Stosh

Nope, that's not what I said at all. I said the sacred writings of the religions say that homosexuality is not acceptable. Everything after that you have assumed I have said and found it helpful to your cause to conclude something I never said. Whether a person follows the guidance of such sacred writings or not is up to them, but whatever they do doesn't change the writings of the sacred manuscripts. The reason we have so many different flavors of Christianity, Judaism and Islam is because humans have reasoned within their own minds what they want the scriptures to mean to them. What one may conclude has no relevance to what the sacred writing said. It is only relevant to the person making the justification. We all have free will and we all have to answer to the choices we make. Stosh

If one is going to look at the teachings of the religion and what people actually do, one is going to find a differing opinion from every individual. A religion is not what people practice and or justify in their minds, it is the code by which the religion is based, Bible, Koran and Talmud. One can't get a straight answer to a simple question out of most people practicing what they call "their" religion. I was not referring to the people, I was referring to the religion, that is it's teachings from their sacred manuscripts. As far as judging the people as has been alluded to, that too is a human characteristic of how one applies or ignores the religious principles. I'm thinking that according to some of the news articles on the subject, the Muslims probably deal with them the harshest. I guess what it amounts to is how far does an individual deviate from the written codes before they are no longer considered part of that religion. Stosh

Had your house checked for radon? Just bought a new house and it cost the seller to put in a radon mitigation system. Pull up the carpet and the asbestos tiles are underneath. Some are cracked and broken, that means asbestos is loose. Same for older homes forced air sealants, and then we can start with the asbestos shingles on your house. Kinda makes one want to move off into the woods to be a hermit and only have to worry about the Monsanto run off in the drinking water. There's so much stuff out there that one can't imagine how one person's smoke is all that important. It's always easier to hassle an individual here and there than it is to address any real problems out there that would take a bit more than a minor rant to deal with it. Stosh

Is this one of those "teaching moments" we hear so much about? Or is it just one of those plain old "Oh $..t" moments? And the really sad thing about it is, it is really easy to do it right. I have done it correctly for every unit I've formed and gee... I've never had a problem. Stosh

I don't think it's a stretch to say that homosexuality is not acceptable in at least three of the main religions of the world, Muslim, Judaism, and Christianity, and yet it is through non-religious measures allowed. I think Christianity sums it up pretty well, "Render unto Caesar that which belongs to Caesar...." This is the standard civil marriage that's always been there, now open to homosexuals. However, now the government (Caesar) wants to impose religious rights to their decision. That is so totally anti Freedom of Religion it's hard to believe that the general population doesn't see it. It's always surprising how humankind can always find a way to self-justify itself on just about any topic. And it's unfortunate that much of the freedom this country once had is now gone. It was a fragile balance to keep it, but now the effort to preserve it has waned. Stosh

I'm not "lucky", the system just works, at least for us. There are no dues*. All money raised by the troop goes into the general fund. No ISA's at all. If someone thinks that is unfair, because their kid worked harder than the next guy, that's their choice to do so, but we're not going to change the troop financial structure to accommodate a few whiners. When it comes to summer camp, camporees, etc. the committee looks at the available funds and decides what support can be offered to the boys going and say, everyone gets $xx.xx for summer camp, for example. Boy not going to summer camp aren't shortchanged on anything. If is important that they get a cut of the funds, all they have to do is go to summer camp. * Dues per se are not collected, but "dues" are collected on a patrol basis for the boys to learn about funding an organization, i.e. the patrol. The money they collect this way goes into their patrol funds and can be spent anyway they wish, on camperships, equipment, or whatever the patrol decides. If the QM puts in a request for a new stove and the committee thinks the old one is good enough, the boys can simply go out and buy it on their own. It is important that these boys acquire their dues by their own effort. They are not to ask for handouts from their parents. This way they have skin in the game when it comes to spending it wisely. If this set-up is not acceptable to any parent, they are free to shop around for a troop that better fits their financial situation. My boys know that the troop is located in a somewhat depressed area of the community and the boys that are better off know that they are subsidizing some of the less fortunate boys in the troop. The boy that had $2500 worth of popcorn sales this year is the PL and he was the one that was instrumental in setting up the troop in this financial situation. Keep it in perspective as well. $2500 fundraising by one scout and $400 by the other has no effect on their parents' pocketbooks. Fundraising comes from the charity of the community. The boys also know that if the fundraising is not successful, they will receive less or even no financial support from the troop funds because there will be no funds to consider. At that point the parents and boys start covering the cost of things from their own pockets. Stosh

