Stosh

The terrorists have won. Americans are now paranoid and terrified of anything and everything. And the really sad thing about it this terror is being taught by the parents to the children by the way they are treated. Second generation paranoids on the way. Stosh

Nope, I did not find the best person to do the job, I found the ONLY person to do the job. Had she said no, there would have been no 2nd grade Sunday School that year and the two boys would have been merged into either a grade up or grade down. Kinda like combining the Wolves and Bears because a DL couldn't be found. It happens regardless of what "program" one is using to recruit leaders. That is idealism, pie-in-the-sky. What happens when the best person is identified and all the begging, pleading, whining, cajoling, threatening, and doing all kinds of other things to embarrass oneself and they still say, "No, not interested!" How does that fit into the best guarantee of success scenario? Yep, you are still relying on everyone saying yes to the requests for help. The reason the thread is on this forum is because there are large numbers of very well qualified, exceptional leaders that simply say NO and that's the end of it. Now you settle for second best? and they say NO. Now you'll take anyone that's breathing and has a pulse? You've run out of possibilities and now you need to admit out of a total sense of frustration that the event is cancelled and you've failed. Or, you can just ask up front and if anyone is interested in helping and if everyone says no, then cancel right away. Cutting to the chase really keeps the frustration level down and one doesn't have to go around annoying everyone in the process. Stosh

And this is why I believe the process is backwards... Unit leaders reviewing what THEY think other people can do for their program?? But this does not take into consideration what the other people WANT to do if anything for the program. Then they frustrate themselves to no end by "recruiting" them through persuasion, coercion, guilt, railroading, badgering, nagging and threats. Sounds like a win-win for everyone. Eventually they get on the scouter forum and complain about the parents not being interested/supportive. Well I've dealt with people who do this process for many years and suggest they let the people decide for themselves if they want to help or not. If enough people don't come forward, either the existing leadership is going to need to step up their game or they need to cut back on the program. Please explain to me any other possibilities. Then when the others do sign up, yes they may not be the best person for the job, but anyone is better than no one. If no one thinks a certain program is important by signing up, then why are they doing it? Oh, Gee! No one signed up to help with the Blue/Gold! That means one of two things need to be done. All the existing leaders need to pick up the pace and do even more, increasing their chances to burn out, or two we don't have a Blue/Gold this year. Maybe if the boys did well on their popcorn sales they can afford a party consultant to come in and put one on for the pack. Threads like these always pop up under different themes but they all are basically the same problem. Year ago when I was pastor in my first parish, the education committee came to me and said they had no one to teach the second grade class. They told me they had contacted everyone and no one would do it. It's really not a good thing to lie to one's pastor. But this is the process that Seattle has suggested. What they wanted me to do was put the screws to their candidates. Well, instead, I made one phone call to an 85 year old lady who was at church every Sunday and asked her if she would be the second grade teacher. She asked, how many kids, and I told her two. She said great, one for each knee. End of discussion. By the way, the two kids had a great year. You can blow me off all you want, but people who have tried this very seldom go back to the old ways. Some have, but only after I was no longer with their program so I don't know why. Stosh

One must also consider the dynamics of the PLC as the fulcrum. If the SPL is dictating to the patrols through the PLC, it is a troop run program, the patrols have little or no say in the program. But if the patrols are directing the direction of the troop through the PLC, then it is a patrol run unit. This is the rub. A SM tells the SPL what to do, the SPL tells the PLC what to do, the PL tells the members what's going on. This is an adult-led, but patrol-method troop. Some SM's cut to the chase in an effort to be expedient and tell the PL's what to do if there even is a PL. This is an adult-led, troop-method troop. One can also have a boy-led, troop-method program where everything the troop does is voted on by all the members. The SPL asks, "Anyone want to go to Philmont next summer?" and then counts the number of hands that go up regardless of any patrol dynamics. On the other hand a boy-led, patrol-method program will take it's goals from the interests of each patrol. PLC meeting, Patrol #1 is going to Philmont next summer, Patrol #2 is going to summer camp. The SPL now gathers resources to make it work for both patrols. The program of the SM, SPL and PLC is to insure what the patrols want and need for a program. After all it is the patrol members that are the "paying customer" in the process. If they don't get what they want and need they will go elsewhere. It's not marketing, it's human nature. Stosh

Canoe the Yukon.... Stosh

I lived in one district of our council, was CA in a venturing crew in another and SM in a troop in the third. I used to drive 50 miles round trip for Venturing meetings and 40 miles round trip for weekly troop meetings. 90 miles round trip for Roundtable. Out of Venturing, different troop, home district, Roundtable is 20 miles round trip. Troop meeting is 35 miles round trip. Stosh

