Stosh

I would have the boys gather around the pile of food and do a LNT training session in that one doesn't need to be in the woods to leave a mess. Stosh

The problem with that scenario is that the Committee of the unit is NOT the governing association, the CO is and the money belongs to the CO so the CO needs to be making the vote to open the account for the boys. One needs to fully understand the relationship between the CO and the unit. THE UNIT BELONGS TO THE CO. The committee is responsible for making sure everything is aligned correctly, the right personnel are in place and the BSA protocol is followed ON BEHALF OF THE CO. As a matter of fact the Committee can vote themselves silly and one word such as "No" from the COR and it's all for naught. My CO is a church and I view my program as part of that congregations ministry to the youth of the community. They have a youth director that handles the youth of the congregation, my job is to reach out into the community to provide a program for the youth there. Stosh

And when it doesn't happen? The DL will step in an do it because they don't want to disappoint their boys. I really hate to get railroaded like that because it's the collateral DL that takes the brunt of it . Instead, offer up the activity needing adult leadership. If no one steps forward, then cancel it. No popcorn fundraising this year. No money in the bank? Not a problem if you want your boy to have the Bear award and 1 gold and 2 silver arrow points, the cost is going to be $XX.XX. If you don't wish to buy these for your boys, no problem he's still having a great time in Cub Scouts. Blue Gold will be potluck for those who bring a dish to pass, those who don't are invited for coffee and cookies following the awards ceremony for those boys who's parents provided awards. The boys are all going to _____________ for an outing this month. The cost is $XX.XX, due 3 days prior to leaving. Oh, you don't have $XX.XX? I'm really sorry to hear that. I'm sure your boy will be disappointed in not being able to go. Brutal? Since when is it the scout leader's job to provide all of this AND run the program? Or is it just as brutal to have all these boys pumped up for scouting just to disappoint them because the parents won't get off their butts and help? Caring Scout leaders tend to absorb more guilt than the non-caring parents. Don't blame a poor program on unsupported scout leaders, put the blame where it belongs. Stosh

I have mentioned before in other posts that BSA troops makes little or no effort to actually use the Patrol Method which BSA promotes. There have been hundreds of comments on ad hoc patrols, patrol sizes from 2 to 20, SPL runs the troop, PLC made up of anyone who wants to show up, annual reorganizations of patrols by adults, etc. Is it any wonder no one really knows what's going on in the average troop. Hey, 6 boys are finally just now getting the hang of this teamwork thing, they are working together at the activities and starting to get a handle on it when the SM shows up and says here's your two new boys. So, what do you do, start all over? ignore them? spend all your new free time on training them? or what? I for one would not appreciate that kind of adult imposition on my patrol. Do this 2 -3 times and by then the boys have reached 16, have their car keys and they vote with their feet. Then the SM blames the scout for leaving. I guess I wouldn't have a problem with not doing the patrol method, but there seems to be a lot of effort out there that actually works against any effort to even have a patrol method. A group of well trained adults can simply take over run the show and tell the boys what's going to happen. End of discussion. And unfortunately I see this all the time. But then there's the SM who dangles patrol-method out there, breaks into groups, has elections, etc, only to thoroughly convince the boys that it is totally in name only and that for convenience sake, all bets are off once we get to Camporee. These are NOT the things taught by BSA to any of the leaders, but somehow that seems to be the standard operating process for most troops. I am dumbfounded as to where these SM/ASM's get the idea to run the program any other way than what is being taught. Scout camps are set up with dining halls where the boys might sit together as patrols, but probably more as troops. The competitions seems to favor troops and/or ad hoc patrols. Sites are too small to separate the patrols. It's been 15 years since I was at Philmont but isn't a contingent 9 people. With 2-deep adult, that means a full patrol of 8 can't go together. If one starts becoming sensitive to this issue, it is rather remarkable the number of things out there that are counter productive to the patrol method. I see troop flags with huge number of ribbons dangling from the top. How come those ribbons aren't hanging from the top of the patrol flags? Probably because the only patrol flag the troop is a pillow case tied to a stick so that they can get credit for it at a Camporee competition station. All I can say is: Wake up people this is NOT what BSA is teaching in it's training program! Stosh

