Stosh

I'm thinking this is why there is no ranking in Cub Scouts. One competes with oneself. The award is issued on personal accomplishment based on age appropriate successes. Rank and arrow points. Does that mean the boy with 5 arrow points is better than the boy with just the rank badge? Should we start a fire under the underachiever or hold back the overachiever? This is why the program is set up the way it is. It doesn't make any difference, come next year, the slate is wiped clean and everyone starts anew. In Boy Scouts one earns advancement. One can't go to some high adventures until they have reached a certain level of proficiency, i.e. First Class, etc. If one isn't interested in HA, then it's no big deal. If they do not aspire to be leaders, then getting beyond FC is going to be a challenge. It is not age based and there's no annual "start over" from scratch. One joining Boy Scouts at age 15 has to start out with the Scout badge then Tenderfoot just like an 11 year old. Whole different set of dynamics going on in the two different programs. Stosh

The suggestion would apply to either the UK or the US. Are the candidates being selected on their promises and charisma or their skills and accomplishments? We run into problems when we vote party-line, buy into some promises rhetoric and never look at the person, their voting record, their tendencies to act in certain ways, etc. I think one of the problems with our system at least, is that the people who vote tend to never really research in order to make an educated decision at the ballots. If the boys want the prestige and not the work, they would in fact make a great politician, but not a good leader for the troop. I never vote for what a candidate says, but I do look carefully at what they have done as an indicator of what the future holds. I'm thinking that if more people were to do this, the quality of the candidates will need to improve to be considered. If one were to hold elections and no one stepped forward because they were going to be held accountable to doing something rather than just wear a patch for advancement, I'm thinking that anyone could be elected and accomplish nothing just as well as the next guy. Stosh

KenDavis500's #7 could be a rogaine event. Stosh

So where does one draw the line? Drugs? Weed? Booze? Cigarettes? e-Cigarettes? Lying? Stealing? Battery? Bullying? Conceal Carry? and when all is said and done, who makes the final decision? National BSA didn't put SM's in that position to keep boys from Eagle by making zero-tolerance policies. Where did this boy go wrong? Or is it, where did the SM go wrong? There's always two sides to every issue. In all the years of working with youth, I have never had a drug, alcohol or tobacco problem to deal with, so I have no experience in dealing with this stuff after the fact. Just never let it get to the after-the-fact level. Stosh

Or.... reverse the process. Everyone writes down the qualities they think would go into making a good PL, SPL, etc. and then see if anyone in the troop meets any of those expectations. Those lists could be posted as kind of job descriptions. Then boys who think they have skills to meet those expectations are encouraged to run for those positions knowing the boys will hold them accountable to them. Once the troop has NO LEADERS stepping forward, it would be a good time to start teaching/learning what it takes to be a leader. This process is a good way to cut out the political promising and define realistic expectations of real leadership. Stosh

Good luck with this. I was well into college before I could honestly answer any of these kinds of questions. I wanted to be a minister when I was in high school, went to college and took classes to be a music teacher, then switched to business, then graduated and went into seminary. I haven't worked as a minister for 25 years. I think at my age when I retire in a year or two I'm going to become a greeter at Walmart. Stosh

Primitive camping... No facilities, no campsites, no resources, just a place to camp. Dig latrines, find and process water, cook using resources available, shelters from what is brought. It doesn't need to be a wilderness survival issue, just camping as pure camping and not dragging everything from home. Maybe limit it to what can be carried in backpacks, canoes, bikes, or best yet, kayaks. Maybe a 9 day trip down a river, 9 day trek on a trail, etc. Stosh

Some scout aspire to achieve. Others are along just for the ride. How beneficial is it then to treat them as equals? This is where we come up with the Eagle and out attitude. Once one has gotten to the top of the heap, game's over. Sorry, when a soldier reaches the rank of general, it's not over, it's just starting. There's no such thing as one-size-fits-all in Scouting. Trying to make it so is like hammering in screws. It works, but it's not what was intended. I was in Cub Scouts for 4 years and never received Lion or Webelos awards, but I had fun with my friends. I was in Boy Scouts for 4 years and never made it to FC, but I had fun with my friends. When the SM started hassling us about advancement, my friends and I all went into a different youth program, fun was over, time to move on. Stosh

