Stosh

"Follow me, Scouts!" -- "Follow me, Men!" -- "Follow me, Boys!" Naw, I'll stick with boys. I may call them, "my boys," but when the adults talk with them they are always address adults in troop as Mr. ____________. They tend to call each other by first name, but the adults don't. Stosh

And how is providing links to the IRS website, http://www.irs.gov providing misinformation? Sounds like a little agenda going on here. Gotta use the whole quote, not just a bit taken out of context. My CO is a church, that makes it a non-profit business that they must file a non-profit tax return and an annual report on it's status every year. Our troop is part of the CO's business and thus can and do use their EIN and tax-exempt status. We do not use BSA's non-profit EIN, or their tax-exempt status. Stosh

Okay, let's compromise, how's about Boy Managed Patrols. Stosh

http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employed/Responsible-Parties-and-Nominees Who's Social Security Number is on file as owner of the Pack. They might not want the exposure a false EIN could mean for them. http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employed/Employer-ID-Numbers-EINs EIN is basically a business Tax ID number. It means one must be legally established as a business. Most BSA units are not. I could go on and on with wildly exaggerated statements from the IRS, but I think that most people who want to do it right get the picture. Stosh

DuctTape, When I refer to age based patrols, it is a combination of boys of similar ages that want to be together. If left to identify their own membership, not many patrols of 16-17 year olds want 11-12 year olds in their group. What I have seen, however, is the NSP hanging together, getting to know each other, building relationships and then scattered throughout the other existing patrols by adults. The new boys don't like it any better than the older boys. When it comes to activities, if the ages are mixed, then the patrols need to be broken up in order for some of the boys to attend. It's awkward and does a real number on the patrol's esprit-de-corps. Age based patrols is NOT an 11 year olds patrol, 12 year olds patrol, etc. that have to progress to the next patrol on their birthday. Instead it is a patrol of similiar aged boys that want to hang together. They can attend high adventure as a group, they can do what they want as a group. As a boy-led, patrol-method program, the boys can determine their patrol membership at any point in time. If one boy moves out of the area and now the patrol is down to 7 boys, they can recruit anywhere they want to come up with their 8th person. It could be a boy in another patrol, another troop, or someone who's interested in joining scouting. I don't care, but the boys do, so that's fine with me. It's always interesting how patrols campaign for new members when they are short members. The competition is really intense. I even had one boy that needed a POR so he announced he was a PL and started to recruit from other patrols. He didn't pull it off and when all was said and done he still needed a POR. Even the NSP preferred one of their own over the boy recruiting. Ever hear about PL's where the boys don't listen to him? Probably because he shouldn't be the PL. Then to make it more difficult, the adults make that person stay for 6 months and make the boys in the patrol suffer. Then they have to deal with the discipline problems that arise from such a situation. There are no term limits, nor terms in my troop. If there are elections, it's at the boys' discretion. And these selection processes can happen at any time if at all. The SPL is supposed to be elected by the troop. I have never done that. I just have the PL's come up with the person they want to have as their mentor. Usually it's one of their own or someone who has had a lot of experience as PL and has stepped down to let a patrol member be the PL. 99.9% of the time they choose well. In any case, all this is hearsay observations on my part. I usually get someone saying, Johnny is now our PL and that's the end of it for adult participation in the process. I can usually tell the patrol realignments at flag ceremony when the boy is standing in a new spot with a new patrol. Stosh

Gee, I've promoted this for some time on the forum, but everyone seems to be in a big hurry to mix the patrols so the older boys have a chance to mentor the younger boys. Now maybe the will see the value in doing it as it should be. Maybe these are the kinds of things that solve the older boys leaving, older boys being bored, older boys getting their Eagle and taking off, older boys not wanting to go the same summer camp for the 7th straight year problems. And just maybe, it is the "fumes", exhaust fumes?, perfumes? or maybe it's just that the adults are stinking up the program because they have some idealized concept of how a scout troop should be run. I think some of the things SM's complain about on this forum just might be of their own creation. Not everything we see happening on this form is a result of the boy's misbehaving, sometime it's the adults messing where they don't belong. Leave the boys alone, let them choose their own patrols, it's boy led, adults, myob. Patrol membership is not an adult task to perform in the troop. Stosh

If your son is ever going to be a DC, SPL, ASPL, TG, PL or APL, the book will come in handy. If he's only going to hold the PL position for 6 month for rank advancement and never do organizational leadership for the troop, then, yes, the purchase was probably a waste. Stosh