Go back and re-teach the boys how to plan menus and proportion out the amount to buy. Keep doing this until the excess isn't there anymore. A scout is Thrifty and if they haven't learned their T-FC skills, then it's time to go back and review until they do. An emphasis at this point may set the training tradition straight so that future scouts don't keep making the same mistake their predecessors did. Keep it in mind the problem is not too much food left over, the problem is too much food was bought in the first place. One isn't going to cure the problem by dealing with the symptoms. Stosh

Nudging the patrol method into the new WB course will probably do no more good than the patrol method approach of all the rest of this historical WB's. The trick is to take it home and use it in the troops one is serving. That has always been the disconnect and until the adults are taught servant leadership instead of general management, it won't change. Stosh

Drum roll and trumpet fanfare always work for me! Stosh

Hmmm, how many different flavors of Judaism are there. Same for Muslims...well for all religions out there if one thinks about it a bit. We've had different flavors of Scouting all over the world, too. We have "Regular" Scouting, LDS Scouting, Venturing vs. Venture. Exploring vs. Venturing. BSA and GSUSA, then there's AHG, and TrailLife, Pioneering, and the list goes on and on and on..... It's always been a constant source of amusement to find people surprised by this.... No matter where you look, there's always someone out there that's got all the right answers. Never the same answers, but always the right answers. Stosh

Just keep the door open and keep inviting him. A bit of snail mail each event will eventually be seen by the parents and may open the door for some dialog between the boy and parent. Stosh

Sorry you have the wrong meaning for SPAM, it's "Specially Processed Animal Material". There are days when they run short of Squirrels and especially Possum. This is more generic and legally correct. Stosh

Lighten up, I'm sure there's a simple explanation out there... did you remember to take your meds this morning? Ya know, this wouldn't be as much fun if you didn't take it so seriously. I've had my accounts hijacked so it's no big thing and the moderators usually get it squared away rather quickly. Just be sure to change your password on your account before "they" do. If you don't, you'll be locked out of your own account. Stosh

There are no introductions of Eagle candidates in my council. My one scout walked into the room presented himself in front of the Board, saluted and said, "My name is ____________ and I am here for my Eagle Board of Review." He held his salute to the chagrin of the Board who finally hemmed and hawed until one of them said, "Please sit down." Obviously they had no idea what to make of it. One smiled and said, "A scout salutes the flag, but not other people." To which the boy opened his scout handbook and quoted him otherwise. Those poor Board members never had a chance. After an hour of being regaled by this Scout, I realized that the Board was able to ask him 4 questions. After the first, they had to interrupt him so they could ask 2, 3 and 4. Stosh

I always left the door open to visitors with no prejudging. Some that you think might join, don't and vice versa. Go have fun and don't worry about it. Wilderness survival 12/5 - 12/7 in the northern states? That'll weed out the faint of heart. Stosh

Koolaidman must be smoking some pretty good... ahmmm, Spam. Yeah, Spam, that's the word I'm looking for. Did you bring enough to share? Stosh

One can run a Rogain for 24/7 that could run from Friday night to Sunday noon. Sleeping and camping is optional. Stosh

