Stosh

Welcome to the forum, it's good to get non-scouters that are interested in knowing more about the program. With that being said, it is my opinion that scouting is NOT the problem. It would appear that scouting is the one thing he really enjoys and I see that being recognized as leverage to improve his scholarship. It isn't going to work. I was in scouts as a boy. I was also a Class-A underachiever. My guidance counselor told me I wasn't college material. My adviser advised against taking college prep courses. I graduated in the lower half of my graduating class. Since graduation I have now 3 degrees, one of which I earned a 3.27 GPA and the other two are 4.0 GPA. The highest degree I hold is a professional masters degree. In high school I was in band, sports, clubs, etc along with scouting. I was too busy trying to survive high school which was by far the low point in my life. Because this I have spent 40+ years working with youth, 30+ of them in Scouting as an adult leader. Why? Because I understand the hassles that some of these kids go through because of their parents, teachers and others who try harder than the student to achieve scholastic excellence. Were some of my teachers jerks? Yep, extra homework because I didn't do it right in the first place. Daily badgering to remind me I was an under-achiever. Yep, that too. Parents that cajoled and bribed me to get better grades. Was I compared to older siblings who did better in school? Oh, of course! My advise on how to approach this issue? Be his advocate, work with him and help him with his struggles as he moves through this difficult time of his life. You need to be talking with him, not judging him with some sort of analysis standard you have come up with to talk with his parents, teachers, and everyone else about. If you are able to gain his confidence, he will begin to come around to certain extent. He has no one out there to champion him as a person. And it would seem that you as his tutor are focused more on his scholastic achievement and getting into college than you are as him as a person. I suppose as an academic tutor it's bad for business if the kid isn't improving under your tutelage. Just remember he harbors disdain for other teachers, you have the opportunity to either join them, or strike out on a different course than they are taking. Start with a heart-to-heart with the boy and go from there. By heart-to-heart, I mean let him talk and then you listen for a change. Working with a trusted ally is always far more effective than working for teachers and tutors. Stosh

And I also think that this process has been viewed by many as a lot more than a project that shows the boys leadership ability. Nothing more, nothing less, or one is doing what I said in the first place, adding to the requirement. Feel free to quote the part where the requirement says anything pertaining to preparation for professional and/or academic life. A professional lawyer does not need leadership skills, nor does it take leadership to get a PHD. I also stated earlier that if one wanted to have someone look it over for proofing, the boy's English teacher would be the most qualified. I have seen this process abused by adults so often it is pathetic. I would think that if the scout wanted to do a professional job of the project, he can simply do a R. I. E. using the 9-block basic problem solving A-3. Stosh

I didn't say the boy was not to follow the rules and guidelines if he is able. If not something else will have to substitute. A blind scout should be able to write his project in braille. Not everyone can type on a keyboard. So, what's more important: the quality of his project or the quality of his proposal? I have seen projects were there are no pictures or diagrams. One puts them in only if needed. If the scout can't articulate his project in an understandable way, that means someone else is going to have to do it for him or it doesn't get done. This is how adults end up doing the project from proposal through completion. What does any of this have to do with a project that shows leadership? I'm thinking that the adults are making a big deal out of something that just isn't. If the boy can get the idea of his project clear enough to have someone think it's good enough to qualify as an Eagle project, that should suffice. Yes, as a scout leader I have received phone calls from the council committee asking ME if it would be sufficient as an Eagle Project. Why are they asking ME???? Stosh

How's about reveling in the ability to not be pigeon-holded. I might be a boomer, but I'm not much like any of my counterparts. I have always been amazed how I got through the drugs of the 60's without ever taking any. Missed Woodstock too. Stosh