At rechartering I would assume that all these items were handled correctly when the unit formed. Unless the CO changes, everything should be unnecessary to review. However, if these things were not set up correctly then it could be a problem. If a unit has their own EIN and tax-exempt status it shouldn't matter if they jump from one CO to another. They're operating independently of the CO as far as the IRS is concerned and outside the expectations of the BSA. Legally the CO owns the unit and if the unit has it's own EIN and independent bank account, if they move to another CO and take the money under their EIN, it amounts to double bookkeeping and those funds are hidden from the CO and when taken, amount to theft as well. About the only time anyone gets any information on these things is when a unit is formed or when the CO changes (but only if you ask). The unit may move to a new CO, but the bank account is still under the old CO's EIN. To "keep/transfer" that money amounts to theft. It belongs to the old CO. Go to the new CO, get their EIN, set up a new account and start over with a zero balance. And yes, I have dropped my position as a Crew Adviser because my committee pull these kinds of shenanigans and I didn't want any part of such things. The tax exempt issue is altogether different. Either the unit has one of their own under their own EIN or they are covered by their CO's tax exempt status if they are using the CO's EIN. If they are using their own EIN they have to have their own tax exempt documents. If they went out and got their own EIN and then assumed they are covered by BSA or CO tax exempt status, they have assumed incorrectly. And seriously? I don't know what happens to the Agreement between the CO and BSA if the unit has it's own independent status with an IRS issued EIN. If the unit us chartered under a fraternal organization, I don't know how all that works but would need to be checked out to make sure the unit is covered with the appropriate legalities. With the number being an Employer Identification Number (EIN), it means that the IRS has assumed the entity has set itself up as a business capable to having employees under some legal status. Further application is necessary to establish not for-profit status absolves it from having to pay income and sales taxes on their income and expenses. They still must file an annual tax return stating their status. Otherwise, all purchases are subject to sales and use taxes and all money taken in is subject to corporate income taxes. I don't know how it works for a tax exempt CO to own another for-profit business, or worse yet, let the IRS know it is a business entity without having filed and maintained the correct legal documents for that entity. Now it needs a lawyer to sort it all out. Stosh

Yep the ISA is why BSA came out with their new policy. They are trying to protect their people even when they refuse to be protected. Stosh

I just learned how to make my own. I'm still working on the Somoans (or what's the new PC name for them?) Stosh By the way, I still buy from girls in uniform selling cookies. I'm not going to punish the girls because the adults are being rude and arrogant.

Can't remember the last time I picked off a tick and with our area infested with Lymes, that's a good thing. I really don't like the idea of dousing myself with Deet either. Wild raspberries, hawthorn, buck thorn, wild roses and such really take their toll on the legs, extra few layers is really helpful. It might look a bit weird, but I'm wearing the same pants I bought when I first started as an ASM (1993). The leggings prolong the life of the material, The cotton leggings might be a bit warm in the summer, but 3-4 weeks of poison ivy rash vs. looking a bit dorky? I'll take dorky, thank you very much. One has to be really careful taking off the leggings after being in poison ivy territory and be sure to wash really well before using again. There's a reason why the soldiers of WW I and II had leggings. Depending on the area I am hiking in, I have also been known to wear the leather. They are hot, they are uncomfortable, but once it was worth it when I took a timber rattler strike and he just bounced off. There are a lot of timber rattlers in our area and I happened to step on one before he had a chance to rattle. After that I am a bit more cautious in snake country and don't always wear the leather as much. And I never thought to use it to hold my spoon. Stosh

And if your unit has their own EIN and tax-exempt status they are on the IRS's radar. Not really were I want to be considering the "reputation" the BSA has with governmental entities. Stosh

And once again the point is missed. Driving 60 mph in a 55 mph zone is illegal whether one gets caught or not. So are going to teach, by example, our boys to drive 55 or 60? Everyone can decide that for themselves. Over the past many years, back-seat drivers have often warned me about speed traps along the road. Some of them even commented about my not being observant because I didn't slow down. Well when one has their cruise control punched in on the speed limit, one doesn't have to slow down, nor do they need to be watching for speed traps. I don't know if anyone has heard of a BSA unit being audited, but my unit cannot be audited. It is owned by the CO and uses their EIN and falls under their tax exemption. The IRS doesn't even know we exist. And that's the way I like it. Stosh

