Stosh

Eagle94, Calico's recommendation for not having a strong ASPL is because many of the troops are not well versed in servant leadership. If the boy in your troop is doing his best to make the SPL successful (which is what the ASPL is supposed to be doing) then I think it would be okay to have him as his mentor guide. If he's the kind of kid that likes to run the show, then go with what Calico suggests. From what you are describing, it might be just fine, he sounds like he's taking his leadership lead from the SM who's there to help, not lead. If he's in the running for TG, your son might want him as ASPL to mentor another person as TG as well. A good servant leader can be infectious in the troop. However, like Calico said, now is the time to step back and if you need to feed information to the SPL do it through the SM. That role is the one you need now whether your son is the SPL or not. Stosh

Well, this happened 50 years ago. I did make 2C, but only after 4 years. I didn't have parents that stepped in and made things all nice and easy, we just lived with the cards that were dealt. I did get one MB... Stamp Collecting, which I haven't done since I got the MB. I had a good time with my buddies, but eventually none of us were progressing. I don't think any of us made FC. Well once we got to HS, Civil Air Patrol became an option and BSA was a thing of the past at that point. The Morse Code thingy did pay off. I was a Radioman First Class by function and organizationally, Crew Chief. Some things in life work out, others don't. I can assure you that in the 4 years I was with the troop, no one got Eagle. And it was the only troop in town so going somewhere else was not an option. Stosh

Welcome to the forum, NevillesLostToadf! We were just doing a thread on this the last couple of weeks. Take a look at the thread under Cub Scouts titled "Pack Meeting Ideas". That might give you a start and then if you have more questions we'd be happy to speak to your specific concerns. Stosh

No, the one planned event is our winter cabin campout where all the potential Web II boys from all the packs are invited out to spend the day sledding, hiking, having lunch and getting to know the boys in the Troop and the other boys in the other packs. Right now we have 6 boys that come from 4 different packs and attend 5 different schools. They came in over the course of 12 months getting ready for organizing our new troop. Maybe we can be a bit more flexible and not so rigid because of our diversity. Our community is 50,000+ so we have a few troops in the area. My boys come from all over that community and only 3 of them are rather geographically located in the area of the troop meeting. I did pick up one boy that was discouraged in the troop he was in and when the all-call went out from the Council office for help, we snatched him up. He's doing just fine in the troop. Stosh

"Oh, and drop that non-consecutive term rule ASAP. It's idiotic. If everyone feels one boy is the best for the job for 10 terms straight, let him have it." Cheesh, qwazse, do you need to be so "blunt". I for one would drop all the adult imposed rules on this whole process. I don't have any such rules in any of the troops I have run and never seem to have a shortage of leaders and or problems getting the good ones to step up and lead. I did hit an all time record last summer with my not yet Scout rank PL doing the SPL thingy at camp. He did just fine! I not only don't have consecutive term rules, I don't even have term rules. How they select/elect/arm wrestle/draw straws, or whatever they do to come up with a PL, it doesn't make any difference to me. If someone isn't doing their job, they can be replaced at the drop of a hat. If they are doing a great job, they can hold that position until they age out. The only suggestion I have ever put forward to influence the selection process was to suggest that the PL's get together and select someone they want to have as their #1 support person to be the SPL. The troop officers are kinda selected that way too, PL's decide who they want to work with in terms of the QM, Scribe etc. The TG is often selected by the NSP people. Who do you want to help you guys get going as a patrol. They can pick anyone in the troop. Sometimes it's their DC, but I have seen them pick a JASM/Eagle who did a really nice job of getting them up and running. Some of my renegade reputation comes from the fact that I let the boys run their own show and these things aren't critical to the operation of the Troop, so I just let them have at it. Surprisingly they seem to work out well for the boys because it was their idea and they have accepted ownership of it. Stosh

