Stosh

The best one I ever experienced was my first parish where one of three churches had 65 members. Piece of cake to remember names.... Except they were Norwegian names and at first I didn't know if they were male or female names. Add to that I told them I had to memorize 65 names and they only had to learn one. So please keep introducing yourself and tell me something about you to help me remember. Well for two months this one group of people I just couldn't keep straight. A guy would introduce himself and then point out his wife. Okay. Got that but then later that lady would point out the "husband" as her brother-in-law. This confusion went on and on until one day I flat out told these people I had no idea as to who was married to whom and who belonged to what family. As it turned out 4 sisters married 2 pairs of brothers, so my brother was also my brother-in-law and his wife was also his sister-in-law. Loved it, it was the best practical joke ever pulled on me because these people had this down pat to where no one ever smiled or giggled, but were dead-pan serious throughout. I would suggest for the larger troop, name tags! It works wonders! If there are situations where SM's clearly don't care to learn the names of their boys, that's their loss. But I would think that would introduce a lot of problems along the way. Stosh

I've been thinking about this since Karen first posted and reacted. There's a couple of dynamics going on here that need to be pointed out. The people who have been on here for a while have sparred with each other knowing a bit of history acquired each time they lock horns, so to speak. The new people on the block don't know this information and are often caught off-guard by the "answers" they get. Without body language and facial expressions, a lot of what is said is misinterpreted. (One's sarcasm isn't always obvious and can be seen as a major slam.) Sometimes people post in the hopes that what the reaction they are giving can be validated by other scouters. Well, people on this forum don't agree on much of anything very often so that's not going to go well the first time into the fray. Then there are the new people who are new to internet forums to begin with. They might have been part of some chat-room experience, but those people change every time one logs into a chat room. Here they hang round forever. I had years of forum experience before joining this one. I can assure you that this forum is 95% more benign than many of them I have been on and even tried to moderate. Civil War History forums.... I can assure you the war is far from over. Score: Blue 1, Gray 0.... Half-time. Before I respond, I look at the join date and the # of posts they have put out there. That information tells me I need to be clear and specific, assuming nothing and explaining everything if I have any real attempt of being helpful for them. Yes I treat my older scouts differently than I do my NSP boys. So: NSP people. Collect up all the comments, find which one might work for your unit. then toss the rest of them into the BS bin. (For you Cub Scouters out there that's not the Boy Scout bin.... ) There are some things out there that I know won't work for my troop, but could work for some others depending on their situation. Some of the things people are struggling with are things I seem to have avoided by the way I do things, so I offer those experiences up for them to consider too. It is up to them to decide whether or not it has any validity for their unit. I'm not offended by anyone saying my idea won't work in their situation, because when all is said and done and the dust has settled, if it has worked for me, that's all I really care about. Your mileage may vary. Stosh

Ministers can retain the names of hundreds of his/her parishioners. A SM if he cared to do so could keep a handle on a couple hundred boys. Stosh

There are a ton of wall tents out there that have stove vents in them for the purpose of having a wood burning stove inside the tent. One can buy them brand new yet today, this is not something unique only to older tents. Stosh

Okay, try this on on for size. Scout Sunday is also Communion Sunday. Are the boys expected to refrain from their religious practice because they are in uniform or do they not wear their their uniform on Scout Sunday so they can have Communion? If one were to sit down and ponder every situation, they could probably find a problem with every rule someone comes up with trying to solve a problem. Stosh

Okay, I went back and carefully re-read the opening comments on this thread. Karen posed a perfectly legitimate question to the forum. No problem with that. KDD responded as trying to be helpful. I read and re-read his comments multiple times and found them to be pretty benign compared to some he puts out. I didn't seen anything in there that would have evoked the reaction Karen came back with. With her being a newbie on the forum I'm thinking what KDD wrote and what she read were two different things. I'm all in favor of cutting a bit of slack for the new people because they haven't had a chance to really get to know the styles of responses everyone gives on the forum. Nor does she know the backgrounds of many of the people here. Over time we pick up on those things and somethings are better because of this and something things are worse. I'm thinking that there are some of us here on the forum that post things because we have a bee in our bonnet to start out with and sometimes helpful advice isn't received as such. I'm angry, mad, frustrated, disappointed, or whatever that bee may be, and I want someone out there to validate my feelings. When that doesn't happen, we immediately cast those people into the camp of those causing the hassle. That's not always fair, but it does happen. I'm hoping that Karen finds the answers she is looking for in the ton of comments made by everyone. Stosh