Just ranting..... Stosh

What people did beyond the original Constitutional document is in self revisionism. So I guess it's the pot calling the kettle black. Stosh

Welcome to the forum. Take a deep breath and relax. First of all no one said any of this is going to be easy. Everyone has pie-in-the-sky attitudes and think they can just waltz in an plop down a unit already set to go. Piece of cake. I have been part of initiating well over 40 units in my lifetime. Most of them fail within a few years because of the amount of work needed to get them up and going. Look at it as at least a 3-5 year process to get going. My last two units are a venturing crew and a Boy Scout troop. The Crew took about 3 years to get going and I have been working for over 2 years on the Boy Scout troop at this point. I have a full contingent of adults and 5 boys, hopefully a new cross over from Webelos will be joining us in the next month. Was I hoping a dozen or two boys would come in and plop down their application forms with money in hand? Sure. But that's now how it works. Council personnel and UC's are as rare as hen's teeth, too. It sounds as if you have multiple adults, 3/4th's of which should focus on the boys and the other quarter focuses just on getting the unit established. Do not blend the two groups. Once the unit is established, the details worked out, the leaders are all trained, and boys are having fun, then and only then can that organization group step out of their organizational roles and into working with the pack leaders. When one focuses in too many areas at the same time, there's a strong chance that one will get discouraged. They will see things that need to be done and no time to do it. Let the organizers take that on. You will notice that the derby track doesn't exist. Let the organizers worry about that. They want us to do popcorn sales and you have just enough time to make sure your boys are progressing in their awards. That money would be great for the BlueGold, but the DL's don't have time to organize that. You won't have time to do it all, share the load with like-minded people. The CM is ready to throw in the towel!??? Of course, get more adults on-board and focus on small project rather than trying to do everything all at the same time. Stosh

Our local YMCA and schools are now doing more and more out-doors programing that is the rave of our local newspaper. The kids think this is good stuff. Of course they don't need to wear a dorky uniform to do so and they don't have to actually touch the bugs they find. Of course if any of the kids get separated from the group, the county search and rescue team is always available. Stosh

I agree with pchadbo, an attendance ribbon is not the same as a trophy for winning. The patches I wear on my right pocket are not the same as the patches I have above my left pocket. Stosh

Well, the Bill of Rights only deals with the US government not establishing a national religion through an enactment by Congress. It doesn't say anything more than that. Everything else is added and piled on to further complicate the simple. And yet the US government can be as intolerant as the next group even though there is the lip-service of the "Bill of Rights". Utah couldn't become a state in the union unless it gave up polygamy. Flat out abuse of power. US government dictating what a religion can or cannot do. We all know that "All men are created equal." unless you're black and a slave, then you're just property. Historically the Constitution has been abused since before the ink dried and to try and figure out what's what today, all we are doing is stirring the pot and pretty much negating anything and everything it once stood for. So why is it that people can't wrap their minds around the fact that the US Government's efforts surround themselves around atheism and the fact that in order to adhere to the Constitution as it is now defined, the US is a god-less nation. One nation under God, and in God we trust are now meaningless. It was a grand experiment our Founding Fathers put forth, and they knew it and said just that. It was tested through the American Civil War as Abe Lincoln points out. But it didn't work. Live with it. Stosh Oh, by the way, "separation of church and state" is not in the Constitution, it was "inferred" later on along with thousands of other inferences that are part of that piling on to negate the original document. All these inferences were never signed into law by the signers of the US Constitution.