When my boys was in scouts, it was an agreement amongst the adult leaders that someone other than Dad who will deal with the son. I mentored the SM's son and he mentored mine, kinda thingy. All the leaders followed this policy and it seemed to work out very nicely. As far as your son is concerned, he needs to pick an experienced mentor as ASPL. With two patrols, potentially 3 the position is not that critical to be good at. Advise him to use this time to learn from the ASPL and let him take the lead so that the learning is the focus of the relationship. If your boy is a perfectionist that can be a problem and you seem to have identified one of many problems with that. A perfectionist is often driven by the fear of failure. That seems to be the biggest hurdle I have had to deal with when dealing with these kinds of people. They just can't seem to see that by doing nothing they are doing something, i.e. failing. I have had boys that were so afraid of failing they would do nothing! They couldn't make choices, they couldn't offer suggestions, they just froze up and did the deer in the headlight routine. These were smart kids, very smart, 4.0 GPA smart, but they couldn't lead because of their fear. I draw this problem out in the open at the very beginning of my leadership training with the new boys. Don't make little mistakes and try and cover them up. Make your mistakes boldly, you're really not going to hide anything from anyone anyway. I also let them know the best leaders have made the most mistakes. It is the boy that knows how to recover from mistakes that makes the best leaders. If you have never made a mistake in your life, how can you ever mentor someone who has? My boys all know that if they think they are invincible to mistakes, guess again. I tell them outright that I'm going to make sure they have the opportunity to fail because it's important to learn how to deal with it. Your son has had a hand of cards dealt to him. Now he has to play them. Your job as Dad is to not to get involved, but instead observe, and wait for any and all opportunities where he does well and give a wee bit of "I noticed you did well" kinda thingy. Save up the applause until the end. The oopses, just ignore. Don't get involved with those. As Dad you are the cheerleader, not the judge. Let the SM field the oopses that's his job as SM. If he wants to bring up the subject of failure, "Hey, Dad, I screwed up and need some advice...." then it's time to sit down and listen to his concerns and focus on how he deals with the problem, not the problem itself. The problems are always going to be there, how he deals with them is what is important and what will change over time. Remember at that point you are not ASM, you are DAD. Stosh

With 4 potential feeder packs in our area, planning on holding just one cross-over is impossible. We have different packs coming to visit, we go to different packs to do special preso's to recruit, we hold cross-overs whenever the boys are ready, one pack did 3 cross-overs last year for us and another troop in the area. One was done in November, one in January and one in late May just before school let out. About the only time there is ONE PLANNED event for all Cub Scouts, it's when we invite all the Web II boys to our winter cabin camping. As you can see what we do is NOT just for the individual Webelos Scouts. And as you can see the pack that did 3 cross-overs doesn't follow BSA recommendations either. I do have to admit that the May cross-over had the largest group of boys ready to make the move. Stosh

I had trouble when I was 13 with Morse Code, because of it, I actually did well at learning it. That Walking Scout still haunts me, though. Stosh

My WB ticked focused on the Web to Scout transition and I didn't stop after two years with it. While it is true there are many ways to do this transition it is obvious that not all work all that well. There are certain pitfalls that we often get stuck in and before we know it, a lot of potential scouts simply vanish. BSA might put out a ton of publications stating what is the best way to do it and yet the end results still have a ton of Cubs never making it to Scouting. My "Whatever it takes" attitude might sound arrogant to some, but what I do works, then it's quite blunt to chide the messenger. Look at the message. There is no standard out there, there's no magic bullet that can be used to solve all the different situations, every boys is different, every family situation is different, some boys are dealing with broken homes and financial short comings. So, then, give me the one-size-fits all formula pill that BSA prescribes that fixes all of that? Hmmm, Blue Gold AOL/Cross-over ceremony in February? I wish it was all that easy. Yep, you're right, my Whatever-it-takes approach has no documentation whatsoever. I guess I just don't believe that everything this important can be summed up with a simplistic approach. Somehow from the comments on the forum, I'm not the only one that doesn't follow the BSA prescribed directions from off the box to make things work in their units all the time either. But if someone out there has somehow found a wee bit of success on how to do it, I want to hear about it instead of the party line of: "Nope, this is the best and only way to do it." Stosh

