Stosh

From what I have experienced, some of the religious programs have various age levels which can be taken to earn the knot and get the medallion. The boy could earn it at a Cub level or a Boy level. But he only needs to earn it once at any level to get the knot. Now if the boy does earn it as a Cub Scout and then continues with the program and earns another level in Boy Scouts, he can put a Cub device and Boy Scout device on his knot to show that it was earned in both programs. I'm thinking some of these religious programs have multiple levels even within each level of scouting. He can carry that knot (with devices if present) forward onto his adult uniform. Technically these religious knot programs are NOT part of the BSA, but BSA recognizes them as they are earned in each religious program. Stosh

I have one shirt that has all the bells, whistles and blink I've earned on it. It gets dragged out for the special occasions. Then I have a UC shirt with just loops, Council patch and UC patch. Then I have a modest shirt that gets worn for "every day". It has a few things on it, 2 rows of knots. I do wear my WB beads, but no woggle or necker. I guess I just don't worry too much about it, but play it by ear for whatever occasion seems to warrant what. Stosh

We have Fish/Wildlife right in our community. They do a lot of really good things for the scouts. Some of the better Eagle projects have been for them in return. Stosh

LeCastor's wikipedia link explains it very well. Stosh

It's a good thing adults don't have to have TC's.... I would lose mine within days because I always have a belt ax/sheath knife combo on while camping. Every time I get challenged for such a breach of protocol, I just challenge back. Who can bring back the most firewood in five minutes. You and your jack knife or me and my combo tools. I have never had anyone take me up on the challenge. By the way, it's a BSA belt ax/sheath knife combo. Stosh

My nephew is Aussie. They compete as a family. For the life of me I can't figure out why it hasn't become popular with American Scouts. Stosh

While it's not all that popular in the US, one might want to do a Rogaine event that would encompass (pun intended) the whole weekend. Excellent for compass work, team building, decision making, etc. Really worth the effort to at least try. Stosh

We have the same problem when the D.A.R.E officer shows up to do a talk on drugs. The only time the gun got trumped was when he brought in the drug sniffing dog. Now if the dog had a gun, well, that would be Valhalla, Cloud 9 and 7th Heaven all rolled into one. Stosh

Maybe they ought to have a Stem Badge for those that are into the techie, classroom style of management and leave Wood Badge for the naturalist, outdoors style of leadership. Stosh

AND NOW you understand why I would say, keep the policies the way they were. The more cans of worms BSA opens the more complicated it becomes. It has nothing to do with how I feel about the subject matter, it has to do with the dynamics of changing policies. The more that gets brought out into the open, changed and then realize it's complicated the more confused everyone's going to get. Homosexuality, religion, etc. etc. all the, keeping up with a changing world isn't always a good idea. Once one starts swimming in uncharted waters, the more chance there is of something going wrong. Like my dad always said, never buy the new model of cars, wait a year or two until they have worked all the bugs out. Same holds true for purchasing Software 1.0 Good luck with that. No need to apologize, I may not have been clear in what I was trying to say. As a minister I probably have skin in the game with both the homosexual as well as religious issues. But as a former minister, I can choose not to participate in any of the politics of the issue. All I'm saying for sure is that after 40 years of working with youth organizations, if one goes into the fray confused, one may not be coming out in one piece. Stosh

My eldest daughter bailed as having enough after reaching silver. She's the one that has told me I am the one that will teach my granddaughter outdoor camping, hunting and fishing skills. Stosh

My first question would be how many people are going to be served. If 50+ people that's going to be about 10-12 dutch ovens. If one doesn't have enough DO's then all those recipes are off the table (so to speak. ) Big pot items go well. Spaghetti/pasta with a sauce dump. Rice with a chicken sweet/sour sauce dump. Boiled potatoes with meat/gravy (sauce) dump. Serve in paper bowls, with plastic spoon, Burn bowl, keep spoon. If you're not worried about taste, go with the Dinty Moore stuff, chili cans, I would do the canned stuff only out of desperation. Otherwise you need to go with the hand foods, hotdogs, burgers, kinds of stuff. Sloppy Joes/pulled pork would be a sauce dump hand food. Hard boiled eggs make good am hand food, no plate, no spoon necessary. Same for apples/oranges/bananas and other hand fruit. Pita/pocket breads go well with the sloppy joes/pulled pork Big pan items - fajitas sloppy joes, etc, anything messy that can be rolled up in a soft taco. Cuts down on the paper plates and silverware. Big pot items - Mac/Cheese w/bacon, Spam, hot dogs, cooked burger, etc. Serve in paper bowl with spoon, toss bowl in fire, keep spoon. One pan foil dinner: Fry up all the burger/onions that would have been used for foil dinner. add a broth and thicken for gravy Boil potatoes and carrots separately Mash potatoes and dump brown sugar/butter on drained carrots 3 items to wash, serve food in paper bowls plastic spoon, burn bowl, save spoon. Am b-fast Heat water, hand out oatmeal packs. pour juice in paper cup. When done with juice put in hot water and oatmeal/stir. Burn cup save spoon. Pudding for desert. Pkg pudding mix in zip locks, add 1 c. milk zip shut, massage for 2 minutes, pour into cups, with spoon, garbage plastic, burn paper, keep spoons. Cobblers, serve up in cups with spoons. Burn cups, keep spoon. How to camp clean plastic spoons. Whip clean with paper towel. Wipe down with alcohol wipe, toss towel and wipe in the fire, stick spoon in pocket. Set out a huge bucket of unshelled peanuts. Tell the boys they can eat whenever they want. Stosh

