Stosh

In a boy-led, patrol-method program, the adults are there to assist the boys become what they want to be, not hinder them because it is inconvenient for them. Solution? Have the patrol Scribes collect up the money for food prior to shopping and then don't worry about the committee treasurer who has territory issues. The JASM's can be invited prior to the event and planned into the menu amounts. After all who's to say that with a Scribe, there can't be a modest amount of money squirreled away by the patrol to handle situations like this. Also the older boys in one patrol have no say so over what happens in any patrol other than their own. Every PL runs his own patrol and develops his own traditions. Older boys dictating what the younger patrols can and cannot do is not the patrol method. It's the SPL that needs to step in and clarify patrol boundaries, that's what he's there for. Take care of your boys, make sure each PL's autonomy is preserved. Let your 18 year olds know that traditions are for them, not those who follow, they're going to have traditions of their own. The 18 year olds need to be reprogramed into the adult position in the troop where they guide as necessary but only when asked. Seriously? I hope my troop will be far different tomorrow than it is today. It's called growth and development, not tradition that makes that happen. Stosh

Do what you can and leave the rest for another day. It's really easy to burn out. Look at this starting a new pack idea as a 2-3 year project, not a 6 month project. Stosh I got my boys to summer camp this summer and they attended their first camporee this weekend. I've been working on this troop since summer before last and now have 6 boys.

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This past weekend I suggested it to my 11 year olds. I have a couple of them interested in doing the ice igloo overnight. They have the equipment, and some of them have the hutzpa to pull it off. Might not be the winter survival weekend most of us think of being 20' from the lodge, but for an 11 year old, it might still be quite the adventure.

A lot of what goes on with the small troops/patrols is that they do like safety in numbers. This past weekend I had 3 of the 6 boys attending. 2 had family commitments and the third missing boy was doing his black belt testing on Saturday. All legitimate excuses. So that left 3 boys. After getting there, a SM from another troop with 1 boy showing up approached me and asked if his boy could hang out with my boys. I called over my PL and introduced him to the other SM and asked the SM to repeat the request. The boy said sure, just show up whenever he wanted. So I had three 11 year olds and a 16 year old. Not only was it a ad hoc patrol but it was an ad hoc patrol from two different troops. Needless to say the younger boys thought it great to have an older scout and the older boy kinda took the younger boys under his wing. Needless to say they placed third in 2 events which thrilled my boys. So, was this a lesson in how to build ad hoc patrols? Inter troop relationships? name your poison? I dunno. Boys made a decision, had a good time, it cost me nothing, I got a good night's sleep and everyone got home safe. Life is good. There are times when strict rulings for the patrol method need to be set aside. Maybe only one boy in your troop has interest in Philmont and there's one opening on the Council contingent. It's not the end of the world to bend the rules. However, if it becomes routine it might be something one wishes to revisit. LeCastor: Ever ask the boys why they do the ad hoc troop thingy? That might give you a clue as to where to steer the boys so that the trend is mitigated or resolved. The two PL's and SM sit down and hash it out over a pizza. That should take care of it. I'm thinking it's a lack of participation, lack of planning by one or both patrols. Laziness of one of the patrols. There could be a number of things. It might be well to know exactly which one it is. There's nothing in the patrol-method rule book that says adults can't ask questions. Stosh Oh, by the way, I've already been chastised by others because I have photo documented activities and then shown the boys the pictures. They seemed to think it might even fringe on the edge of bullying or hassling by making them feel bad for not wanting to go. This is probably why I wouldn't do well as a travel agent. One may not want to make the dogs feel bad by having a skier go out ahead and scout things out.