If the committee gets control over the process, then it's their process and the boys no longer need to worry about any more. The committee can fiat anything they want, but the boys don't need to go long with it. They're going to fiat all the boys right out the door. No, they have to go ahead and make those plans and when they fail because of scheduling conflicts they will learn something for the next time. If there's no pinch, there's nothing to avoid next time. Nope, you missed my point. The SM's high standards might be absolutely terrific, but they are HIS, not the BOYS'! Guiding the boys to HIS standards is a waste of time. It's a lot easier to assist and help the boys get to THEIR standards! That's why they state the target and the adults listen carefully to make sure they know what page everyone is supposed to be on. Let them get out in front and lead and the adults assist and help them do just that. No, the Committee needs to mind it's own business and leave the planning and budgeting to the boys as part of their program of learning to do those things. How can one be the leader if they don't plan and budget? Planning is a piece of cake once they know what the target goal is. Here's step 1 to get there, then there's step 2, followed by step 3.... The leader knows the route to take. He should also know if it's economically feasible to take each of those steps. If not he should know how much money is there and work within those limits. Okay boys, are we going to chip in more money or do we need to plan a fundraiser? This is what a good PL does with his boys. As part of the helping the boys with their goals, an adult can offer up non-binding suggestions for the boys to consider. They are working 2 years out on a Philmont trek? "Hey, guys I wonder if it would be helpful to get someone in here who's been to Philmont to let us know what we need to do to get ready?" Then keep quiet until it sinks in. Down the road don't be surprised when your PL comes up to you and asks for suggestions as to who they might contact about coming in and having someone tell us about getting ready for Philmont. It won't be word for word your suggestion, but it will definitely be their idea at that point. Your answer, "Hey that's a great idea, I have a couple of people I know that just went last summer, I'll get you their phone numbers." No, this is NOT a problem, this is a great opportunity for the boys to take a breather and hone their leadership skills. Don't worry about quantity at this point, focus on quality. Everything is cyclical and the boys will be coming in down the road. I teach that within the patrol everyone is the leader at one point or another. You will get the deer in the headlight look at that point because it is assumed that the only leader is the PL. Wrong answer. At meal time the GM is the leader, setting up camp QM is the leader, handling the finances and fundraising for the patrol the Scribe is the leader, during devotions the patrol CA is the leader. Leaders working together for the benefit of others is what teamwork is all about. My teaching style uses only one quick lesson that last about 5 seconds. Leadership 101 - "Take care of your boys." Yep that's it. Does the PL take care of his boys? Yep. At meal time does the Grubmaster take care of his boys? Yep, When setting up camp making sure everyone has what they need is that the QM taking care of his boys? Yep! When the Scribe is running a fundraiser for the patrol, is he taking care of his boys? Yep. When the CA has prayers at meals and does an evening vesper devotional at the campfire is he taking care of his boys? Yep. Maybe it's time to start training each other. One can send a couple of hours on a C.O.P.E. course or they can hone their leadership/teamwork amongst themselves. Don't lament what you don't have, celebrate what you do! Stosh

Taking the easy way out is seldom better. It's kind alike looking for the lowest common denominator. It works, but... Stosh

I remember reading that when it first hit print. Stosh

Adult-led, boy-run, is not teaching the boys anything other than how to follow. So why then did you go on for the next several paragraphs supporting what I said? If the older boys are teaching the younger boys, then I don't see it as Adult-led, boy-run. I see it as Boy-led, boy-run. There's a simple solution to that dilemma. Don't have the boys work on the details when they don't understand the complete picture. Planning activities from one month to the next gives the boys a real bad case of myopia. They're going to wake some day and say, "I guess we made it, I think." They had no idea where they were going in the first place so where you end up is just as good a place as any. I find very few people would find satisfaction in that process. So, have THE BOYS sit down and write out the world of their scouting in that troop right now. Current state of affairs kinda thing. That's all for the first session. The second session the boys write out the world of their scouting as it's going to be in 2-3 years. That's their target. Both those activities are purely boy oriented. THEY identify the world that THEY currently see in scouting. Then then identify the world that THEY want to see in scouting. From those two activities, the adults now know HOW TO HELP the boys get to where THEY want to go. They have created their road map. The sheet in front of them is no longer blank. The space they need to start filling out is What is it going to take to get from point A to point B? They don't need adults to point out the way, they just need adults to sit them down and focus their attention on what they think is important for this time and place. After the adults have them sitting down, then they shut up and listen and listen carefully. They can't help if they don't know and understand where the boys are and where they are going. Every six months the boys sit down and do this once again to see where they have progressed and where they have come up short. Are they on the right track or have they wandered off somewhere? This process reminds me of my mom. I had a pretty good sized bedroom when I was a kid. Of course at the end of the day it looked like an explosion had just occurred. I would stand in the doorway and see toys as far as I could focus and totally overwhelmed. One day Mom said, "Look at your feet, what do you see?" to which I answered, "Toys". She said, "Pick up one, just one, and put it away." I did and when I was done I looked at her and asked "What now?". She said, "Look at your feet..." How many of our PL's or SPL when they stand on the verge of a really big responsibility or even our NSP at their first patrol meeting, do we ever tell them to just look at their feet and start there. Too many times I see adults showing them rather than letting them do it themselves. That's a really bad precedent to start at the beginning. All it teaches the boys is that the adults are capable to doing it for us, all we need to do is figure out how to keep them doing it. And these boys are masters of playing dumb. If that's the kind of boy-led you want, then knock yourself out. Stosh