Or, one can quit looking for the magic balance between adult-led and boy-led. There just isn't any that will work. It has not been determined how many patrols this troop has. Is SPL even necessary? If not, let the boy explore a number of different options to try out with the troop. If he is non-functional anyway, have fun with it and work on whatever he wants, it's a free-for-all situation he has been given. And this goes back to the fallacy of the current BSA policy of SPL selection. The troop is new so the adults haven't had a chance to make up a bunch of rules for the boys. So what happens, the SPL is the NSP's PL. Yeah, that's a good selection. Let's set the new guy up for failure! Obviously the troop thinks the SPL position is not really all that important or they wouldn't have made a joke out of it. Seriously? Do you really think the scout with less than a year's experience even knows what's going on, let alone lead it in any functional manner? I have only the PL's select the SPL if and when he is needed. I have never had a full-time SPL even when I was running a troop of 20+ boys. At summer camp last summer my SPL was the PL of the only patrol and we had formed only a couple of months before camp. So my SPL hadn't even gotten to the Scout rank. Well, he was just the PL so he went to the SPL meetings. Everything worked out just fine. Now he's the PL of the patrol again. No SPL needed. One always runs the risk of electing an SPL that is not experienced, very popular, and totally dysfunctional when it comes to running a basic PLC meeting. But hey, that's the chance you take and the hassle one has to put up with for the next 6 months. Good luck with that. It is unfortunate that this situation has been created in the troop because with the inexperience of the SPL, it only begs for the intervention of more adults to cover his shortcomings. It also sounds like the corps of adults is a little thin so that's going to be a problem for a while, too. 1) The first thing I would do is reassure the elected SPL that whatever he does is fine, but his first priority is getting his FC rank and enjoy scouting, The SPL stuff can wait out his term and nothing is going to fall apart in the meantime. He doesn't need the POR for advancement, so don't worry if it's not functional. Let the boys know how effective their election was and maybe next time they'll put a bit more thought into the process. 2) The second thing I would do is give the PL's the heads up that they are going to have to cover with the heavy lifting. They don't have a functional SPL they can fall back on because the one elected doesn't have the experience to do the job. That's the troop's choice so they had better make the adjustments, or better yet, decide amongst themselves who will be a functional "SPL" that will be able to help out as needed. 3) This whole thing is a blessing in disguise. Quit looking for the "balance" and let it fully tilt to boy-led. "Okay, Dr. Frankenstein, you created this monster, you deal with it." Let them figure it out, let them make the adjustments, let them solve the problem of an inexperienced SPL, let them do it all. Their struggles over the next 6 months is going to be the "leadership training" that isn't in any syllabus or defined by any curriculum. 4) Adult training at this point is: "Never converse with a scout unless the sentence ends with a question mark." Scout A, "The PLC isn't working at all!" SM, "So what are you going to do to fix it?" Scout B, "The SPL just won't, can't, refuses, to do his job!" SM, "So what are you doing to change that?" PL #1, "I don't have any support anymore when I have problems with my patrol." SM, "No adult is going to step in and bail you out, so what other options do you have?" etc. Lesson #1 for leadership - Basic Problem Solving 101. If the boys are going to lead, they had better get their heads in the game. Depending on how this situation is handled, one will not need to be making up any adult rules for the position of SPL. The boys will learn that this wasn't a really good idea and make the changes at their discretion, not some adult's. Had this been my boy, the first father question I would have asked is, "Do you know how to take care of your boys? If not, maybe it would be a good idea to resign as SPL until you can." Stosh

In spite of all the well-wishing self-esteem builders out there giving these kids a false sense of value, there still are activities out there that teach the boys what's really going on in the real world. This mom got it right! Either this little lad is going to grow up with a crushed ego just to spend years in therapy, or he's going to rise to the occasion and become a fantastic salesman. With a mom like the one he's got, I'm putting my money on the second option. Stosh

I wouldn't classify the statement as rude. Blunt, but not rude. I fully understood your comment that both the Blue Gold and cross-over need to be in February and my blunt answer is "Why????" Here one has the perfect example where the program is more important than the people it is supposed to be serving. What if one of the Webelos II boys is not yet old enough to get his AOL at the time of the B/G? My point? Does he have to wait a year? What about the Webelos II boys that want to get in on the Pinewood Derby one last time. Sorry, but you crossed over to Boy Scouts.... Maybe February is the birthday of scouting, but when it comes down to awards for the boys, it's THEIR birthday that is really more important. As far as boys tricklling in over the course of a couple of months? So what?! I know it's not neat and tidy for the adults to handle, but it is a good learning experience for the TG. Basic problem solving 101. I have boys trickling in all year long. They figure it out rather quickly. We don't rely on feeder packs, we go out and recruit year-around. I know it's difficult to do, but not impossible. If waiting in limbo for a couple of months, try waiting for months with boys in limbo waiting until we get our 5 boys to start a new troop. I do cross-over ceremonies from B/G time through the following because I have had boys stay with Webelos through the summer to get in on the Webelos summer program instead of the Boy Scout program because of maturity and age/birthday issues. They leave the grade in June, too late to get in on summer camp, but Webelos fun stuff is still available? Sure, go with the Webelos program. I have boys start trickling in in February and I have had some finally make the transition in August just before school starts. I know the BSA program is valuable for the character development of young boys. But I still think the boys themselves are more important than the program. Stosh