That might be somewhat difficult to do..... I'm thinking from the information provided these are Canadian Scouts. OPP is Ontario Provincial Police. Stosh

I have found that if the Council puts out a nice activity and my boys want to go, they go. If not they go somewhere else that is nice. My boys this year did not go to the spring camporee, but did their own campout that month. My boys did not attend the Council's summer camp, but went to another in the area. My boys did attend Fall Camporee in a different district, because our district did not have one so that the boys would be available to work the Cub Scout Spookeree program. Once the Council figures out what good programming is all about, my boys will take their activities into consideration. Until then, there are a ton of other options out there to pick from. One does all this for the boys. If the boys aren't having fun, then it's time to make your own or go looking for other options elsewhere. Stosh

It's really nice to be able to pack up and be on the road in less than an hour if necessary. My committee keeps asking when should we be buying a trailer? So far the ASM and I have decided to hold off as long as possible. For our plop camping the fire ring and picnic table are nice, but they come with the site. So far we haven't even set up a dining fly on an outing. It can be done. Stosh

And so the Sea Scouts wearing Navy uniforms is prohibited. That should settle that problem. I do believe that at one point, BSA was the only civilian organization that was allowed by Congress to wear active duty uniforms outside the military. The original uniform was the US Army uniform with BSA buttons and collar brass. I don't know when the change over occurred from the tunic to the undershirt as the uniform. The garrison cap, the campaign hat, the beret hats are all patterned after US military uniform cover. The BSA belt is pretty much WW II web belt with a BSA buckle. Leggings were standard with the uniform until the big hoopala of the anti-war sentiment of the late '60's and the uniform changed along with the rest of the BSA program emphasis to anti-military. How Sea Scouts got away without changing I have no idea. Stosh

Kinda like, don't pee in the pool. One doesn't need to be in the pool, they don't even need to be near the pool. If everyone is worried about tobacco smoke, one ought to stop and think about what all the agriculture run off both natural and chemical is going into one's drinking water. Most places now are collecting up old chemicals, medicines, and a ton of other toxic waste that up until a few years ago were routinely emptied into our drinking water supply. A number of years back the guv'ment identified super dumps and spent millions containing them. All the people along the Mississippi River can now rest easy in knowing that they have gone in and done containment measures on one of these because it is located just a few feet from the main channel of the river. Knowing that, second hand smoke doesn't bother me one bit. It's a shell game.... and very few people really know where the pea is. Marathon runners in China run with face masks on because of the smog. No different than in LA. My ASM has had to have the county supply fresh water to her home for years because they have poisoned her well (along with all her neighbors' wells) with the county landfill. It's easier to jump all over someone's case for lighting up a cigarette than it is to work on the real source of the problems we face. Stosh

A lot of what one deals with when purchasing lanterns such as these is the place where one is going to use it. LED's work great as long as the battery lasts and in cold weather that time can be drastically reduced. Lithium batteries last a bit longer than regular batteries, but in cold weather have extra extra batteries and keep them warm. Butane works down to freezing but becomes useless below that. Iso-Butane will get you down to 20-degrees, but below that one will need propane. Sunday morning it was 30-degrees when I woke up and the propane stove did work. Most lanterns run off the tank on the bottom and rely on vaporized fuel to run. If it doesn't vaporize, it isn't going to work. Propane tanks are highly pressurized and heavy to carry. Good luck with that on backpacking treks. White/unleaded gas will work when the weather turns really cold. The generator needs to be preheated, but it will work. The storage tanks for white/unleaded gas do not require pressure, are made of aluminum and are better for backpacking. I have a small white/unleaded gas lantern I use in all weather conditions and it is small enough for backpacking. The fuel works for both cooking and lighting. If the only camping one is doing is warm weather, then the LED is the route to go. If one is into mountain/winter camping, they will need to rethink their options. Stosh

Scoring other than pass fail is only a result of fuzzy logic to appease those who refuse to comply. Regardless of the inspection sheet, either one is wearing the uniform and wearing it correctly or they are not. That is now the fuzzy logic gets filtered out. Just this weekend was at camporee and I saw what appeared to be either athletic warm up pants or pajama bottoms at the flag ceremony. Somehow these units have the idea that a partial uniform is okay. Who has taught them that? 50 years ago, that was NOT the case.In all the years I was a youth scout, both Cub and Boy, I wore hat, shirt, scarf, belt pants and socks. What's the percent of boys today that even come close to that? And better yet, what's the percent of adults today that even come close to that? Stosh

It is impossible to solve a problem that one knows nothing about. From what I can tell this is the OP's first post and newbie to the forum. How do we know it's not a troll? If not a troll, please be so kind as to give the forum some clarification so they quit tossing out random solutions to an unknown problem. Stosh