Someday I may get in trouble for it, but I really don't care if they don't know the Laws in the correct order. I sometimes look the other way when they substitute a different word or phrase. But I hold them accountable for knowing the 12 Meanings of the Laws and practice them. If someone promises something and doesn't come through the verbal tongue lashing he gets is "A Scout is Trustworthy" and the subject is dropped until SMC. By then a ton of water has gone over the dam, tempers are cooled down and I have had a chance to think about what to say that is more appropriate and the boy can learn from the situation. Stosh

Thanks TAHAWK, I didn't think it was required and I have never heard of anyone getting out of shape about what's on them or not on them. My boys were toying with the idea that all the neckers be a plain color and each patrol have a different surged trim color. From 20' away they all look the same but up close one could ID the patrol as well. Didn't know if that would fly, but then with the necker being optional, I'm sure no one's going to say anything. I didn't know what to advise my boys if they should happen to ask. Stosh

We were told at roundtable this past week (District Chairman is on the national committee) that it was going to be annually now. The presenter about the new program changes said that not the District Chair. I do it anyway, but it's going to be a bit tough getting everyone on board every year. Stosh

Has YPT gone to an annual recertification? Stosh

What's the criteria for a neckerchief to be allowed with a uniform? Hot debate at roundtable this past week. Does it need the fleur-de-lis? or some scout insignia of some sort or can it be just a plain color? maybe a tartan? I know it doesn't need to be triangular, it can be square.

And yet I knew a lady who was disabled who pastors over many years would not "confirm" her in the church. No one had ever tried working with her. I got her to memorize the entire Lutheran catechism which was one of the requirements and a couple dozen psalms along with a number of other Bible passages of her choosing. I called it enough and confirmed her. Other than the bible verses, she knew little or nothing of what the words meant, but she had a vague enough understanding to try and explain it to me. It was enough. I confirmed her one Sunday in front of the congregation and no one challenged it. I also had a Life scout who still struggled with the Law and Oath after 30 years. At 42 he was still working on Eagle. Somehow I didn't see any problems with the process. He knew what all 12 Law meant, he just couldn't put them in order or remember all of them at one time. Ask him one at a time, he could give a satisfactory answer to any of them. Stosh

My earlier post is what blw2 suggests, break it down, it will surprise oneself, and then advertise to everyone else what you found out. It's not cheap. I ran a Venturing crew that basically started out at +$1,000 to get started and that didn't cover the activities which could range up there as well. My troop is now heavy into popcorn sales with a major push to raise money for the new troop. No ISA's and this basically covers it for the year if they do a good job. Last year the boys all paid $50 for summer camp, the troop covered the rest out of the fundraising activities. The boys will always have to pay something for every activity! They all need a little skin in the game. The "agreement" we have with the parents also stipulates that this money needs to come from their effort, not mom and dad's pockets. It can be gift money from Christmas and birthdays, but it has to be the scout's money. Everyone seems to be quite happy about the arrangement. Haven't had any complaints or concerns expressed. Stosh

Memorization is not as difficult as people make it out to be. Most people, even those with cognitive impairments can recite back their parents' names, address and phone number without too much difficulty. If one wishes to "memorize" something every morning and evening just read it through. Within a month a person should have it memorized and didn't "memorize" it, simply read it to themselves repeatedly. If one just sits down and forces themselves to memorize something it is far more difficult. Stosh

As SM I guess I'll not be able to mention the 12 Laws during the SMC because they all apply to my faith. That's too bad. Stosh

Campfire and popcorn? Burgers and malts? whatever it takes. I just hope that the AAR with your boy included the caveat of learning from other people's mistakes. When your boy gets into situations like this he'll handle it with a sense of empathy and sensitivity no other leader can provide. It's a tough lesson to learn, but an important one. Stosh

When we do a lump sum / year approach to this issue, the $ amount sounds kinda high. Instead of a flat fee of $XX.XX why not break down the expenses and show that what you are asking for is reasonable. How many parents out there really know the cost a Pinewood Derby car? or a swim outing, or whatever else it is the pack is providing for that cost. I'm thinking that a $XX.XX take it or leave it approach will open the door for some of the parents to opt for the leave it choice. At FOS they come up with some arbitrary number of how much it costs to get a boy through scouting per year. Start with that number, then add registration, insurance, Boy's Life, awards, books, projects, PWD cars, outing fees, B/G expense, etc. all broken down so the parents can actually see what BSA is paying for, what the fund raisers are paying for, what the CO is paying for, and what the boy's family is expected to pay. One can add in the new necker, book, etc. and uniform costs as well so that the parents know up front before they even make a commitment whether or not they can even afford to have their boy in scouts. I'm sure the committee treasurer can sit down and make up that brochure rather easily and no family gets blindsided by a "Mr. Smith, you have to pay $50 dues to the pack." especially just after they had an announcement on how successful their popcorn sales were for the year. I don't think anyone would balk at paying what's due, it is just kinda hard to pay with a significant check for something one knows nothing about. At every business these people go to, they get an itemized receipt of what it is they are paying for before they leave. I don't think it's too much to ask to provide the same courtesy to our boys' parents. Stosh