Elvis? OMG! Get the girls inside, NOW! Mick Jagger? "Do you want your Rolling Stones magazine in a separate brown paper bag?" Beatles? What's the world coming to! and get a haircut! It's a sad day when you vividly remember reading Pogo every day in the paper.....Pogo, Li'l Abner, Dick Tracy and of course Mark Trail. Pogo made Dunesbury look like a Disney cartoon. And one also has to take into consideration that Albert is always smoking his cigar. I really love those old politically incorrect comics! Stosh

WHAT? You don't like the Banana Republic Dictator look when it comes to adult uniforms? Welcome to the forum! Stosh

And so after 14 years, what impact has it made on the troops? That time span is sufficient to show some evidence. But it doesn't. To this day, we have leaders here and there tenuously trying out the patrol method in uncharted seas in some troops. So what went wrong in the first place and why isn't this training effective in showing progress? There is an obvious disconnect going on and it's been around for a very long time. Even those of the pre-WB21C struggle with it as I can attest to. Theoretically patrol method is taught in the SM Fundamentals and subsequent training programs. It's taught in WB old, new and newest maybe, and yet when one looks at an average troop from around the country, how much continuity is there? Ad hoc patrols, patrols of various sizes from 6-20, PL's with no authority to run a patrol. Troop cooking setups, one dining fly per site, etc. etc. I looked around the camporee last weekend and saw only 1 patrol flag, my boys'. When the awards were handed out at campfire for the competitions they were handed out to the troop and 99% of the time the ribbon was placed on the troop flag. How many summer camps allow for the registration of patrols instead of just troops. How many offer PL meetings and how many invite only the SPL? How many troops can seriously say that at 90% of the meals the menus for the patrols are all different, and how many say that at any given meal everyone eats the same thing? I'm willing to bet that 75% of the troops at best give the patrol method lip-service token gestures to give the impression they are doing it. If one ever wonders how this works, just walk around at the next camporee and see how many scouts have easy access to their patrol flag, their regular one, not something they found in the back of the trailer, but one that actually matches the patch on their sleeve. And now many boys in that competition group all have the same patrol patch on their uniform. Ask a leader how many patrols their troop has and then count the number of dining flies in the site. On any given scout outing, I would bet I could find more evidence that the average troop uses the troop method than someone else could point out evidence of the patrol method as taught in leader training is being followed. Stosh

From my experience some of the ticket items are pretty weak and as DuctTape says, counterproductive. In 1993 when I took WB, it took the full two years to fulfill my ticket. being 30 years go, I vaguely remember the requirements but I do believe that there were 3 ticket items that pertained to Scouting goals, 3 ticket items that pertained to professional goals, and 3 ticket items that pertained to personal/family goals. I also remember that those in my patrol and others of that course taking well over a year to work their tickets as well. I can honestly say I put 30 minutes a week minimum for 2 years to work my ticket. I have 6 Eagle scouts that can attest to that. And yet I see people getting their beads in just a couple months after finishing the course. It just makes one wonder about the hyped superiority of the WB21C program. It's kinda like the Eagle program. It's value is what one puts into it. Stosh

Liscouter: Welcome to the forum! First of all as a parent, relax! Your son just got an excellent learning opportunity dropped in his lap. It's called a reality check and as one well knows, this goes on many, many times during the adolescent years. Mom and Dad are not the ideal people they thought they were when they were 5 years old. The idealistic world of Scouting is shaken by the reality of the people in the Eagle program. So now's the time to sit down with your boy, explain the world is not as idealistic as he once thought and that as a maturing adult, he needs to be making choices for himself and don't worry about "the other guy". Your son now has an opportunity to actually choose a route for his Eagle that will set the value of that rank for him and his future. That value should NOT be set by anyone else anyway. It's HIS Eagle and he can set whatever value he puts into it by what he does to get it. People on this forum have tossed a few e-bricks at me for using the term Paper Eagle or Parlor Scouts. But you and your son now know what I am referring to. Maybe you can help me find a better term that doesn't offend other Eagles in the process. What people don't realize is that it's not me and my terminology that's the problem, it's boys like your son met that are the real problem. So the challenge/opportunity for your son? What's he going to do to make Scouting the ideal he once thought it was? What's the example he is going to set for the young idealistic scouts that follow in his footsteps? As far as the other boy is concerned, I wouldn't worry too much about it. If he brags enough the word will get back to the leadership of the troop, but once a blue card is signed there is nothing anyone can do about it. The only thing that can be controlled is the actions of your son, by him! Just support him in his decision. Stosh