Welcome, I'm at a loss for words....... Stosh

What's the sense of winning if it's really not? My car never won a heat, but I got a participation trophy. My buddy's car won every heat and all he got was a participation trophy. So what's the purpose of a racing derby anyway? Everyone should be equal. Well, last time I checked people are like snowflakes, no two are the same, not even identical twins. Lessons to the Losers: there's always tomorrow and if one works at it you got a chance to change. Keep yourself hungry for the win. Lessons to the Winners: don't sit back and think you're the best because there's always someone out there hungry for the win. It's kinda how life works. Didn't get your promotion? Either cry in your soup or roll up your sleeves. Choice is yours. Stosh

What is strange is that this thread on The Patrol Method is discussing an article in the Scouting magazine that promotes The Troop Method. If this is a lesson on Boy-Led, well then, the solution is simple. A boy will be far more successful leading in a Patrol Method unit than he will be trying to lead in a Troop Method unit. Stosh

I didn't say intolerance was restricted to any one group. It permeates all religious/non-religious groups. It's just that some groups are better than others at it and even when they promote tolerance, it doesn't mean anything when it comes to putting it into practice. The Golden Rule doesn't apply in today's society except for maybe a very small minority. Our society is definitely on a downward spiral in this area and I don't see it hitting the bottom anytime soon. In Southern California if one were to make eye-contact with strangers, there was a sense of suspicion that accompanied it. If one did not steering-wheel wave to every other vehicle on the road in North Dakota, there was a sense of suspicion that accompanied it. While winters in ND really suck, I preferred the strangers there than those in Southern CA. Oh, by the way, that observation was made by me 40 years ago. Things have probably changed since then. Having lived in my current urban house/neighborhood for 20 years, I know everyone within a quarter mile. Now that I live in the country for the past month, I only know everyone within a quarter mile. I can definitely say that as a practicing tolerant person, I'm not tolerated by others quite a bit of the time. We make easy targets for them to express their anger and hatred. I have learned that intolerant people are not my problem, they are a problem only to themselves. I have often said, I can always get along with most people, but I just can't stand intolerant people. Stosh Oh, by the way when in college my 4 dorm room mates: 1) Chinese 2) Negro 3) Homosexual 4) Caucasian The one I had the most hassles with was #4

A 50-something guy with 3-4 weeks vacation does not fill out the needed 4-6 weeks of summer camp MB offerings. Okay, then find two 50-something guys and coordinate their schedules. Okay, that's one MB, how many are offered? 35? Okay 70 more guys and a lot of headache later. In order to safely offer a MB for the whole summer, the camp has to have a counselor on-hand for every week. With that being said, it would be nice to have an older MB counselor, but for all practical purposes, just hiring a college student is a lot less hassle and they're going to be there very week. Stosh

As a Constitutionalist, display of the 10 Commandments, or any other religious quotation does not make a law to establish it as anything other than citizens expressing the free exercise of their religion. Of course through further misinterpretation the word Congress has been replaced by any governmental entity shall not just refrain from making laws, but also prohibit the free exercise thereof of the citizens. This is how teachers are justified in taking Bibles away from grade school children who bring them to school to read. The Constitution has been misquoted, misinterpreted, and stretch so far in all directions, it's pretty much null and void. And even that which remains the executive branch refuses to enforce anyway. What used to be a legal document has now become a living document which simply means it can be interpreted any way anyone wishes to do so. This is how schools get away with free speech zones. It used to be all of America was a free speech zone, now it's no longer the case. Tolerance is no longer an American virtue. We even have our schools teaching our youngest children the benefits of zero-tolerance in our society. Offended people generally are a small but growing minority. We are no longer ruled by laws created by the majority, we are a nation ruled by the offended minority which is now just about everyone. It kinda reminds me of the adult version of "The Lord of the Flies". Stosh