As oneself the simple question: "Who holds the tax-exempt status in a Boy Scout unit?" "There are a universe of things you can worry about if you wish ---- help yourself." - Yep, I worry about following the scout Oath and Law. Like I said honesty is not mentioned in the Oath and Law, but somehow it gets traction in the BSA and is worth worrying about. Stosh

A ticked off parent and a lawyer can draw those inconsistencies into line rather quickly and a scout is supposed to be somewhat honest..... even though that issue is vague or nonexistant in the Scout Law and Oath. Read through it a couple of times, it just isn't there. Stosh Oh, by the way, my troop has an account opened up under the CO's EIN and we use their tax exempt number on our purchases. It, too, is possible and quite easy to set it up the correct way. Stosh

We just explain to the parents that if the money isn't there, we can't fund the unit. The popcorn sales this year ranged from sales for an individual $400 to $2500. While that might be quite a bit unfair in most parents eyes, there's one boy out there paying the way for the others. He's the PL and "he's taking care of his boys". And yet, how many troops out there would be elated if the minimum sales for their boys was $400. Relative to the unit it was kinda unbalanced. Relative to Scouting in general, it was pretty darn good. Considering that no money goes into any ISA and that all the money goes into the general fund of the troop, it's kind of an anomaly, but I have NO ONE complaining. I also have one parent from every family registered in an adult position. Stosh

$15/month collected by the boys to be held in their patrol fund (Scribe/QM teaching tool). The money must be raised by the boy, it cannot be a handout from their parents (A scout is Thrifty teaching tool). All fundraising funds go to the Troop as a whole. Stosh

When the courts ruled that marriage is no longer between one man and one woman, yes, they opened it up to homosexuals, but Pandora's box is now open on polygamy as well and that has more religious support amongst Christians, Jews and Muslims than one might expect. Leave it up to a knee-jerk reaction to really mess things up. But let's remember who was promoting the change. Stosh

As a person in ctgolfer's situation, I do not see duty to God as respecting other's beliefs. To me that's what being reverent means. Duty to God is a lot more than just respecting others. Stosh