The system I spoke of is not intended to cause it to fold, but for everyone to have the opportunity to become aware of all the work necessary to run a successful program and it isn't going to happen if insufficient numbers of people don't step up to the plate. Kind of a reality check for the group. Instead of, "We need someone to volunteer for something they know nothing about." It's, "Here's some of the things we think the boys would like to have in the program, is there something here you can help with?" If there isn't enough hands and help to go around, why is someone getting upset with it? It's just the reality of the situation. Any business that doesn't have enough customers to make a go of it, is going to close their doors. I have seen this system work VERY well in a variety of different settings. I had one banquet activity planned for an organization. Program chair had a program lined up. Cooks were all there ready to go, everything was all set to go and then someone said, "There are no table decorations!" Panic ensued. At 15 minutes before the start a car drove up, an army of adults/teens/kids descended on the tables and 5 minutes later of finely choreographed activity, everything looked great! That was the only activity that person did all year long and they didn't have to listen to constant begging for help for every other project/activity the group planned. She had her one thing she volunteered for, knew how much money she had to spend, and who the people where that were going to help her long before the activity was to be held....and when the time came she did it very well. Stosh

If I get that message I do NOT lose the message, it comes back and asks me the next time I come into the thread if I was to restore or discard it. I just restore it and hit send. Always goes through. As a matter of fact, it just happened to the posting I made just prior to this one on this thread. Stosh

Yep, been going on for many months now. Ignore it and the next time you come into the thread you have to pull the message back into the typing area and discard in order to get rid of it even if you have already posted it. Stosh

And the alternative is to keep dragging the dead horse along thinking that someday once it's had a chance it'll somehow get back up and you can ride again. If people want to keep a program by the skin of their teeth, then do so and quit complaining about nobody else helping. It might be important to you and your boy, but it's not important enough for the parents of the other boys to get involved. That leave that person doing it all themselves or closing up shop. Yes we would all like to leave a legacy of our tenure in a scout unit, but seriously, if it's going down hill and no one really cares, then either decide to do the heavy lifting yourself or walk away. And the conclusion that it would end up a program for the upper income, upper education level elite doesn't resonate. One can't buy the program, they have to do the program. It's like even if you have all the money in the world, if there's no food, you're going to starve to death along with everyone else, you can't eat money. Stosh

I have described a process to guarantee a program for a year using volunteers. It works and it works well. If sign-up sheets for every activity planned are not filled up with volunteers, one will know right from the git-go, whether or not an activity is even needed. If no one signs up for anything, then it's time to shut the unit down, there's not going to be enough help through the year to make it successful. Better to know that up front than struggle throughout the year thinking some kind of miracle is going to happen and then being disappointed when it doesn't. Stosh

I don't know what the effects are for other religions, but the more Christians have been persecuted, the stronger they become. Well, at least for the past 2000 years, that 's been the case. The true religions of the world will eventually tire of this and step up and deal with it. Until they become convinced it will continue. As long as Satan thinks he can get away with it, it will continue. ("One Tin Soldier") This is nothing new. Stosh

It's kinda too bad that these people have a god that needs them to murder for him. I'm thinking the real God of Islam can take care of himself. This is the problem of any radical religion, these people think themselves as self-appointed protectorates of a God that doesn't need protecting, but it's a good excuse to produce the destruction of what their God abhors. This is why they always wear a veil of shame when they act. True champions of any religion do not hide their faces. The words, actions, and beliefs of humanity has no affect on God, but they will all be judged accordingly. Stosh

Welcome! Stosh

Don't take this in a negative light, but anytime 1 adult tries to do the work of 20+ boys, he/she will burn out! How much responsibility should have been turned over to the boys to carry their fair share of the 1K pounds? Well, now they're going to find out. A gradual transition over the past year might have been easier, but the all or nothing approach of doing it all at one is going to be difficult but not impossible for the boys. Stosh

If one were to read the First Amendment very carefully and read just what's there, it's kinda revealing: "The First Amendment (Amendment I) to the United States Constitution prohibits the making of any law .... abridging the freedom of speech ...." Okay, the government can't make laws abridging the freedom of speech, but the constitution doesn't protect the individual from getting their teeth knocked out by someone who took offense at what was said. The First Amendment is directed towards what the federal government can't do, NOT THE INDIVIDUAL. You're on your own, and you take your chances. It's not covered by the Constitution. Yes, the federal government in all three branches have corrupted the intent expressed in the Amendment and what the government hasn't gotten to, individuals also corrupt it further through traditional practices that have no basis in the Constitution. Stosh

Ran across this quote many years ago, and it applies quite nicely: "It is better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt." Stosh

What we say is not a reflection on what we believe, it is a reflection of who we are. Are we tolerant? Are we courteous? Are we kind? I can either impose my free speech on others, or I can be patient and wait for those who are interested to ask. Stosh