It is my opinion (and mine alone) that believes that the reason BALOO came along is because there have been many well-meaning adults taking kids out camping and they themselves have never spent a night in their life under canvas. When I was doing Webelos training it was surprising how many of the WDL's came to the training with a brand-new sleeping bag and tent that they had purchased on the way to the training. (No, I didn't make that up!) I always had to make extra time on Saturday to help the participants set up their tents because they had no idea what to do after they opened the box. So, do any of the Cub DL's have this problem, because if they do, it's going to be a real mess when all the parents of the boys show up and have brand new tents and sleeping bags looking for help, too and they look to the DL's who are setting up their tents for the first time? The next step? What about meals? What kind of issue is that going to be? I'm assuming that BALOO does a lot to mitigate some of these issues. If it doesn't, it should. There should be at least one person at the activity who has a background in these basic outdoor overnight issues. Stosh

If there are rules and regulations concerning the finances of a unit it should be dictated by the CO, after all it's their money! Stosh

It's going to take a while to build trust. They've heard lip-service from adults before and they're kinda immune to it. The adults talk big ideas, but are always quick to pull the rug out from under them whenever they want. That first storm for them is going to feel like a rug to them. Stosh

Of course it makes sense. If a percentage the boys in your troop have homosexual parents, then that percentage of one's potential leadership base is immediately reduced. Sure they can attend events and even chaperone, but I do make it clear I was referring to a camping activity. Does anyone want to get to the event and then find out that all the boys want to bunk in with their parent and the boys with out legal adoption/guardianship of their child will simply have to go home. That I'm sure would make a very awkward situation for all concerned especially any Cub Scout caught up in the situation at no fault of his own. " I do think JBlake makes a good argument for local option on adult leadership, though I suspect that is not what he was trying to do, unless I have misunderstood his position all these years." Whatever position one thinks I might have on the subject would be an assumption on their part. I have never made a comment that would state my position one way or the other. There's a lot of assumptions floating around on forums these days, what's one more here or there. All I'm saying is one needs to be learned and vigilant in what they are doing. If not, your career in Scouting could be over in a heartbeat and it would be good to have a good lawyer handy as well. Stosh

I wonder if this is National's way of making the WB for the 21st obsolete like the "old" WB prior to 2000? If I were to make a suggestion it would be to take the principles of scouting like Boy Led, Patrol Method, and Woodcraft, and such that makes Scouting the unique program it is and develop a curriculum that helps basically trained leaders push their envelop to dive deeper into scouting. We do a good job of making everyone a Jack-of-all-trades on a superficial level, but I would like to see it go deep. My "old" WB did a bit of this where we got our hands dirty as the boys would coming through the ranks. But now National wants more than first aid out of it's leaders, they need Wilderness First Aid. That's a deep dive for a lot of our leadership. Where's the deep dive on the Patrol Method? or the deep dive on Boy Led? We give those items lip-service, but really don't expect our people to actually implement them. I would like to see a unit on leadership, Servant Leadership where SM's and other leaders are trained to assist our boys rather than always feeling they need to lead and direct them. They are now teaching Servant Leadership on the collegiate level. Maybe not to that extreme, but a deeper dive on that. Stosh

You're not going to give up, are you? ( LOL )

Welcome to the forum! First of all Basic Adult Leader Outdoor Orientation training. - Contact your local Boy Scout troops. I'm sure there might be a SM or ASM who may have had that training or is currently teaching it. If not, there's probably many of them that could. I don't know about the Scouters in your area, but if offered a freebie weekend of camping, good food, and all the coffee I can drink, I'm game! I don't know how technical the rule is, but if I had a trained Boy Scout leader on-site I'm thinking the council may accept that as a BALOO equivalent. Check with your council. I am a SM with 30+ years experience. Done a number of high adventure treks to Philmont and BWCA. I used to teach Webelos Overnighter Training (4 years) Never took the course, just taught it. And yet I've never taken the BALOO course. Am I qualified or not? Get down to the council office and do what it takes to make it happen for the boys! Cancelling is never an option! Stosh

then it wasn't "just camping". A game with a purpose. Advancement is an excellent activity for an outing. Lash some poles together in the church basement, or make something for real out in the woods. Sounds like a no-brainer to me. Stosh