"Same thing for annual planning. We start with the BSA Calendar, we know which Council/District events Troop wants (obviously reverify with them), black out dates that adult leaders need blacket out, add the CO events we're supposed to volunteer at, add the joint Pack/Troop activities, and then back to the PLC for filling out the rest of the calendar, guided by an adult. But what ends up happening now, is nobody is aggregating the BSA Council/District and CO events, so they come up and the PLC is dumbfounded. Sure it ought to be a learning experience, but when the CO expects our help and nobody shows up, that's a problem. When the Troop/Pack are supposed to do something together, the Adult led Pack needs an answer, not the PLC will discuss in 4 months." And without teaching the boys how to do this, without their "buy into" the process, without their commitment to the CO activities, etc. this process will need to be done every year with the same results that have been occurring up to this point. So every year the BSA/CO events aren't coordinated, The Troop/Pack events aren't coodinated, and nobody shows up and the CO is ticked. Keep doing what you're doing and it will always stay the same. No one's going to change their behavior unless the process becomes personally uncomfortable. My boys received the Council Calendar within a week of it being published. They have all brought in their School's Calendars, and we have access to the CO's general calendar for each month. Once we have collected up 12 of them, we will be able to plan out more than a month at a time with them. The operative dynamics here is the BOYS have all this information, and the PL has a loose-leaf notebook with them all in there. They make their plans accordingly and they know exactly what's going on. Sure the adults sit on the cusp of things making an occasional "observation" while the boys are learning. It's a new troop and all the boys are all about 12 years old. At the beginning we missed an event here and there and the boys were disappointed. It taught them to be a bit more vigilant and they aren't missing as much as they did at the beginning. "But, the inadvertent trolling from well meaning posters here telling me why everything is okay are derailing the thread. There have been some great concrete suggestions, and warnings about losing the boy-run aspects, but lots of back and forth about the SM which is totally irrelevant. The SM is awesome, but like all people, they have limitations. Drop me in a forest for survival purposes, I'd drop dead, the SM would build a shelf and be fine. Drop me a mount of BSA paperwork to get everyone's awards on time, mine are turned out, digitally signed, and ready to go in 48 hours, the SM would be months before he remembered where he misplaced things. We all have different skills, and we want to relocate things where the SM isn't skilled to the committee, but my question here was how to do so without interfering in the programming." As inadvertently trolling as it may seem to you, it would seem that the well meaning posters have told you what you needed to consider, but you keep blowing them off. SM is great with the boys, with the woodcraft, with those kinds of programing things. Okay, that's solved. The committee is good with the behind the scenes paperwork. Okay that's solved. Define the duties and you're done. They don't clash or over-run each other. It's perfect and yet, there's a problem? I don't see it. "For example, dates of religious holidays, Council Camporees, and the joint Pack/Troop stuff are all kind of fixed. If the PLC have 8 people from 6 patrols, it'd be a great learning experience to do what we do on the adult side. When the PLC consists of 3 people, with really one patrol, there is a firm limit to what they can do because of the manpower situation. 3 Hours, 3 people, yields 9 Boy-Hours. If the tasks involved are more than 9 Boy-Hours, then the adults should do enough that it is possible for them to get it done in those 9 boy-hours, otherwise, they are being set up for failure. " Huge troop has plenty of boys to do the work. There's a ton of work to be done because the troop is large. Not a problem Small troop has just a few boys to do the work. But there's not a lot of work to be done because the troop is small. Not problem. Quit with the numbers! This is not an accounting/paperwork problem. If you need numbers look at it this way. PL/APL have max 6 other boys to take care of. That's not a big job. SPL/ASPL have 6 PL's to take care of (moderate sized troop). That's not a big job. Huge troop? 12 patrols? Just start adding ASPL's to handle it. No one should have to worry about more than 3 other boys, 6 with the PL/APL or SPL/ASPL people. QM takes care of QM's from the patrols, If more than 6 patrols, add on QM's and patrols to each Scribe take care of Scribes from the patrols, same thing TG, one for each NSP because of the learning curve. Now the NSP's all have PL/APL/TG team to help them get set. Show me where the number are so big that the boys can't handle it????? Otherwise, all I think is happening here is that we are trying to work a process to justify an adult-led program and I don't think one is going to pull it off gracefully because that's not what the BSA teaches or promotes and not many on the forum really want that for their troops even if their current program is adult-led. Yes, adult-led minimizes the possibility of the boys failing, but it also minimizes the possibility of the boys leading as well. I always tell my boys, failure is a good thing. It teaches one to problem solve and work to improve for next time. If you have never failed in your life, how can you as a PL ever "take care of your boys" when they fail? My favorite come back for the boys when things go on the blink is, "I bet you won't be doing it that way next time." Instead of guilt, I usually get a sheepish grin and a quiet, "Nope." in reply. The one thing my boys are not afraid of is failure. I have had boys that were terrified of failure and it kept them from making even the most basic decisions in life. It was rather sad to see. Sometimes it is painful to sit by and let the boys fail, but it is a necessary step in their development process. Stosh

