it's effectiveness and tradition. "Because you are focusing on the morally straight more then the mentally awake park. And this program neglects the physically strong aspect." - StOut717. A bully can be mentally awake and physically strong. While a balance is promoted in BSA, Leaving out the morally straight part is not something I want to promote while volunteering for the BSA. There are a lot of people today saying that Public Schools are neglecting the moral compass and they're seeking alternatives to that program as we speak. Private schools and homeschooling are becoming quite popular, at least around here. It generally runs 20-25% of my scouts are home/private schooled. Has anyway for the past 15 years. They get plenty of STEM, but they seek more of the moral/social/leadership development of Scouting. Don't see any reason to just add more STEM to that. What they get in the STEM area elsewhere far exceeds anything BSA is going to develop. While there's nothing wrong with a heavy dose of STEM in the appropriate programs, I just don't see the focus of BSA as it has been historically as an effective vehicle for it and seems to be kind of counter productive to their goals. Stosh

While I tend to think in terms of what would be considered "old methods or materials", I still believe in the premise of character building, leadership development and self-reliance. STEM projects benefit the knowledge base of the individual and can do so without the inference of anyone else other than the instructor. How does science, technology, engineering and math develop one's moral compass, duty to God and country, helping other people could conceivably be stretch and torqued to fit a bit. What about servant leadership development? I guess I just don't see those premises promoting what made the scout program what it was and now seem to be stretching even further into a lab/classroom development program that for the most part I would think experimental life lessons of the boys would want to shy away from. Sure we can stretch these basic learnings into the scouting program, but why? They will get a lot more of that in the academic education setting. One does not need character, leadership and self-reliance to be a good scientist, technician, engineer or mathematician. It would help these people to have a non-academic program that would enhance those developmental dynamics to make them more well-rounded, like maybe scouting. Stosh

One of the things one figures out early is that every leaders' style is unique to that leader. How they perceive the program, how they implement it, how they measure success all varies from one person to the next. What one person success is another person's standard expectation. Heck, at my age, getting out of bed is a major success on some days. There are those who find one person's style as "different" because it's not the way they have experienced it or gotten positive results out of. And what that other person is doing, because of his style, is successful at it whereas another person because of their style will not be successful attempting the very same thing. So toss in a dose of judgmentalism and one has the basis for a lot multiple pages on a forum such as this. What one often fails to take into consideration is that the program remains pretty constant, but how each of us approach it is quite different. What always befuddles me is that when someone proposes how they approach a situation is sometimes challenged. Scouter A is having a problem. Scouter B explains how he/she is doing it and not having the same results. Scouter C, on the other hand, says that what Scouter B is doing won't work. Why? Maybe it won't work for Scouter A, but it is working for Scouter B. So why would Scouter C offer up discouragement. Why can't Scouter A give it a try, if it doesn't work, he/she isn't out anything and Scouter C might have been better off suggesting a second alternative instead of discouraging Scouter B's comments. I have success with age-based patrols, others don't, but they have success with mixed-patrols. So which is better? It doesn't make any difference which is better. But if a newbie to scouting wants to know which is better, he/she's going to have to try them both because one or the other will most likely work better for their leadership style. Does that mean that one is better than the other? No, it just means that when one gets out into the trenches they need to be prepared to try a variety of different options until they figure out which one works best for their boys, their situation and their leadership style. UC's especially need to be aware of this when they assist with their assigned units. There are those units out there that are Eagle Mills that turn out Paper Eagles all over the place. To some that's a successful program. There are Eagle Mills that turn out fantastic Eagle Scouts on a fairly regular basis. To some that's a successful program. There are troops that do a ton of high adventure, but turn out very few Eagles, some paper, some not. To some that's a successful program. There are troops that struggle and just hang on, but each year, they get better and more boys sign on. To some that's a successful program. So who's to judge what is successful for everyone? If someone ever figures it out, let the rest of us know. Stosh

You've done everything else, why not step down and be either your son's Webelos DL or ADL so he has a good year and then cross over as soon as he is able. The pack knows the handwriting on the wall, might as well focus on what's important and let it go at that. Stosh

Sorry, but if this becomes a rank requirement, it will be readily pencil whipped in order to not waste time getting out into the woods. Stosh