Stosh

No matter how much lipstick you put on it, it's still a pig. Stosh

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Venturing/About/history.aspx C'mon, I was a Bobcat in the 1950's Stosh

There's a simple solution to this whole thing without having to resort to a whole new organizational structure, double committees, and separate advancement hassles, etc. etc. Patrol-method troop. Let the older boys have their own patrols, call them something like... let see.... Venture Patrols? They aren't co-ed, but they accomplish the same thing without having a forced mass exodus of older boys or even an open door for them to "move on" to bigger and better things out there. Why not just cut to the chase and have the bigger and better inside the troop? And so Stosh takes another one for the outcasts.... Young boy patrols (grade schoolers), regular patrols (Jr/Middle school boys) and then the older boy Venture patrols (high school). But of course we can't do that, we need to have mixed patrols!!!! WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT? If the troops won't design a program within the troop to keep all boys interested, National will step in and do it without them. One can have a nice program all within one unit without having to jump through a ton of paperwork, volunteers, programs, multiple uniforms, dual registrations, and other general headaches along the way. The tools are there, they've been around for 100+ years, use them. To me, this sounds a bit like it ain't broken, don't fix it. For those who think the younger boys don't have the brains and maturity to run their own patrol, here's last Monday night's scout meeting. 6 boys all 11 years old except one who just had a birthday, he's 12. One of the boys said he just qualified as black belt in karate and won't be able to make scouts anymore because of the scheduling conflict. The boys though about it for a while and then decided they would now start meeting on Tuesday nights. I have an 11 year old PL who has taken seriously Stosh's Leadership training program. "Take care of your boys." He's the one that told me the patrol will be meeting on Tuesdays from now on and why. I have had 15 and 16 year old boys who would never have come up with that solution and would have simply wished the boy good luck with his karate. Stosh By the way. What if I had 16 boys, 2 patrols. Does that mean I may have to have one patrol meet on Mondays and the other one on Tuesdays? How is this any different than 1 CO having 2 units without the hassle of multiple leadership structures, programs, etc.? How would that disrupt the "troop"? So for the big events, camporees, outings, summer camp, they come together... It can work and will work a lot easier than doubling up on a ton of organizational structuring.

We have heard the Lions has been bantered around... That's no surprise. It was unclear and I didn't get a definite answer, but boys may be able to stay in Boy Scouts until 18 and Eagle as a Boy Scout rather than as a Venturer. Venturing isn't really set up to promote the Eagle program per se. That would also mean the boy would need to be Life by the time he's 14 as well??? How does he track his requirements otherwise? We got this preso and no real answers. This is why I kept it in the Rumor column even though it sounded like it was kinda legitimate considering the push from Council. Stosh

Our District Chairman is on the national committee. Preso was made by Training Chairman at our last Roundtable. Same preso that said YPT would now be an annual recertification. No, we are not a pilot program. The Venturing age was still 21 according to the preso. Stosh

Am I to assume this is the new structure for the BSA program? Lions - Kindergarten Tigers - 1st Grade Wolves - 2nd Grade Bears - 3rd Grade Webelos/AOL - 4th Grade (one year) Boy Scouts - 5th-8th Grades Venturing* - 9th-College *Option to Eagle prior to 18th birthday, open to boys only that were Boy Scouts previously. They flat out said in the preso on this, the "older boys don't really want to associate with the younger boys anyway...." AT LEAST THEY GOT THAT PART RIGHT! I've been preaching that and taking heat on it for years. I heard rumors that Venturing top age may drop to 18 because BSA will have difficulty registering homosexual "boys" who are of adult age. So, what rumors have you heard? Stosh

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. "They have very different personalities...." This should allow the pack member a viable option then and recruiting should be relatively simple. I'm thinking it may be more of a turf war than actually looking to find what's best for the new boys. It sounds a bit like what the new recommendations are for the BSA program coming out soon. Boy Scouts 10-13, Venturing 14-18, with an emphasis on moving boys to Venturing rather than have them stay in a troop until 18. They would still Eagle, but as Venturers. Sounds like a major can of worms, but it would work for a CO to have at least one of each so that they could have multiple Crews to handle the situation kpmcateer is experiencing. Stosh Stosh

