Stosh

100 page manual? Just do the highlights.... tuck in the shirt. Most boys can't even do that much. Stosh

blw2 has it correct. For many years the scout uniform has taken a hit by not only society, but by scouts themselves. Scouters wear half uniforms and "class-b uniforms" and only while in activities. Otherwise they come to the meeting with it wadded up, put it on and immediately after closing flags, it's off and wadded up again. So, here's the solution to the whole thing. Do away with the uniform that no one wears correctly anyway and then quit yer bitchin' about scouts being invisible. They prefer it that way as to the majority of scouters I see out there. When you see a law enforcement officer, you know it. When you see a firefighter, you know it. When you see a doctor, you know it, same for nurses. But when you see a scout. Well, he's not concerned enough about his image to let you know. Stosh

What seems to be the focus here is what scope, measurement, level does a boy have to do to merit an EP? It's not a measure of metrics, it's a measurement of subjectivity. Does 4 cemeteries not count or does it have to be 5? What about 1 big one or 3 small ones? How do we measure to make sure the boy is honest? What was meant as an opportunity to demonstrate one's leadership abilities has turned into a functional management task that can be specifically defined with measurable metrics. Metrics cannot measure leadership, only the task at hand. This is the problem with the conflict in understanding the difference between leadership and management. I can show metrics until they come out the wazoo, but it will not reflect one iota on my leadership ability. I can organize a fantastic project, making sure the materials are on hand and paid for, the tools are ready to be used and all permits and approvals in hand and a schedule spelled out and publicized well in advance. But if no one shows up because I'm a domineering task-master PL and no one likes me, it is a rather stark and ominous announcement of my leadership ability. Stosh

At one time our education system was monitored by the people on the local school boards. For a couple hundred years we did pretty well. No, we did fantastic. Now we have abused the education system to the point where we have a national board of education that is totally and 100% out of touch with the people and are setting down standards that are basically a generic one size fits all. How's about going back to having the people decide what their kids learn and if they don't learn anything, that's okay too. We have plenty of examples of that even with the current system. Stosh

What if..., what if..., what if..., we can play that game all day long in a hypocritical setting and get nowhere. Simply go with the society's and legal standards set by society which is 18 years of age and one is an adult, and all discussion comes to a screeching halt. However, to keep the game rolling along, just pick two different numbers and we can keep this thread open indefinitely. Stosh

Yes, a proposal was submitted with no metrics, no expectations of success/failure, etc. just "a survey of stones". For the most part, no one would judge the success of the project and no known results were available or even predictable at the beginning. As it turned out, the boys went out on 5 different Saturdays and covered 5 different cemeteries. More than enough time was spent on the project. The scope was not important. The efforts did produce 19 stones that were eventually replaced by the VA. These were on graves of solders well over 100 years old. No family was made aware of the replacement stones. The only "benefit" was the awareness of the boys making the survey. The cemeteries didn't care one way or another. The VA director was "thankful" to the boys for their efforts. The only thing that was "accomplished" was 19 new stones on old graves which the boy identified and the VA did the actual work afterwards. It's kinda like retiring US flags in a private ceremony..... It's important that it is done, and done correctly. The people working on that EP learned that lesson very well. If I were to suggest to another boy to repeat this EP in different cemeteries, I would encourage him, in all honesty to the project, to NOT put metrics in the proposal. How can a boy honestly predict a survey finding? Accountability? The honesty of the scout is the real key of one's leadership character. I have often wondered about the honesty of a lot of EP's and it has absolutely nothing to do with metrics..... Stosh

What time period are we talking about with 4 score and 7 years if this document is taken out of context? And even with context, how many Americans understand what is being said in the Address anyway? Maybe Lincoln was right, as time as attested, maybe what was conceived in 1776 can't really survive. Stosh

Then there's always a political party that could arise out of nowhere and take over breaking the deadlock imposed by two entrenched parties. Republicans came out of nowhere and broke the deadlock on slavery and the abuses that institution produced. Of course the ensuing war was no picnic either. It forever changed the format of the US political scene and perpetuated started the encroachment on the US Constitution all at the same time. Stosh

I'm glad the instructions on my new lawn mower aren't written in King James' English. Someone could get seriously hurt. I sure am glad at least one of my grandchildren will be home schooled. Stosh

Evaluation AFTER the fact is not the same thing as briefly describing before the fact. If the boy proposes one thing and then does another there are no amount of metrics that are going to change a thing. Now it's up to the EBOR to determine if the requirement for the EP has been successfully completed. The scope of a project has nothing to do with the ability of the scout to show leadership and organizational skills. The boy doing the veterans' headstone project. Did it make one iota of difference if the boy did 100 grave sites or 1,000 grave sites to qualify for an EP? One cemetery or 25? What kind of metrics here make any difference? I'm going to build 100 picnic tables or just 10? I proposed 100, but fundraising efforts only secured materials for 10 tables. So now the boy doesn't get Eagle? Again I see too many opportunities for abuse by adults interfering with the EP process. Stosh

Bigotry and prejudice are not a natural occurrence, they have to be taught. Stosh

All I gotta say is that this gal must clean up really gooooood. Stosh

I can think of two EP's that did not require any measurable metrics to complete. I think that requiring that detailed of an explanation is going beyond the expectation of the requirement. "Briefly describe your project." That to me doesn't leave much room for a lot of metrics and other hoops that the boys are expected to jump through. I have seen boys briefly describe their project in 2 or 3 well thought out sentences. And they can do so without mentioning one metric. I will be doing the cleanup and landscaping around the new addition our church just completed. Everything will be provided for the landscaping by the congregation and I will be directing the work crews of church members, scouts and friends to complete the project. I will be organizing groups to go around to cemeteries and evaluating military grave sites to make sure all veterans have a marker, the marker is readable and if not make an application request to the Veterans' Administration to have a new marker placed. These are the last two EP's I was involved with in my troop. Both did a great job and had no problem with their projects or EBOR's. Stosh