Don'tcha just love the phone's ability to fill in the blanks and totally screw it up so bad even you don't remember what you said? Stosh

I guess it all goes back to the idea that when all is said and done, the patches and pins are all going to go into a memory box that will sit in the back of the closet until one day he pulls it out and realizes that he has a pin and can't for the life of him remember what it was for. Kinda the same reason why mom's pin up crappy artwork on the refrigerator and dad has a dead animal den in the basement. These are all little bits and pieces of memories that tell us who we were and who we have become over the years. I have a large bin in the garage of all the patches and pins, neckers and slides, and memorabilia of just scouting stuff I've accumulated over the years. It means something to someone, me. It's kinda like what's the sense of having an Ordeal sash once you have a Brotherhood sash, or then again what's the purpose of either of them once one has a Vigil sash. What a waste of time and money...... maybe.... Take a few minutes and have a cup of coffee with someone who's house has burned to the ground. Everything that told them who they were and why they are important is gone. You'll understand when the Mrs. pulls an old pin out of your junk drawer and asks why you're saving this old pin thingy. You will take it from her and gently put it back in the drawer and say, "I got that back when I was a Cub Scout." You don't have to know why. That part isn't important. Stosh

While it was a few years back, we didn't go with an outfitter, but listened to an experienced guide on how to pack, took 2 troops one from WI, one from IL. 2 permits and the whole thing came to less than $150/boy. Hauled our own canoes, did our own food, etc. We figured it would be about 3 times as much going with an outfitter. Stosh

Welcome Carolinifornia! I have 5 personal DO's and use them all the time. I started with gloves and channel locks and well, I still use gloves and channel locks. You'll be quite satisfied with them. Stosh

I don't bring in my HB because I only got to 2nd Class. I had a really tough time with Morse Code. Stosh

One can always get a BWCA permit even after the lottery has taken all the good entry points. The "lottery" runs every winter for the following summer unless they have changed the rules in the past few years. It's been a while, but I think if one doesn't get their name in for the drawings, they might not get the permit they want, but that doesn't mean there aren't other permits going unclaimed. If I don't get my choices of entry points in the lottery, all I have to do is find an open entry point and take that one. I might not get one close to where I wanted to start, but once in, I can go anywhere I want. I always asked for an entry point that was at least 1 mile from the parking lot. Nobody really wants to start their trip out with a mile portage. But I always got my first choice permit, every year I asked. Once you have your permit, then you can design your trek route. What one must realize is that Northern Tier only gets a limited amount of BWCA permits and then re-lotteries those out to Troops. If one wants to really go to BWCA, get your own BWCA permit, your odds of getting in are much better. Then find a scouter who has had BWCA experience and invite him/her along to work as your interpreter. I know a ton of guys in my council that would take you up on that. Heck, with a freebie week in BWCA, I'd sign on as guide. Stosh

Well whoever made up your special stupid rules, they seem to be quite infective. I pity the Cub Scout who's birthday falls on March 2nd, and he has to wait 364 days to get his earned recognition. But I know how important the rules are... Just tell Johnny he'll have to wait. It would be interesting to see the BSA notice that says this has to be done if February when they recognize a boy's completion of Cubbing at the end of the school year in June. Or he can do like I did. When I was old enough, I just filled out the registration form and walked away from Cub Scouts. There are way too many people out there with control issues making up rules that do more harm than good. I guess I really don't have much time to deal with these people so I avoid them like the plague. I have also been known to make up my own rules... like the rule that says I don't have to follow stupid rules. Stosh