Add to that the committee to help the Chair and a budget amount to cover the cost of it and instead of doing it on a white board, just do it on a 8 1/2 x 11 sheet, collect the filled out ones, make copies, collate into books, send to each parent. Toss the not filled ones in the trash. You're done for the year. I've done this for groups a lot larger than a BSA unit and it always works very well. If posted on the wall, people can scan over them just before being taken down to fill in the open blanks rather than just erasing them from the whiteboard without being able to go back and review the activity further. Stosh

While I do read the news on the internet, I find the full story of the newspaper more enlightening. This digital Sesame Street approach on the internet doesn't really do much for me. I didn't grow up on Sesame Street, I can focus my attention on something for more than 5 seconds. We didn't have ADD/ADHD back when I was a kid, we learned to pay attention for long periods of time. If not, a little dosage of Pavlov corrected it quickly. Stosh

"Yeah, if you don't sign up to work, your boy can't be part of the program." -> There's a PR nightmare just waiting to happen. I'd kinda back off on that one. I did post a couple of times how to get people involved in the units by focusing on activities and NOT on the people themselves. They get pretty vocal once you make them feel guilty enough. Stosh

The Aboriginal Native mythology must be getting in the way of his Christian/Jewish/Muslim/etc. mythology. One might as well use the shotgun approach and tick everyone off while they're at it. Stosh

I also wonder how a unit got an EIN number without being a business entity. I don't think that any business entity exits without some sort of legal recognition and the only legal recognition of a BSA unit is through their CO or some group of "friends of Scouts" that have registered as such with the state. I'd check with a corporate lawyer on all that before I set off on my own. Stosh

It depends on who signs the CO agreement. That is the ownership contract with the BSA. If one can get the bank to go along with, fine. The problem is when the unit shuts down, then things get really ugly. Just depends on who gets stuck with someone else's mess. Unless it is a non-profit organization, one could get into problems with that EIN in that corporate taxes are not being paid. I guess I wouldn't let the cat out the bag anytime soon. Stosh

One can have a small turn out and still do a good job. The problem is not whether or not the activity is cancelled, but whether or not your people are doing a good job to begin with. I would simply cancel all activities until everyone gets on board with being trustworthy. If I were teaching a class, and after driving for 3+ hours found out that only one person showed, I would still hold the class. They might have driven 3+ hours to learn something. If nobody showed, I'd go to another session still being held and learn something on my own. Stosh

Gotta love the "I'm not going to have my kid fundraise for his buddies." Please don't join my troop when your boys is older. He won't last very long. None of my boys got prizes for their participation in Popcorn this year, but one boy sold +$2,500 and got an IPod from the council. The patrol will be getting a monetary sum they can decide on for patrol equipment, activities, etc. The troop will retain some of the funds for awards, rank patches, leader fees, troop flag purchase this year, etc. Once the boys decide on those things, those funds will be released as well. By the way, the individual fundraising totals did not include any patrol show and sell events that everyone showed up for. No one mentioned anything about any ISA's or the fact that someone was or wasn't holding up their end of the deal. I'm thinking the boy with the least amount of individual sales was somewhere in the $3-400 range. Sometimes the "I'm not going to have my kid fundraise...." parent is doing nothing more than a teaching moment for their boy to be selfish and self-centered. Like I said, he won't last very long in a troop working on servant leadership development. Stosh