On another thread, I commented that when the boys back out of an activity I hook up with the Mrs. and we go instead. Taking pictures of all the fun we had, I was told, was like rubbing salt into the wounds and putting down the boys. I also would visit places and take pictures of things I think the boys would be interested in for future activities. That was heavily frowned upon by some, too. I guess handing out travel brochures and BSA literature on high adventure is frowned upon too. Needless to say I have pretty much ignored such advice. Also with two groups, why not have the boys realign themselves so that the campers can go with a full contingent and the non-campers can stay home. Sounds like a win/win to me. While the boys do keep the patrols relatively stable on leadership and membership, there can be changes occurring at any time. There's no such thing as a term of office for anyone and membership is determined by who wants to be with whom. I pretty much stay out of the whole process and it works well for the boys. Pretty much eliminates all the bickering and squabbling. If implemented, the boys that want to camp would group together and those that didn't would group together. A camper surely would not want to be part of a patrol that didn't camp. The "rules" should be he gets to decide such things. 6-8 boys in a patrol and a PL... Let me know what you decide. If they get 2 weeks into the program and the PL they elected based on popularity turns out to be a dud, then have another election and get someone in there that will do the job. Oh, the PL needed a POR for advancement? Well, he had better start looking around for something else because PL isn't in his future anytime soon. And how much hassle and hair-pulling does this involve for adults? Absolutely NONE! That's the beauty of the whole thing, the boys have no one to blame but themselves when all hell breaks loose. This way I don't have to go on the forum and ask for help on how to deal with these boys. They have to deal with it themselves, they have more skin in the game than I do. Stosh

My Web I boys earned their AOL before their first year was completed. The last Pack meeting of the "year" (spring cookout) they got their AOL recognition but the patches were already on their shirts. They got their arrow plaques at the picnic. They wore their AOL patch their Web II year and crossed-over whenever they turned 10.5 and felt like it. Some of the boys held off the entire year so they could compete in PWD as Web II. Some of the boys were bored and wanted to get into Boy Scouts just as soon as they could. It made no difference to me what they wanted. Stosh

First of all I would have a bit of a discussion/mentoring/coaching/tirading with the PL and APL about what leadership is all about and reflect those sentiments when it comes to signing off on POR requirements. I have no problem with not signing off when the work isn't done (and my boys know it). As far as going in the outdoors without them, make sure you don't take pictures and bring back to show them what they missed. There are a few on the forum who think that is a self-esteem buzz kill. It's kinda too bad that my boys don't get any self-esteem stroking in my troop, but they get a ton of self-respect, which is far more valuable in the long run. I've done the invite the boys and go anyway a ton of times. Eventually they will get their toe wet and find out it really is a fun time. Patience, need patience. Stosh

Yep, trust your boys, they will surprise you if you don't interrupt them before they get a chance. Stosh

A single vote doesn't sound all that significant, but in reality, contrary to popular belief, this is not a country of individuals and individual rights. It was set up that each person can have an equal say in what's going on and that elected officials when they don't follow through can be replaced by others who will. But today we hear a ton of garbage surrounding the issue of someone's individual rights being stepped on, so they in turn step on someone else's. This process repeats itself ad nausium. So what we end up with is a society so afraid of itself that it has become socially stagnant with PCism. Well people who originally came to this country came with a dream and got a vote. Well, the dream's gone, but I would suggest that people don't give up the vote too. Stosh

I find that the more material one gives the boys the less likely they are to read and retain that information. So I don't use the handbooks other than for reference material. I teach my leadership to the boys in the form of just a couple of phrases that they can easily remember. The first lesson pertains to leader as leading and that phrase is "Take care of your boys." It encompasses servant leadership (which is is in the PL HB and it gives an overview of "whatever it takes" to get it done. The second lesson the boys get pertains to the leader as following. This is really what teamwork is all about, relinquishing one's leadership temporarily to another leader. That phrase is, "What can I do to help." The third lesson... well, there isn't one. The first two do just fine. Last night my 12 year old boys did a service project for their CO. The CO was having a lefse/meatball dinner. We all showed up 15 minutes early, everyone all in full uniform. The Church Lady in charge saw us coming and said it was nice of the boys to offer to help. She then looked at the adults, but before she could say anything more, my PL piped up, introduced himself, and asked, "What can we do to help?" After being instructed on doing the table busing, he went to each boy and made sure that some were assigned to clearing and others were to put out clean silverware and napkins. Over the course of the evening other youth from the church were there to work, but at the end when cleanup was being done, chairs were being stacked away, table cloths folded and tables taken down, the only people under 18 that were helping were in scout uniforms. The boys did get in a wee bit of trouble, however. The boys all agreed that this would be a service project and that everyone came to work. They all brought their $10 and paid for their meals. It would seem that the workers were supposed to eat free. When the president of the congregation mentioned this to the PL, the PL responded, "If we get something in return, then we can't count this as our Good Turn for the day." After three hours into a four hour activity, I finally went over to my PL and told him to take a break and have his meal. He said he was too busy to eat right then, but I said I would fill in for him while he ate. He looked at me and I said, "That's how I take care of my boys." He smiled and went off to buy his food ticket. Oh, by the way. We had 100% scout attendance at this service project activity. But the boys also invited their parents and siblings to come and help, which increased our number of helpers quite a bit. The boys stayed until the Church Lady in charge told the boys, there is nothing more that needed to be done, because they kept asking "What can I do to help." Stosh