The SM told everyone to go out and buy the heavy leather hiking boots, get them wet and wear them to break them in. I went down to the sporting good store and looked at what all the clerks were wearing having to stand and walk around on a cement floor all day long. They were a more light weight shoe that was made of artificial fabrics and didn't need any "breaking in." The other boy that didn't get blisters followed my lead when he noticed I didn't have the heavy hikers. SM was upset because he "knew" those shoes wouldn't hold up. Then I bought a couple of pairs of expensive poly-propylene socks and heavy wool socks. The poly would have been too lightweight for the rigors of Philmont according to the SM And heavy wool socks? Way too hot for summer Philmont! Then on the day of hiking, I put a layer of duct tape on the ball of my feet and behind my heel. Before I went down any incline of any length, I would stop and retie my shoes after banging my heels to move my toes back to avoid blisters on the top of my toes. Washed the salt out of the socks every night and wore the dry pair the next day. Before crossing any creek, stopped, took off my shoes and socks, stuck the socks in my pocket, put the shoes back on. Waded through the water. Stopped, dried feet, put new duct tape on, put on socks and shoes, shaken out best as could be done, and was back on the trail. SM complained the whole time about how slow I was on the trail. He also complained about blisters all night long as everyone else commiserated about their bleeding blisters. I have flat feet (military 4-F) bad enough to keep me out of the Vietnam War in 1968, so you know they're bad. And yes, my feet hurt bad because I didn't have the proper arch and ankle support. But they rested up pretty well each night for the next day. 9 days of hiking, maybe I would have lasted but maybe one or two more days, but I did okay with the 9. There were a few other things the SM and I didn't see eye-to-eye on, but I did better than a lot of the other boys. When climbing up the back side of Baldy, I cheated. Instead of climbing on hands and knees straight up the slag pile like I was supposed to, I found a switchback trail and walked up instead. I was the first to reach the top of Baldy in my crew. I don't suffer slack-jawed fools well. Stosh

On my Philmont trek of 110 miles, there was one boy and myself that didn't get blisters. We didn't do what the SM told us to do. Everyone always has the ability to make choices as they see fit. I for one choose to not have blisters and choose not to be miserably cold on a winter outing. Your mileage may vary. "If you can't be a shining example, at least be a horrible warning!" Stosh

Sidney, I understand some parental need to have every boy be equals, but sometimes personal achievement needs to be recognized as such. First of all withholding advancement for the boys is just plain wrong. We do the instant gratification beads to placate them when they're young and then hold out the grand prize at the end. Just doesn't make any sense to me why the adults need to be playing their little power games like that. Then there's the cross-over bit. Seriously? Why are the Packs even involved in such an activity? I have seen Packs do the "Cross-over to Nowhere" routine and have a ceremony where no boys are going on to a Scout troop. I think they did a little torquing to come up with a cross-over to life kinda thingy. It didn't make much sense and was pretty much a self-esteem, let's have everyone feel great kind of going nowhere ceremony. It's almost as bad as the cross-over to troops where the boys cross-over and then go off and sit with their parents because they aren't going on to Scouts. After 40 years, it always surprises me the lengths some pack leaders go to to be dumb. My thoughts. A boy earns his AOL. He gets the patch at the next den meeting. Card waits until next Pack meeting, special recognition at the B/G banquet, and then let the Boy Scouts worry about the cross-over and welcome ceremonies. My council has a cross-over ceremony at Boy Scout spring camporee every year for the boys that didn't get one in their troops for some unknown reason. These Web II Blue Golds are too much of a graduation ceremony anyway and only emphasizes that something can be ending instead of a ceremony celebrating the next step in the Scouting journey. I took the Web I boys and they all earned their AOL before the end of their first year and wore their AOL patches for the Web II year. They left the den as they aged out and were welcomed into the Troop as individuals, not as a group of Cub Scouts. Stosh

Thus it should come as no surprise that I am fully aware of the restriction on unit leaders that's why I commented as such, it's an area I have no experience in because of the rule. It's been an unwritten rule in all my units that the SM/ASM's don't mess with Committee responsibilities and vice versa. Stosh

I wonder how many scouts out there got AOL and never had a chance to ever sew it on their Cub Scout uniform because of the way it was handled? Kinda like the death-bed Eagles who never wear their rank on their youth shirt. Stosh

After 25 years as either a SM or ASM, I've never sat in on a BOR. One would think that it might be possible to schedule them over the course of multiple weeks. By scheduling them out one might also be able to put together a third or fourth board to handle even more boys. It would also curtail the wait-until-the-last-minute kind of stuff most boys try and pull. Stosh