I'm with DuctTape on this one. Too much "fixing" by adults is quite disruptive to the Patrol Method. I'm thinking that BSA and it's members is over-thinking this process and making wild and incorrect assumptions as to what is really going on. Let's say, it's Saturday and the Little League team is going to have a big game, just like it does every Saturday and maybe a few other days during the week as well. You're on the A-team. Gonna miss? Nope. Or Let's say all the buddies decide to take in a matinee this coming Saturday. Gonna miss? Nope. Or Let's say the gang down the street has been dissed by another gang from across town. There's been a rumble called. Gonna Miss? Nope. Or let's say there's a camporee planned for this weekend. You've been in scouting for 5 years now and this is going to be camporee #11. It'll be just like any other campout and the patrol members have all been bummed out about not being able to do what they want to do and going to camporee isn't even on the list. Gonna miss? Yep. If it's important to them, they'll be there. If they're not there, then real answers need to be dug out and dealt with, not the excuses, the real answers. Excuses are nothing more than smoke screens for not wanting to discuss it any further. Find out what your boys want and then put your servant leadership hat on and help them get there. If one is not out in the front leading the boys, then there's a strong possibility that they're following someone else. Stosh

If the Eagle Boards want everything perfect, why do they expect a bunch of kids to write it. There should be an Eagle Review Board in every unit that the boy goes to, give them the general idea of what his project is all about and they write it. Oh, that's already being done in a lot of troops? Never mind. Stosh

My boys know pretty much what's going on. I pass along all information from RT handouts to forwarded emails. The boys can pick and choose what they want. I also have contacts with other districts and pass along that information as well. And the boys are free to look at other council activities and are currently connected to two other nearby councils for information. Isn't that supposed to be the job of the servant leader SM? Provide the support of the boys? How can they make educated decisions when the SM keeps them in the dark? The reason why a lot of units react with "That's the way we've always done it." is because in many cases they don't know any other alternatives. Stosh

Since the 60's Me Generation, this has been traditionally passed down to each subsequent generation. One does not help out with a program that they are paying for. One can drop them off at the doors of the YMCA and not worry about them until suppertime. One goes into the outdoors only so far. The campground needs a game room, pool, showers, flush toilets, small grocery store and have entertainment within a 10-15 minute drive. With the motorhomes and 5th wheelers out there, no bugs, no dirt, no inconvenience to go camping. For the past 50 years we have improved our ability to get away from nature and it's ill effects. Hunters, fishermen, campers? Well they are not the norm, they are the rugged left overs from days gone by. YMCA, karate, youth sports, are now the norm. Ice hockey is now played indoors so the parents don't get cold watching. The world has changed and BSA now caters to only the few hard-core outdoors people. My daughter and son-in-law made the conscious choice to have mom stay at home, raise the kids, home school, live on a subsistence farm and dad will run the farm after being trained in welding, carpentry, electrical, plumbing skills. Most of their "friends" think they're nuts. My daughter's coming over tomorrow morning to go through seed catalogs with me so we can plan out next summer's gardens. My son-in-law came over last night to finalize plans for a canoe/kayak trailer he's building for me as a project for this welding class. Have I got it made or what?! Stosh

How much leadership is supposed to be demonstrated in the Eagle paperwork? I'm thinking if it takes multiple times to make a proposal then there are expectations beyond the requirements going on. If a boy is totally capable to leading a major project, but has been denied because of the paperwork, it's not the boy's fault. We had a boy in the council who had difficulty with reading and writing, so he made his proposal via video. SM asked him the questions on the form and he answered them verbally. The committee turned him down. Needless to say the backlash straightened things out rather quickly and the boy went on to do a good job on his project. One must be careful that one does not add to the requirements. After all this is not governmental grant writing here, it's a young man doing his best to get an opportunity to show his leadership abilities. Last time I checked the ability to read and write was not necessary on the resume of a true leader. Stosh

Popsicle sticks and beads the diameter of the width of the Popsicle sticks. Using the awl on their jack-knives, make a hole 1/4 " from one end on all their sticks and a second one at the 1/2 way point of the stick. Lace all the sticks together through the hole at the end with elastic cording. Then thread alternating between stick and beads through the holes at the midway point with same elastic cordage. Once you have enough, tie off. Should look like a circle trivet for mom to use in the kitchen. It also folds up a bit for storage. By the way, my mom used hers on a regular basis until she passed at the age of 74. It's back in my drawer now. Just moved to a new home so I can't locate it right off to let you know how many sticks and beads one needs for each trivet. One may have to make one to get the count. No power-tools needed and a toothpick may be needed to push the elastic cordage through depending on how well the boys do on the holes. If one has a hand crank drill that would make the holes a lot quicker. Boys would need to measure out and mark hole locations before drilling. May not be a work of art, could paint it if one wanted to, I never did, but it was useful. Elastic cord broke once and was replaced and it was as good as new in no time at all. Stosh