And what would be the incentive for me to drag all my MB equipment halfway across the state to get to the council camp for a MB that I can do at home? Unless you are an old foggy at 65+ one probably has to take off from work to be there the full week as well. I don't see enough incentive to make it happen effectively. Sure there will be one or two out there that would cover a MB for one week here and there, but when one has to line up MB counselors for a 6-7 week program, I don't think the headache is worth it. For me, I preferred teaching TF-FC skills over being a MB counselor. All the stuff was already there, I was an ASM and so I could get away from the troop for the teaching sessions anyway. Worked nicely. Didn't need to be registered and didn't need any extra training. It was fun for both the boys and me. Also, I don't think MB's need to be the main focus of summer camp anyway. I would rather have the time spent in open swim/waterfront, open gun/archery range and camp-wide games. If a boy wants to go and sit under a tree and whittle all day long, this is the time and place for it. Been there, done that, it was a good day. With all the scheduling outlined by camp, just when does the boy have time to make his camp gadget? Stosh

When I was a WDL, we met weekly plus the monthly pack meeting. We also did 1 outing away from the meeting each month. This is pretty much what the troops do and it was a good pattern to get the boy accustomed to Boy Scouts. Stosh

I'm confused. Are you saying he dynamics should be from the bottom up or the top down? Top down is a management style where as bottom up is a leadership style. The people at the bottom (patrol members) are not going to follow managers, they follow leaders. (#1 reason troops have discipline problems in their troops) Until people get this worked out in their heads they will always fall prey to adult-led, adult-managed troops with no patrol autonomy or Patrol Method. The patrols dictate what the troop does because that has been established by the boys through the Patrol Method. SPL: Eagle patrol is in charge of the flag ceremony at the upcoming Camporee. Eagle PL: Sorry, we won't be there, the boys will be doing a 10-mile hike that weekend. They're working on their Hiking MB. SPL: Sorry, SM Jones said all patrols have to attend the Camporee. I'm just passing along what he told me. Eagle PL: Not a problem. Mark us down as no one is attending from the Eagle patrol, they are all busy with something else that weekend. People tend to follow leaders who are perceived as taking their best interests into consideration when making decisions. The Eagle patrol is working on a hiking MB. Their PL is doing whatever it takes to make that happen for them. That's leadership and they will all follow him without discussion. Tell them that the word has come down from on high that they have to attend the Camporee and attendance will fall off accordingly. In order to maintain management of the situation, discipline from the SPL will need to be enforced to attempt to maintain attendance. If the boys do not attend, the next SMC will center the discussion around insubordination and what's best for the troop! The Patrol Method is on paper only in a troop managed program even if it's "boy-led" in name only. I do not teach managers, I create leaders. Those are two different and often conflicting issues. Managers attend to tasks, Leaders attend to people. A group of people lead well will accomplish tasks far better than a good manager dictating his singular plan any day. Stosh

And here is the rub! Why troop method, boy led? Why is it always all or nothing? Why not let the older boys be boy-led, patrol-method and see where it goes? Everyone is in such a hurry to get the PLC/SPL model going when in most troops that process isn't even required or even needed. I would rather have 1 boy-led patrol, then 2, then 3, then 4, then 5 then 6, then when those patrols are all running just fine as boy-led, introduce the PLC concept. Hey, no big deal, they probably have already been doing a lot of it behind the scenes anyway. The article in Scouting Magazine is nothing more than another attempt to instill in top-down management into the troops rather than the servant leadership needed for the patrol method. Sorry, half-full/half-empty glass is irrelevant, what we have here is a half-hearted attempt to promote management at the expense of leadership. I don't buy it and I would think that any troops that attempt it are destined for a lot of hassles that will quickly build to the point where adult-led will need to be brought back to save the troop. The troops need leadership skills, not management skills. My highest ranking scout has not gotten his TF badge yet, but he still arrives with an agenda, game, flag ceremony, and training options for advancement every week. Why? If you ask him, he'll say it's what's necessary to take care of the patrol members. He's a terrible manager, but his leadership skills make up for it in spades. Stosh

One can train a boy to be responsible just as easily as being irresponsible. One's situation does not dictate one's goals achievements. Stosh