I have seen what is discussed by the media from time to time, but I have never had anyone make any comments to me about BSA membership policies. The most discussion has been on this forum. I really don't think 99% of the people out there care one way or another. At least that's been my experience and there are a lot of people who are fully aware of my background in scouting. Stosh

I was around when Exploring went co-ed career back in the early 1970's. Did a stint working with a council setting them up. There were career posts and then general interest posts (i.e. high adventure). Back in the late 1990's the program changed again to split apart Exploring (Learning for Life career oriented) and Venturing (hobbies and high adventure). It's still the same old Exploring program having gone co-ed and taking on a few new names along the way to sell more merchandise to the registrants. Stosh

Not as fast as the urban downtown sections of open sidewalk store fronts. Small neighborhood strip malls are less costly to build and maintain. Safety comes from not having to travel any great distance to shop. It would seem that for convenience of safety's sake, everyone's world is getting smaller and smaller. Stosh

The Onion???? That explains it all. Stosh

The Ft. McCoy program is also referred to as the Challenge Academy which takes at-risk youth and attempts to turn them around with a boot-camp experience. Seems to be quite successful in that they have been around for quite some time now. Stosh

1/3rd of my boys did not come from the Cub Scout program. Mass marketing in today's society is far less effective than the one-on-one approach of personal contact. But getting new faces through the door and keeping them are two entirely different animals and must be viewed as such. Too often we feel that simply relying on feeder packs is the way to recruit. Unfortunately people are a bit more sophisticated today. Yes, BSA has a long standing reputation of honesty and helping old ladies cross the street. That's what the majority of people think of when they think Boy Scouts. But that's the program of yesterday and what the BSA promotes today doesn't seem to be anything like the old version. So what's the new version? Heck, even most scouters don't know what it is. In spite of all that I run the old program. I promote maturity, character and leadership development and I have people coming forward and seeking out our troop. No, we don't recruit. We're young, we're developing and a huge influx of boys at this point would be very disruptive. Did a new boy orientation last week and I've just gotten a contact request to come visit tomorrow from another new boy (11 year old, non-Cub Scout). How these people are hearing about our program, I don't know, but they do. Maybe people still rely on local reputations rather than national ones for their boys. Stosh

Fort McCoy in Wisconsin has a program similar to this. Stosh

One can market Scouting anyway one wishes, but the political climate we find ourselves in and the current societal norms being changed is not going to bring back Scouting to the glory days of the 60's. Everyone knows that 100 good stories about scouting can hit the internet and go viral, but one negative story will wipe it all out. And it's not just scouts. Other groups face this challenge as well. When I was a kid the police were pigs and our military personnel were baby-killers, now they're heroes. Christians and Jews have drawn negative media attention and as with the PC thread indicates, unless you are in the Junior High "In Club" you're a nobody loser. The maturity and sophistication level of the US society in general has pretty much declined over the past couple of generations. Stosh

Rick's got it right, people are not avoiding being outside, they are afraid of society which won't let them go. The world we live in has been successfully transformed into the ability to no longer rely on having to be outdoors unless it is to move from one sanctuary to the next. If you find it hard to believe, look at the number of skywalks and malls that have replaced storefronts and sidewalks. Remember, since the 1960's even sidewalks have become obsolete. No one uses them. I used to live right across the street from a school and had a sidewalk that went nowhere that the city required me to shovel even when no one ever used it. Not only are we in constant communication with our children, we even have GPS tracking to keep tabs on them. If the cell phone isn't enough, the under-the-skin chip will work just as well. Growing up I didn't realize a residence could have a security system. I thought they were for jewelry stores only. Street cameras? Even microphone systems in big cities now that can pinpoint the location of gunfire in the neighborhood. Next thing one is going to hear is parents requiring their scout to have a cell phone, have it able to be recharged so that if he is ever lost in the woods they can find him. And so why would any educated parent ever want to let their kids go out side to "blow the stink off" like we did 50 years ago? Since 9-11 we have fully developed a culture of fear. The terrorists have won. Stosh

My boys get invited out regularly for hikes, cross-country skiing and snowshoeing during the winter months of Wisconsin. It is surprisingly busy out there this time of year. My boys have yet to take me up on my "adventures" but my daughter took me up on an invite this past week thinking her old man couldn't be having that much fun in the snow. She stood out in the woods and fed the birds peanuts out of her hand. I don't think she'll question me again for a while. It's kinda nice to ID birds that are sitting in trees and feeding on the ground. It's a real rush to ID them when they are sitting on your hand. Stosh

Sorry people I was alive when this whole discussion went down. Adulthood was defined as 21, then when the Vietnam War broke out the anti-war sentiment got on the "we're sending our children to go fight!" So the government dropped the age to 18, but then when the parties started to take over campuses, they upped the drinking age to 21 for no apparent reason. Now we have the nowhere people. Pre-18 year olds can be served alcohol by their parents in my state. Once they turn 18, they can't. How's that for myopic simple-mindedness? Stosh

Too bad that argument validation doesn't hold true. There are plenty of DUI's written for people over 21. I have even read about people in their 70's getting DUI's. That's a bogus argument. Stosh