Some of us train young boys to be young men and then trust them with their learning. Others train them camping skills until they are young men and then wonder whether they learned anything along the way when it comes to actually growing up. I have known SM's that wouldn't trust a 17 year old PL to take his patrol off out of sight of the adults, and then even when he turns 18 wouldn't trust him to watch the boys properly. So what does that tell you about the disservice this SM did to that boy? At summer camp I had 12 year old boys wandering all over the place (as buddies of course) that at any given time I didn't know where they were. There were only 4 of them, but a Scout is Trustworthy, and until proven otherwise, I assume all my boys are following the Scout Law. Those that did break those Laws, found it was easier to maintain them rather than having to start all over from scratch. If done correctly, the older boys will begin to sound like you when they are hanging around the new boys. I don't have a program for older boys mentoring younger boys, they just kinda do it naturally. Stosh

This is one of the first lessons I learned as an adult working with kids. They are not as dumb as we adults think they are. When they have skin in the game and allowed to make choices on their own, yes occasionally they'll make dumb choices (but then so do adults), but for the most part they are nervous about doing it right so they work hard at it and do well. Stosh

I believe others caught the point of the comment, sorry not everyone did. You are correct, we haven't had concentration camps in America since 1945 so only the older generation actually experienced them. And because the Indians were foreign nations in the way of our colonial expansion, "The only good Indian, is a dead Indian," doesn't apply here. And of course handing out small pox blankets to reservation Indians, (again with the concentration camps), and Wounded Knee don't apply but I'm thinking the Ludlow Massacre might show what the military can do to it's citizens, such as women and children. Shall we talk about how the US was the last developed country to abolish slavery? But as we all know, "those people" weren't anymore American citizens than the Indians. A five minute Google research project will really tone down one self-righteous pride in America. Hiroshima and Nagasaki are the only time in human history where nuclear power has ever been used against another human being and we can be proud of the fact that we were able to start it all. I'm thinking we've done a pretty good job of spinning away our political ambitions over the years. If you don't believe me, take a look at a "history" book in today's schools that let our children know that our Founding Fathers were terrorist. And I didn't bring the Nazis into it, I brought the gentleman who was the master of media propaganda into it. As far as good old Honest Abe, it was his intention to send all the slaves back to Africa. In '63 with the Emancipation Proclamation it is surprising that only the slaves in the rebellious states were freed and only to economically cripple the Confederate ability to wage war and keep England and France from recognizing Confederate sovereighnty. As a matter of fact up until that point, if the Confederates would have laid down their arms they could have kept their slavery. Spin that one for the Great Emancipator who emancipated no one. It wasn't until the adoption of the 14th Amendment to the Constitution that slavery was abolished and that happened well after Lincoln's death. It's time to take off the rose colored glasses Pollyanna. The US political system isn't Kansas anymore. Stosh

Calico, The problem lies in the efforts of the IRS going after such organizations as Booster Clubs. They all rely on a tax-exempt status, but are often found to be giving individuals credits rather than expending for the welfare of the whole team. The IRS has stepped in and fined these people big time when this happens. Are are a number of ways that Booster Clubs are getting around this. Instead of being an independent tax-exempt organization they become "part of the school" they are boosting for, thus relying on the schools tax-exempt status instead of one of their own. This is the same as a scout unit relying on the tax-exempt status of it's CO. However, if the CO is not a tax-exempt organization, they will need to become an independent tax-exempt organization, with legal status and file an annual tax form to maintain it. Fees for the annual report will also need to be paid. It's complicated, but doable. Simply being a BSA unit does not automatically grant tax-exempt status to the unit. They do not fall under the umbrella of BSA because they are "franchised" off to CO's and are exclusively owned by the CO's and fall under the CO's legal status, not BSA. The way the Booster Clubs got into trouble is they did not establish themselves under a tax-exempt entity, i.e. the school or one of their own creation and when caught, were obligated to pay back taxes, penalties and fines which often was more than what they had taken in. Of course all those who claimed charitable contributions on the organization were also at risk. While a few units do go through the motions and make sure they are covered and at no risk, there are others out there that are pretty much free-wheeling it and/or doing strange things like setting up their own EIN thinking they are "automatically" a tax-exempt business entity. Unfortunately they are not. And while playing the odds on not getting caught at it has pretty good odds, the Booster Clubs all of a sudden found out those odds were overnight, stacked against them. What's not to say that after they get done with the Booster Clubs they don't set their sights on the next source of tax revenue. Let's see, who's taking in a ton of money under questionable setups? I can withstand an IRS audit, but can everyone say that? Stosh

Love it! Stosh