No, my boys have never taken on projects that are too big that they need coaches, advisers, or whatever. Showing leadership doesn't need to involve other adults as part of the process. I as SM have been the only adult that the boys seek out when they have questions, but they could ask others if they so choose. Of course my boys right from the beginning (Tenderfoot) start doing leadership projects. It might be a service project, organizing a hike, or whatever that by the time their Eagle project runs around they have many years of putting together a project on their own without any adult intervention. Yes, I have had Tenderfoot scouts organize service project for their patrol and do very well. I have also had 13 year old scouts do the troop popcorn sales without adults hanging around telling them what they should be doing. I also have never had a boy take on a project that requires subcontractors.... kinda defeats the purpose of the project. Never heard of a district-appointed coach in our council. Stosh

Scouter915, I kinda thought you knew it to be wrong or you wouldn't have taken the time to post. While some of the advice is great, I was surprised by the number of responders who kinda blew it off as no big deal. That bothered me more than raising the red flag on a gut check. Have we been that desensitized towards this whole idea of intellectual property is something one must pay for just like everything else? Stosh

I lived for one year in San Diego (1975-1976). That was 40 years ago. I knew Blacks Beach was a nudist beach at that time. The beach is not very readily accessible and if this doesn't sound like an accident to me. IF... this pack was not from the area, I could see it being an accidental hike to the area, but this area of the beach was common knowledge that if this is your thing, this is the place to go. There had to be at least a few of the parents/adults in the group who had heard about this area of the beach. If this be the case, then National is fully within it's responsibility to not trust the judgment of unit leaders. Stosh

Or one can just leave the tent at home. The offer only 10 degrees of warmth on a calm day. Wilderness Survival and winter camping instruction will totally convince one that the tent can be left at home without any problems. I tried it once, just once. After that it's a lot easier to go with other options that are more effective. Stosh

wdfa89, I think the reason the thread went on so long is not necessarily the actual slight of ethics, but the fact that we have people in our society that wouldn't take a candy bar off the shelf of a convenience store and walk out without paying, but at the same time have a movie to play for the boys and think nothing of the fact that what he stole was far more expensive than a stupid candy bar. Stosh

Does this mean Cub Scouts can't do family camps at KOA's? Game room?, Pool?, snack shop? free WIFI? all unavailable? just because they don't have the proper shower facilities? Bummer. Stosh

While protecting the one, we endanger the rest. That makes sense in today's PC world. Not the real world, just the PC world. Stosh

Ends justify the means...? That's the new moral compass? Stosh

How easily could a pandemic work? Ever hear of H1N1? Sure, it's in the news all the time as well as vaccinations for various mutations of it. By the way, the Spanish Flu pandemic of 1918 that killed 20-100 million, was a variation of H1N1. 3-5% of the world's population died. I never think twice about getting vaccinated. But don't worry about the H1N1 virus we haven't had an outbreak of it since 2009 (Swine Flu) Someday people may take this stuff seriously. Until then get your shots. Stosh

National promised these kids adventure... maybe it's time the create a program that does that. A scout is trustworthy, that should start at the top. Stosh

We are all responsible for taking care of our children. All mine received their shots as recommended. If there is an outbreak they are less likely to get sick. End of story. Oh, your kid? Well that's up to you to take care of your children. I had chicken pox, measles, mumps as a kid. It wasn't any fun. None of my kids have had these diseases, why? Vaccines weren't available when I was a kid, but my kids got the shots. I remember the polio vaccine when it came as a shot, not something you drank and it was a series of multiple shots over time. It was a scary thing back in the 1950's. I guess people that don't read history don't know about the flu epidemic of 1918. If they did, they'd get their flu shots. Stosh

Scouting is strengthened through competition. Just make your program better and don't worry about it. Others will be able to see the differences. Stosh