If your boys are still hanging around, then you haven't destroyed the troop. Sorry about the cross-generational expression. I don't always follow the Valley Speak, Ebonics and Texting Codes very well, and I guess I shouldn't expect the younger generation to understand the older slang. Holding one's feet to the fire is holding them accountable for their actions. What a lot of people don't realize while they are in the middle of a situation they don't always see solutions. Those on the outside looking in who don't have the pressure of the situation often see things better and can offer up alternative solutions to try. Don't worry too much about the adult-led bailouts, parents are notorious for them, caring, dedicated people are notorious for them, people who don't think the boys should have their self-esteem disturbed, are notorious for them. Jerk leaders that force the boys to actually function and produce results are aware of the dynamic and will stand their ground and let the boys struggle. No one really likes you while that is happening, but everyone of the boys will someday thank you for it. Basically what they realize is that you are treating them like an adult, the thing they complain about the most about their parents and teachers. My boys know this stuff because once they pushed the envelop and it didn't go well. They now have a tradition that one doesn't push envelops unless they know what they are getting into and basically the common lore amongst the boys is, we tried that once, didn't work very well, but if you want to put up with the hassle go for it. It goes along way towards not repeating the same mistakes over and over again. Be sure to never hand out brochures on any fun activity out there the boys might want to be thinking about. They might have some pictures in there that taunt the boys and show them what they are missing. I'm sure showing them pictures of other scouts who have their act together would just make them glad they aren't going. I go to great lengths to constantly research new recipes to do on outings. Do I do that to make the boys feel bad that they are settling for hot dogs and pop tarts? My new troop is getting ready for fall camporee and want pizza. They are all new Webelos crossovers from last spring. After a long drawn out discussion on how they are going to pull that off with a Dutch oven, one of the boys came up with the pudgy pie alternative. Crisis averted, feelings soothed over and it sounds like it would be kinda good. Better than boxed mac/cheese with hotdogs in it. Do I get a cape with that title? I discipline my boy on occasion. I just find I don't have to do it very often. A 16 year old joins has problems, the boys usually straighten him out on their own. Bullying and hazing? They get an annual refresher ever year on the topic every time we take on new scouts. Anyone participating in bullying and hazing is out of the troop, no questions asked. Rule #2 in our troop is Look and act like a Scout. Once you get 30 - 40 years in you'll have a pretty good handle on what works and what doesn't. Until then just keep learning. I don't imply anything on this forum. I try to express it as best I can and for the most part everyone's agenda does a fine job of messing it up. I didn't imply you were doing it wrong. I only offered another suggestion you may want to consider. Others on this forum do the same thing. The "solutions" may sound like total opposites but in one troop they work great and the same thing in another troop would be disastrous. People define things different and have a whole mixed bag of expectations for the boys in the program. In my situation I find that what I do goes along way to expedite the leadership learning. I've dealt with small troops 5-40 boys over the years and have no experience or desire to work with a larger troop. More power to those who do. What I do with my boys is try and get them to a functional level of leadership as soon as I can, which tends to be quite early in the program. This way I don't have the hassle of waiting until they get older and have an attitude about it. I had a school teacher explain it to me once. Grade schoolers (Webelos crossovers) are like sponges and soak up everything you put in front of them. They are avid and excited learners. When they get to the middle school years they basically lose their brains. Nothing in, nothing out. Then the high school years they get their brains back.... with an attitude. If I can get that leadership learning process of taking care of your boys and watching out for others, get the program in their hands, set them on the right course,etc. etc. right from the get go, it avoids a ton of problems down the road when they lose their brains or get them back with an attitude. As a last note. Another scout leader with 2 sons and I with one son went up to the BWCA with my brother (another scouter and his son) who was well versed in the process, to learn how to take up the troop up there. We were told the fishing was lousy by both guides as well as the bait shop people. We didn't want to drag a weeks worth of food in so we went quite light on the grub. My brother, son and I fished the shorelines and the other scouter and his 2 sons fished the reefs. Every day we both caught enough for everyone to eat that night thinking the others may not have been successful. We had a ton of fish to eat and with foraged greens and cattails we had plenty to eat all week long. I wouldn't have tried that with the troop, but a small group (patrol of older boys) can do just fine and have a great time. Stosh