If one is to lead by example, I would prefer the adults not wear the uniform over wearing it incorrectly. Sends the wrong message to the boys. Stosh

Sentinel, MattR has a point, with this transition you will polarize people rather quickly so a lot of smoothing of feathers is going to be needed. No middle ground on this stuff. Remember some of these boys did not originally sign on to this troop because it was boy-led, patrol-method. As far as adults recommending treks? That's what campfires are for! Tell the stories! It's the best advertising out there! Stosh

The sun never sets on the British Empire. I know where NZ, Australia, Canada, the UK, Ireland, the US, Gianna, Bahamas, South Africa and the Fauklands are... Point being, one would think that with enough changes it will become impossible to identify the original, and the originator would be a bit more careful of preserving it. Stosh

Once the colors are cut up, the flag no longer exists. Burning is no longer necessary. What one does with pieces of the flag is no different than disposing of the ashes. This is why the flag is carefully folded before burning. It goes into the fire as a flag, not scraps of cloth. If Grandpa Joe's funeral flag is worn and getting old and one wants to cut it up then they can by all means use it to make an heirloom quilt because it's no longer a flag. One of the reasons BSA has the right to retire colors is because they are supposed to know how to do it correctly. There's a lot of different traditions out there. Some have no basis in truth than someone's neat idea at one time long ago. Stosh Stosh

We've never really worried about the ashes, but we do collect the grommets after the fire has cooled and return them to the families that had us dispose the flag. Some times these flags may have been part of a military funeral and families have said it was a nice touch to get the grommets back. Getting the boys involved, we have always taken the flag and run it one more time up the flagpole regardless of it's condition. Saluted and pledged one last time for it. Then carefully folded best we could into the triangle and taken to the fire to be burned. The boys place it folded in the fire and then salute until it is no longer recognizable. This often takes quite some time and some of the boys say that's the best part of the ceremony because it offers them the time to think about what the flag is all about, especially the one burning. Stosh

Our local security officer at work was complaining to me yesterday that as of Oct 15, he had to start wearing his long sleeved uniform shirt. It's still a bit warm in this part of the country. He told me he had to adjust because it's what it takes for all the employees to be uniformed. I can't wait until some of these boys get out in the real world and realize they had an opportunity to learn these lessons and didn't. ymphil - Welcome to the forum! Stosh

"Run it into the ground" = change the program so much that one can't tell what it originally was. Sure Scouts will be around, but will it be anything resembling what it was 100 years ago? Obviously not. So what then has it become? It's called Scouting, but is it really? Jury's out on that ... Stosh

The UK was the first to introduce Scouting to the world. They just might be the first to run it into the ground, too. Stosh

Okay, here's the real magic in the process. IF one were to couple BOY-LED with the PATROL-METHOD they would get a double benefit for the troop. "But you also have to give them some extra.... " HEY ADULTS!! Why are you holding the boys back in the first place? "Hey, boys! We're gonna give you the chance to got to Philmont. Isn't that just wonderful?" No it's not! It's wonderful when the boys come to you and say they are going to Philmont next year, they got their name in and have a trek accepted. The week is________. Find us two-adults or we'll find our own." Yes!!! When the boys get to that level, you have a wonderful troop. The next step, notifying my employer that I need the week of ______ off, I'll be out of town! Promise them adventure and deliver a Webelos III program. Sorry, that just doesn't cut it. Never give them extra challenges that are just for them. Let them know up-front that you EXPECT them to get out there and find their own extra challenges and that 2 or 3 a year might not be enough. Stosh

"So my plan of action is really simple. The decisions that need to be made I believe can be solved by our current patrol leaders council. Our (A)SPL's are NYLT trained. All they've ever been waiting for is adults to let them do what they've been trained for. I need to educate the other Scoutmasters and Parents about the patrol method, and why its valuable." What a sad commentary for any unit... Sentenel947 hits it spot on. Why does this take a an epic amount of energy just to do what we're supposed to be doing in the first place? People have asked me in the past why I'm so against NYLT. Well for one thing, it's useless training for boys in an adult-led program for a start. Wasted time, wasted finances and wasted energy. All it does is put yet another disappointment out there for the boys to deal with. Stosh