OR.... The SM is on the right path and everyone else is missing the big picture. Well I'm going out on a limb here and I'm going to defend the SM, not to be a Devil's Advocate, but because I may see something a little differently. The SM is a great guy and the boys like him. That's a fantastic start. Parent's aren't so inclined. Too bad, it's not their program. The SM is a bit disorganized, so an ASM is needed to shore up that gap. No, the boys should be able to organize themselves without adults having to step in and save the day. Leave the cavalry at home. The SM can't see the forest from the trees. Have the boys spelled out for him where they need his help getting them to their goals? The SM is doing just fine, the boys when they feel the pinch will step up. Other adults notice the pinch earlier because they are more aware than teenaged boys. So what. Show me a likable, disorganized, lazy SM that's just a friend to the boys and genuinely likes working with the boys and I'll show you the ideal candidate for a SM of a Boy-Led, Patrol-Method troop. The boys like him, they will seek out his council, but he won't get in their way as they develop their program. Now introduce into that mix an ASM who doesn't think the SM is up to par, steps in where he isn't wanted, starts stirring the pot with the other adults/parents, and things will go down the tube rather quickly for the troop. This ASM needs a coffee mug of his own and a camp chair to sit in so he can sit and watch a friendly, likable SM work with his boys. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Okay, so advancement is a problem. Mantra of a good Servant Leader is, "What can I do to help?" Well, ASM ask the SM if you might be able to help out in this area to make sure the boys are advancing. If he says, no, the PL's are handling it just fine, then one is back to: "What can I do to help?" Ask the SM if you might be able to offer your services to the PL's to see if you could assist them in focusing on their boys' advancement. If the PL's say no, they are doing just fine, what's an ASM supposed to do???? Same thing all over again, he asks, "What can I do to help?" If one says that often enough, when someone does need help, they'll know where to go. Patience is a virtue, not many people are that virtuous. "​The good about the SM: Happy guy. I suspect the scouts like him, at least when he's not signing off reqs. A lot of outdoor skills. He expects the scouts to lead so he won't get in the way when they actually do. The bad: You can't make suggestions. Disorganized. No vision. Is it fair to say he has more confidence than skill and that's why he won't listen to anyone? Another guess is he thinks scouts should just man up and figure it out? That would fit with the comments that he has high standards and no inclination to help anyone get there." Sorry, but I kinda like this SM, I'm thinking he might be doing something right here. Maybe the only one he's listening to are the boys! Stosh

TAHAWK, I don't think there is sufficient paper and ink to fully explain all the dynamics that would go into defining the Patrol Method (PM). This is why the older basic training and even WB training all use the PM in their training so that the participants can learn it by doing it rather than just reading and hearing about it. It's kinda like childbirth. One can read up on all the books, go to lots of classes, collect up stories of what others experienced, etc. But when the baby comes, well, now you know. Until then it just wasn't real. Until one actually starts doing the PM and letting it develop on it's own power of the boys experiencing it, no adult is going to understand unless they were in BS earlier and was fortunate enough to have a SM who used it correctly. Yes we have boys out there that have Eagled under the Adult Led, Troop Method type program and what are they going to do when they become a SM for their boy? And the problem continues on into the next generation. About 20 years ago I made a concerted effort to start working on the Boy Led PM. As an ASM I didn't get much traction but the one patrol I was allowed to experiment with really had a great time. They were the older boys, they were engaged, and they all Eagled. I took on the role of a SM in another troop and went 100% BL-PM. There were doing some really great things. We went from 5 boys to 28 boys in less than 2 years. I was removed from the SM position because the boys were expected to do to much leadership in the troop. (Their words, not mine.) Now I have started from scratch a new troop of Webelos cross-overs using the BL-PM. They are doing really well, catching on quickly and having a great time. And so the myriad of woes brought out on this forum don't seem to be evident in my working with the boys. I don't know if it's because I use the BL-PM or because I'm extremely lucky. But until my luck runs out, it's 100% BL-PM all the way. If one were to define PM to someone I don't think it would make much sense to them. Just like no two childbirths are the same, depending on the different boys involved, the PM is going to mean different things to different people. Some patrols won't have a dynamic style PL, maybe their PL is a more quiet, sensitive style of leader. They both work, but they appear different and function differently, but they are both PM patrols. If one were to write up a definition for PM, one would need a different definition based on every boy who ever was in scouts. Stosh