Lodge activities are only as good as the people leading them. Stosh lesson for leadership: "Take care of your boys." Please explain to me even one small iota of leadership from this lodge. Please explain to me even one small iota of "Helpful", "Courteous", or "Kind" in this situation. If this situation had been my son and I, the evening would have been spent with him and I spending the night at the campfire splitting a bowl of popcorn and talking about how life works instead of heading off for some OA thingy. We are known by the company we keep. Stosh

Why would the ownership of earning awards not be on the scout instead of parents and DL's? After all isn't he responsible for doing the work to get the award? I'm thinking that's maybe what scouting is all about. If not done properly, one would have the parents and SM jumping through hoops trying to get Little Johnny's Eagle project turned in at the last minute and we all know that never happens. Stosh

Judge not, lest ye be judged. - It would seem I must set aside my duty to God to do my duty to BSA????? Stosh

Maturity and character development is dependent on making choices. My boys (Boy Scout level) make their own calendars and set their own activities. If there are conflicts with other programs they are aware of them and make the adjustments. If the boys made arrangements around all of their schedules, there would be no room for scouts. So it's up to them to make it work. On the Cub level, to a certain extent the same hold true. I always say, Church Family and School take priority and it's up to the parents to figure out whether they want their boy in Cub Scouting. If they do, they'll find the time. Stosh

It always amazes me the terminology we use incorrectly. There are no ranks in Cub Scouting. They can, if they wish earn an award (Wolf, Bear, Webelos, AOL etc.) and extra bling (arrow points) if they so choose. They can progress through Cub Scouts and never receive any awards along the way if they so choose. It would be correct to say that the only ones that feel it necessary to measure their success in the program seems to be the DL's. OMG, what if my boys don't get their awards, what if they come, have fun, screw around, waste time and have a blast doing so? I must be a total failure as a DL. Why aren't the parents busting their butts helping these boys get their awards? Woe is me! Hello, people. Fun is for everyone, but awards aren't. If Little Johnny doesn't get his bead and everyone else did, is it Little Johnny's fault he didn't care one way or the other, but thought it okay his buddies who worked for it got it? I kinda thought we were over this "Participation Award Self Esteem Building" process as not producing the results we wished for. I think we as Scout leaders need to do more focus on good programming that is fun and less time on letting the boys know how disappointed we are that they didn't get some stupid badge. It's not a punishment if one doesn't get an award. It's not the fault of anyone if one doesn't get an award. The success effectiveness of a DL is not measured in how many patches he/she gets to hand out at a pack meeting. Quit worrying about the patches and start worrying about the boys having fun. Stosh Forgot to mention: When I was Webelos DL, as the basis for my program, I used the pins. I worked them into the activities that we were doing. It worked really well until one pack meeting when the CM, who was handing out the pins/patches, asked one of my boys what he did to earn the pin he was handing out. Seriously, the boy had no idea. It was the Readyman pin. I called out from the back of the room, Little Johnny, tell him about the first aid you learned about. I figured if the CM (really good friend of mine) could embarrass me, I could do a turn around is fair play. After several minutes he finally had to interrupt the boy and send him back to his seat so he could go on with the awards ceremony. There are ways to incorporate the two processes into one.

Sitting through a worship observance of others and being "polite" so as to not walk out or laugh, isn't an issue of A Scout is Reverent, it's an issue of A Scout is Courteous. But then doing one's duty to God sometimes might be being polite. I'm not being argumentative, it's just that maybe we aren't even talking reverent here. Because doing one's duty to God encompasses all 12 Scout Laws, to pick one out as being particularly relevant and the others not is very strange way of looking at them. It might be interesting for someone to point out where one of the 12 Scout Laws does NOT apply to doing one's duty to God. The only real problem I have with the subject of this discussion is when people get wrapped up in the minutia and can't see the forest from the trees. Arguing that A Scout is Reverent refers only to one's religious faith is like saying A Scout is Courteous refers only to certain kinds of people, like maybe your younger sister doesn't count. Breaking it down to that level of granularity only opens the door to judgmentalism and abuse. I guess I'm not willing to go down that path. Stosh