I have found that until the older boys get to know the younger ones, the NSP keeps the boys going and oriented to how the troop does things. The PL of the older patrol does know that when he takes on a newbie, he is responsible for that boy's advancement and it probably doesn't coincide with what the current patrol boys are doing. The PL has the final say so as to whether or not he wants that responsibility. NSP seems to work well under those circumstances and they focus mainly on advancement in that patrol. Our boys can switch around among patrols anytime they want. If they are having a problem with one patrol, they don't have to wait to get a different situation. The only rule is patrols are to be 6-8 boys. As far as PL's are concerned. Any patrol can elect any other scout regardless of what patrol they are in to be their PL. The NSP can do that as well. They generally don't do that especially when there are 8 boys in the patrol and one would need to leave or be assigned a troop leadership position to make the numbers work. If the NSP does not decide who their PL is outside of their patrol, they do get to decide who their TG is going to be. Generally by electing an experienced scout to be their PL, the NSP doesn't then need a TG. The boys seem to figure this stuff out rather quickly and it doesn't seem to be a hassle. I had one boy needing a POR and said he wanted to be a PL. No patrol wanted him so he went out on a "recruiting" venture and basically tried to "steal" members from other patrols and bring in outside the troop. Needless to say he couldn't come up with but one boy to be is APL. It ended in a disaster and he got no POR credit. But at least he tried! Stosh

Does it really matter what the BSA literature says if the boys are picking their friends to be in a patrol with? Suppose you have a group of 16 year olds that want to hang out together and the NSP are wandering around getting oriented. The third patrol has 11-15 year olds that want to be together. Is this a mixed aged patrol troop or same age patrol troop? I for one am not going to tell the boys they have to do relatively same aged patrols or mixed aged patrol because that's what BSA literature says. Instead I'm going to listen to my boys more often than the "ideal" of the BSA. I find that there's a lot less hassle that way and the disciple necessary to deal with the hassles is non-existent. If patrol-method works for the boys and troop-method works for the adults, then one must ask, whose the program for? And yes there are those out there that will say, in our troop with the boys we have and the adults we have, the troop-method works the best for all...(says the adults). Stosh

Eagle94-A1 I don't know if I would use the word flexible in as much as I would use the word adaptable. I don't think that the concept of BSA program is a one-size-fits-all is correct. Surely the dynamics and needs of a 1 patrol troop is not the same as a 6 patrol troop, nor is a brand new troop the same as one that has flourished for 99 years. This also needs to be tempered with the skills and abilities of the adult and youth leadership at hand and this can change as often as once or twice a year. To think everyone is going to adhere to BSA publications like they are holy scriptures is kind of foolish. Whatever it takes to make it work for the boys! Stosh

"Venturing" as we know it today has been around co-ed since the early 1970's. It was under the Exploring program and there were many General Interest posts all over the place. In the last 1990's, they repackaged the program into Venturing. The career posts went one direction (Learning for Life, I believe) and the hobby, general interest posts became Venturing. Welcome Stosh

What one often forgets is the nature of the beast. BSA is a non-profit business that sells a program, like the YMCA, churches, and other similar programs. Instead of being focused within a business facility like most, the BSA entities are scattered out into the neighborhoods through charter contracts with various other institutions. But it's employee base is volunteers rather than paid individuals. YMCA runs a clinic they pay the instructors, BSA runs units by they don't pay anyone. BSA seems to run more like a religious organization in its structure than a business like YMCA today (which in fact was originally a religious organization). While all these entities are basically the same, expectations vary considerably. One would not think twice about paying for a Yoga class at the YMCA at whatever price they set, but instantly balk when the BSA district puts a price tag on the Camporee. The only difference is in the minds of the people. I don't think that the councils are making it hard on anyone, they are, just like any other business, trying to survive. If not, the BSA simply closes the council and the volunteers can then travel that much further to get services. Kinda like when the little church down the street closed its doors, everyone just went somewhere else to church. Happens all the time. No one makes much of a fuss about it, but if it has anything to do with BSA the volunteers seem to react to the level of someone abusing puppies. Is there politics and drama in BSA? Sure, but as we all are fully aware, no one fights dirtier than churches. Every business has it's politics and drama. Why would BSA be exempt? In a Disney/Pollyanna world, maybe that could happen, but I don't think it's going to happen any time soon. Stosh

Wouldn't it be easier just to say no? Stosh

An adult can run a youth program far better and efficiently than a youth can. Thus if BSA is looking to preserve it's program, why would they not tolerate if not outright support the adult led program? It's kinda like the schools do what it takes to preserve the integrity of the school. If kids happen to learn something along the way, that's just a side benefit. Stosh