1) Okay, think about it. How much food did you get on the OA ordeal weekend? Knowing that the adults can relax. 2) If the adults bailed out the boys because they forgot a key ingredient, or a meal, surely they are going to expect the adults to bail them out if they don't bother to get food at all. But if the boys didn't get back up from the adults and missed an important ingredient or a meal, the last thing on their mind would be not having something to eat for the weekend. 3) I don't make a very good Chicken Little. Stosh

First of all this situation would never have happened in my troop either because long before one got to the worse case scenario, we would have dealt with the issue of no food well before it got this far. I have had GM's forget a cracker barrel or some ingredient for some meal or maybe a whole meal, but not ever having no food at all for the weekend. So the GM screwed up Saturday night and doesn't have any food for that meal. It's up to the PL and GM to work it out. They have first option to solve their problem. It's a patrol problem, not a troop problem and definitely not an adult leader's problem. If the boys are well versed in basic problem solving, a good skill for leaders to develop, then that's all the further it gets 99% of the time. Remember these are the older boys, they should be able to handle this. Heck, on any given outing, I have more food smuggled into backpacks that they really don't need much food for the weekend anyway. That 1% of the time they then approach the SPL who's another head to work on a solution. (SENIOR PL, meaning he has the experience and may have faced a similar problem like this before.) I'm thinking that in reality most troops bring far more food than they eat anyway so a bit of passing the hat or having the patrol split up a bit to cover the meal would be a valid option. My boys would be mortified if they had to go to the NSP and say as leaders they screwed up so bad they have nothing to eat. I'm thinking the answer they would get would be, when we're done eating, we'll bring over what's left and you can come do our dishes in return. I can't imagine boys getting to the worse case scenario, even theoretically, and if they do, I'm thinking the GM screwed up almost on an intentional level. Okay, come next meeting, what's the PL going to do to keep this situation from ever happening again? I don't see this as ever getting out of the realm of the PL, who in my troop is the highest ranking officer in the troop. He has total authority to take care of his boys in his patrol. If he needs help, he has the SPL to assist him if necessary. PL is selected/drafted/elected/whatever, but the rest of the officers in the patrol are assigned by the PL. I would have a new GM in place and trained before the next outing if I were the PL. So where do the adults fit into this scenario? They don't. Think about it, what patrol doesn't have a loaf of bread and peanut butter as a backup? If not where's the Be Prepared that we teach? This is not an issue that adults need to jump to the rescue. Stosh

My buddy and I carried 1/2 of a pup tent each like the military and did just fine. Now if I want to backpack, I have a one-man tent. or just use my poncho. I've even set up my 1/2 pup tent as a shebang and it worked nicely. if it rained, throw the poncho over the opening. I guess I don't need as much comfort as boys expect today. Stosh

We are all held accountable for our actions in our personal lives. Those of us in Scouting take on additional rules so as to help young boys become men. Does that mean we automatically retrofit all of BSA's rules back into our personal lives? To a certain extend maybe yes, like the Oath and Laws. Does that mean I'm going to be wearing my scout uniform to work? to other non-scouting activities? Is the Mrs. and I going to living in a tent? Do I give up my biker buddies? Do I try and set a good example for my boys? Not necessarily. Like they say, if you can't be a shining example, be a horrible warning. Just because BSA has rules about carrying weapons, does that mean I can't carry them. BSA says you can't hunt, Does that mean I can't when I'm not around scouts? Is it hypocrisy to use charcoal lighter to start a fire when it's just the Mrs. and I? If I invite the boys over to the house to roast marshmallows, do I have to follow BSA rules? Does my wife need YPT if I invite the boys over to the house for a pizza party? I choose what BSA rules I wish to follow for my personal life, not the other way around. Sometimes I'm okay, sometimes I'm not. Can't please everyone all the time. Stosh BTW, do I have to get rid of my t-shirt with the buck head with a huge set of antlers on it and the saying below that says, "Ladies, please, my eyes are down here." I figure with the picture of the deer on it it might make a really good class-B with a little duct tape.