Playing the bugle isn't always the problem, using it as a functional tool is quite different. If done properly, a good bugler can do great things for a troop and even for camporee and summer camp programs. Of course that would mean that scouts would need to know what the bugle calls were so they would know what to do when they heard them. Playing "To the Colors" is not part of the flag raising ceremony, it is a heads up to the scattered troops to start traveling to where the colors are being posted. I have been in situations where thousands of people were communicated to using just the bugle. It's kinda neat, but not many people today are aware of how it works. Summer camps ring bells for meals instead of playing "Mess Call", no SPL meeting is ever announced by "Officers' Call", and no Sunday morning service is announced with "Church Call". As a matter of fact even if the bugler was the best in the world, the scouts around him wouldn't know what to do if they heard the call anyway. Bugle POR is kind of a waste of time for today's troops. But troops that take the time to really learn about it, it can be a tremendous communication tool to help the boys know what's going on. Stosh

How's about a Patrol Method Camporee. Instead of registering troops, register patrols. Then survey them to find out how many of those patrols are real patrols and how many are ad hoc patrols, see if any troop is capable to sending their boys as patrols or do they all have to gather for meals as a troop, how many troops don't have enough adults to do a patrol method where all the patrols are camping separately, etc. If done right it would be a great learning experience for troops to evaluate their set up as compared to a real Patrol Method program. I'm thinking it would be very telling with the number of troops that wouldn't show because they are incapable to camping as patrols....they don't have the equipment, don't have the youth leadership, don't have the adult control, don't have the normal structure, etc. to pull it off. Instead of an SPL meeting on Friday night, have a camporee PLC meeting. Each PL lets the group know what their patrol is going to provide to the camporee program. Divide the patrols into 2, 3 or 4 groupings. Each patrol in each of the groups is responsible for a program, demonstration or competition. Divide Saturday into 2, 3, or 4 matching sessions. If your patrol is assigned to the first session, you do your thing for the patrols to come see, and then the other sessions your patrol travels around to see what the other patrols have to offer during their session. How much adult involvement is necessary for this set up? VERY LITTLE and that's the beauty of it. Patrols (not scouts) do the planning and execution of the camporee. So what's the adults going to do? Well they gather together in groups of 4-6 mixed groups (no two leaders from the same troop) and they walk around watching and learning what the boys are doing and/or not doing so that they have something to take back to their troops to implement or improve their patrol method program. Sometimes if one were to quit talking and start watching and listening they get insights into things they wouldn't see if they hadn't stepped back and taken the time to learn. Before any of my boys take on leadership in my unit, they must take one meeting and do nothing but stand next to me and watch what's going on and then quietly tell me what they see. It only takes one meeting for the boys to realize that there's a ton of stuff going on that they don't see because they are too close to the situation or too involved to notice. Adults can learn this way as well. Awards are given out for the best patrol program, best patrol demonstration, and best competition, etc. Notice that no patrol can win more than once. Best teamwork in a patrol, patrol flag/yell, best PATROL dinner Saturday night (how much did the meal cost/boy, style of cooking? Dutch oven, reflector oven, degree of difficulty in making it, nutritionally balanced?, etc.), best ??? whatever. One patrol is responsible for Friday night registration (make sure each patrol is as far away from another patrol of the same troop, one might be 10' from another patrol, but that patrol is not one from your troop), another for Saturday am flags, another for Saturday pm flags, another for campfire program (no individual scout MC, done as a patrol), etc. If this sounds like all Hell is going to break lose on this camporee, you're right, that's what happens when it's boy-led, patrol-method setup. Stosh

Isn't there something basically wrong with conning young people into selling merchandize with a reward system attached. Every good thing a boy does in scouting shouldn't need to have a potential reward attached. Kinda defeats the whole mantra of "Do a Good Turn daily." My ASM thought it would be a good idea to offer weekly prizes to the boys who sold the most popcorn. They were really nice prizes and everyone of them was won by the ASM's grandson who was in the troop. That went over like a lead balloon. Instead of personal rewards, I have found that getting the boys to work on a common goal for the group works a lot better. This year's popcorn sale... what are we going to do with the money? Then let the boys work it out. We've become a society of people who will only focus on, "What's in it for me? Show me the money!" Stosh