Pack18Alex, I am one who fully understands where you are coming from. It is exactly what I have with my troop right now. About the only difference is my boys are all new and a couple might now be 12 years old. Adult-led, boy-run, is not teaching the boys anything other than how to follow. We are not here to teach the boys to follow, but to lead and it's not an easy task and most adults will opt out for the easy option of just doing it for them. Parents do this, schools do this, churches do this, sports teams do this, it's is how we have been taught to run youth organizations. No one seldom takes the time to teach the youth how to lead themselves, an adult life expectation that will some how miraculously be accomplished on their 18th birthday. As we can tell by the number of today's thirty-something youth still living in their parent's basement hooked on video games, that this isn't working out very well. As one of two adults working with these boys, the rules of the game are simple. 1) Failure is an option 2) All activities must fall within the guidelines of the BSA. 3) Patrol-method is used. Everything else is fair game. While I don't directly involve myself in the planning and execution of patrol activities, I do offer suggestions when the boys request them and if they are heading for a major cliff, I'll toss in an extra here and there. But if they wish to continue to go over the cliff, I just make preparations for picking up the pieces. We have only the one patrol and the ASM and I view ourselves entirely as support personnel in the troop. If they have a question, we will answer it. If they want training on something, We will provide it. If they need help with something, we will lend a hand. The only thing we will not do is anything they can do for themselves. Some of the boys have made the SCOUT rank and earned a couple of MB's from summer camp. We have been at this for 7-8 months now and not much progress in rank achievement. They were horsing around at last night's meeting quite a bit because they were playing with their knot ropes and Granny Jones (one of the boys that really had difficulty doing his square knot) was jumping all over his patrol mates because he had mastered the square knot and had moved on to the other ones and this buddies hadn't. There was a lot of laughter as Granny Jones introduced himself to Granny Olson each time Mr. Olson screwed up his knots. They were learning and they were having a lot of fun doing so. I just sat in the room and enjoyed their banter. Nothing got signed off for advancement because they didn't bring their books. 7 months into the program and only 3 Scouts, but they're having a ton of fun. Advancement will come as time goes on, but they are planning their activities, they are organizing their patrol structure, they are going out doing their service project, activities and going camping. They are in uniform and they are having fun. Did I mention they are having fun? Oh, and the 6 of them sold $6,000+ worth of popcorn this year. The CO his having a fall fundraiser and the boys will be doing table busing for their dinner. This is a service project and the boys decided they will not accept anything for doing a Good Turn and that means each boy will need to bring $10 to pay for their meal that night. A month of C.O.P.E could not produce the teamwork and camaraderie these boys have achieved to this point. While they are not advancing and accomplishing what an adult would consider progress, they are still accomplishing a solid groundwork for others to follow. Their bonding as a group is quite remarkable in that this week we met on Monday as we have since we started, but starting next week we will be meeting on Tuesdays because one of the boys had a major change in his life schedule and Mondays no longer worked for him. No one else had a problem with just moving to Tuesday, and so, they decided next week it's Tuesday from now on. I'm thinking that would never had happened if it was an adult led program. Adult led usually works out well for the adults. Boy led usually works out well for the boys. If one's adults are getting frustrated because they boys aren't meeting their expectations, too bad! Grow up and get over it. This is not the adults' program, it's the boys'. Let them have it and let them set the expectations. If one is going to run a boy-led program, one has to be aware that things are not going to be focused on normal expectations of an adult-led program. The boys are getting organized, they are fed at every outing, they work together well at the patrol competitions (2 3rd place ribbons at their first ever camporee), very successful fundraising, planning out service projects, getting ready for incoming Webelos this winter, and all activities are surprisingly well attended. And where as an adult should I be leading them? I'm just following along trying to keep up. Stosh

Whatever it takes to keep warm! There are a few restless sleepers or people who curl into fetal position that find themselves not on the pads for most of the night. This might be the solution they need for a wider sleep area. Stosh

Of course it's good, it's not processed here in the US, the same company that produces Danish hams makes SPAM for Europe. Stosh