My comments are directed to the heart of the problem. How many problems do we face in the troops because of the way we deal with it. If a patrol has a problem the PL handles it. That is as far as this going without food issue should have gone. Instead, we have the SPL stepping in an dumping on the PL for not doing his job, when feeding the patrol was not his job to begin with. The the adults come flocking around with their safety net and cover everyone's bases and mitigate the problem and never sit down and deal with Mr. Grubmaster who made this whole dog and pony show possible in the first place. In "theory" shouldn't the lesson be, A Scout is Trustworthy and how does that apply to my responsibilities to my buddies in the patrol? I'm QM and I can't make the outing for the weekend so why should I worry about whether or not every one that can go has a tent, and a camp stove that works, and this and that? If I'm Grubmaster and can't go, why should I be held accountable for the rest of the patrol's food, let someone else do it. Allowing this untrustworthiness to go unchecked is why some troops seem to harbor a lot of problems. Other threads have indicated over and over again how they can't get their boys to "fufill" their POR's without a ton of rules and regs and threats and warnings and.... and... and.... I hear parents discipline their children.... One! I'm warning you.... Two, you better not let me get to three.... and finally the kid obeys. I was raised in a home where discipline was dished out..... BAM! What happened to One????? I learned very quickly what worked and what didn't. So what happened to the Grubmaster in all this? The "theory" is to deal with the cure of the disease, don't just treat the symptoms. I'm a firm believer that a lot of what goes wrong in troops is a result of the adults not focusing in on the real issues and run around just putting out fires here and there. 1) Is the PL trained well enough to select a functional Grubmaster? 2) Is the Grubmaster well versed in his duties and responsibilities under all circumstances? 3) Is the Grubmaster doing his job for the patrol or only for himself? 4) Is the PL capable of handling a situation where the Grubmaster fails at his job? 5) Did the boys pick a PL because he could do a good job or because he was popular? 6) Did the SPL train the popular PL so he could do a good job? 7) Did the SM expect the leadership of the troop to actually be functional? 8) Did anyone really learn anything from this experience or does it have the potential of repeating itself in the future? 9) Who has the responsibility in this whole fiasco? The Grubmaster? or the SM? Is the troop boy-led or adult-led? 10) Who has the authority to fix it? Does anyone ever really sit down and discuss it with their boys on this level? When all hell breaks loose like this, theory is great, but I'll settle for some practicality along the way too. When confronted with a problem like this, the challenge set before us as adult leaders is to say exactly what you said, "Whoa there!" "What's going on?" But that doesn't happen, instead everyone jumps into a frenzy with solutions to the problem!!! That's the job of the boy leadership! And we as adults cover up the symptoms and the boys learn nothing, except maybe next time something goes wrong, don't worry, the adults will fix it. Stosh

Why is the SPL taking heat for an inept grubmaster? Maybe it's time the grubmaster start doing his job. A scout is trustworthy and this grubmaster is not even in the ballpark. The buck stops at HIS desk. Next step. PL reassigns grubmaster responsibilities to someone who will do the job. Problem solved. It's a patrol problem... no one else's. Instead, one kid screws up and the whole troop and it's adult leadership goes into a tail spin. Serious lack of leadership at all levels here. Some patrol member running off to whine to the SM? Seriously? Making Mountains Out of Molehills 101. This problem should have been completely addressed while the boys were in the NSP, not 2-3 years later. Maybe it's time for some leadership training to help this troop become functional. Back when I was Webelos I and II DL, I had a more functional group than this patrol with a screw-up grubmaster. Stosh

I have been told by my Silver Award daughter that her daughter will be taught hunting/camping/outdoor skills by her grandfather. End of discussion. I'm figuring that she'll have logged more camping/outdoor activities than the average Webelos II boy by the time she's Tiger Cub age. Of course the fact that her grandmother spent many years working the Alaskan lumber for the US Forestry service is just an added plus...... (she was a Daisy Scout for one year.) Stosh

I own a lantern somewhere.... Never use it. Small flashlight is all I need. Hate the stupid head lamps. Every time a boy looks at you, it takes 5 minutes to readjust your night vision. LNT is not just garbage, but it's also garbage colors, lights and sounds. I don't think anyone appreciates the joker that shows up with a bight yellow tent, big boombox and yard light lantern in the site next to yours. I find that without lanterns, the boys turn in earlier and get up earlier. Nothing to do in the dark. Look to see which troops are staying up until midnight.... yep, the ones with the yard light lanterns. Just another example of where well-meaning adults make problems for themselves and then try and blame on the boys. Stosh

Ex smokers can better explain the problems with tobacco use than someone who's just following policy protocol and program scripts. It has always amazed me that the WCTU (Women's Christian Temperance Union) is fanatically against the consumption of alcohol. Yet the word Temperance (moderation) is in it's title. I had them give me a card when I was a small kid that said if I sign I'd never drink alcohol in my lifetime. I took it home and asked my mother. She took the card, looked it over and tossed it in the garbage. She said I'd never be able to adhere to it anyway. She was correct, I'd never have been able to be a minister, never take Christian communion, and that's just the start. Sometimes we get so fanatical that we often times miss the forest because the trees get in the way. If we have boys bringing drugs to events, I'm thinking catching them smoking or drinking, is an easy fix. The national average for kids trying out alcohol is 8th grade. I don't know what it is for smoking or doing drugs, but I'm thinking it's right in there at that experimental age. How adults handle it at that point is critical and hypocrisy is not the answer. Stosh

New troop, 6 boys, not much equipment, popcorn sales to-date $6,000+ (half way) and one boy is closing in on the $2500 mark. Two boys sold $100 tins to two individuals and they weren't relatives or parent co-workers either. Dues? Yeah right. No matter how much money gets raised, no ISA and everyone is expected to toss in $$ for every event so they have skin in the game. No freebie rides here. Every parent knows as well it is expected the boy pay with money they have earned and not a hand out from mom/dad. Full official uniform, no knock-off substitutes. A Scout is Thrifty. Once popcorn is over with, Christmas wreaths are on the calendar...... Oh, by the way, the troop owns tents and sleeping bags for all the boys already. We're working on dining fly and kitchen items this time around. Sound like a lot of fund raising? Yep, but we still get to our outings and are still signing up for more service projects as of last night. CO is a church and they are having their annual fund raising church supper. Boys signed on to bus dishes and will accept no financial compensation for the effort. Stosh

Isn't hypocrisy a wonderful thing? I'm not a tea totaler, and I have recently given up smoking. Does that mean I'm a better person than the next? No, it means I just have a bit more money in my pocket. Giving something up because one can't afford it is not the same as giving it up for moral/ethical/healthy reasons. I'm more of a whiskey man, and if someone is looking for a Christmas gift idea, it's Crown Royal, thank you very much. And so how many scouters out there are conceal carry? There's another whole can of worms. Stosh

Noticed your earlier post, it was nice to see you back. Stosh

I'm thinking it isn't so much a over-focus on just one of the laws in as much as it might be more of a re-emphasis because it has been seriously neglected for so long. You may be correct in that it might be a bit more emphasis than is really necessary. getting boys off the sofa and away from the computer chair might not be such a bad idea though. Stosh

When it comes to money, everyone seems to have their own definition of what's honest. Stosh

SMC: What did you do this month to be trustworthy? What did you do this month to be loyal?.... so why can't we ask What did you do this month to be reverent? We've all become phobic of the topic to the point were we can't even talk about it and thus it makes the 12th point of the Scout Law obsolete. What did you do to keep your self physically strong this month? morally straight? What did you do for your helping other people, how about your duty to your community, but we can't ask about their duty to God? Back to the phobic thingy again. So we can drop that part of the Oath because it too has become obsolete. Let's teach the boys the "Pass the Buck" game. Whenever one is put on the spot to do something that would be intimidating you just pass the buck to the next guy. This works only so long as the boys never ask you what you have done to be Brave this past month. Stosh

A one write rule that covers all aspects of an issue will most certainly devolve to the most restrictive. I have had candle lanterns in tents, open candles, cooked under dying flies, etc. I have done the wood stoves inside tents and NONE of those tents/tarps were nylon. That also means none of the items inside the tent were nylon as well. Of course meadow crashing next to the campfire on a cold night might be pushing the rules a bit. It used to be a fire-guard was a person, not a set of tools and buckets. But then I'm a lot older than a lot of those on the forum. I do remember the pre-nylon days. Anyone remember what a "bug light" was? Baker tents were great in colder weather (think reflector oven). Stosh