Stosh

As a SM of a troop that really strives for patrol-method, boy-led, I have to think two or three times before I put my foot down on the boys. The adults, however, I call foul without having to think but once. For me, the SM is the #1 and only support-advocate for the boys. It is my job to maintain a constant level of opportunity and if I see or even suspect adults doing anything the boys should be doing, I'm right there correcting things. It even works with parents.... I have mastered, "The Look". Currently my ASM is also the District Commissioner who wants to see how this patrol-method, boy-led thingy really works. She has hung around for almost a year now so she must be please with what she sees. Don't try and over think this whole thing. Surprisingly with the patrol-method, boy-led I have never had to have more than one ASM. Basically the two of us are there because BSA requires 2-deep leadership. The boys do just fine by themselves. Just remember they are assistants to the SM. They serve at his/her pleasure. Stosh

I was the only person in my office which employed well over 500 people that wore a sport coat every day to work. No tie, but a sport coat. I was teased a lot about it as were an others that came to work out of the blue wearing a suit and tie. Like we knew you were applying for a different job or you just came back from a funeral. About 15 years ago the grunge style became popular. Loose fitting close, looked like you slept in it. Well the younger generation latched on to that like my generation went after blue jean bell bottoms. Eventually it became wear anything you want. This is why young girls look like hookers and young men look like they haven't gotten themselves together since their last visit to the restroom. Try and make that fit into an environment of uniformity. It just doesn't work. Remember the old book, "Dress for Success"? Well I don't think the younger generation really worries too much about that anymore. I have found over the years that how a person dresses says a lot about their personality, likes and attitudes. No one ever has to tell a kid how to put on a sport uniform. But get them ready for school? Flip-flops, shorts, t-shirt are not appropriate wear for mid-winter in Wisconsin... But they still wear it. It's not just the kids, either. Go to Walmart and spend a hour just sitting and watching people. Better yet look at the pictures of Walmart people on the internet. It's kinda scary. Stosh

Point of clarification here.... Did she say you were not crazy for thinking about it or not crazy for doing it? Two different animals here. "I will take over as SM for a 1 year period so I have the opportunity to train a permanent replacement. I will need an adult willing to take over make a commitment within the next 6 weeks." That oughta do it.... The way it stands right now is if someone has to step up, they do so without any support. If you offer a year's worth of experienced support someone might be more inclined to step up. If at all possible, have more than one step up. Say you will be needing 3 ASM's to train that after a year, one of them will need to step up to SM. No one wants to be hung out to dry by themselves and this sounds a lot like that. Stosh

I don't want this to be taken the wrong way, but this is going to take a lot more than a priest to get her through. I am an ordained minister and in this case my role would be to drive her and her parents to specific specialty professional counselors who work with people in this situation every day of the week all day long. There is a parental component in this, there is a spiritual component in this but there is a critical emotional component in this that neither you nor the priest are in a position to help other than getting her there. So, as politely and respectfully as I can make it. Get off the computer, look in the front of the phone book, they sometimes have a number to call, "First call for Help" hotline kinda thing, find a place call them that you're coming, go to your daughter, take her by the hand and go for a short ride to a place that can help her. Then call the priest and have him meet you there. I would want my daughter to think me over reactive, overly concerned parent than I would want her to think the only protective thing between her and the world is a German Shepherd. Stosh

Get her to counseling. Just like any other injury. If she broke her leg you wouldn't hesitate to get to the ER. Well, quit hesitating. There are a ton of helping programs out there. You can't help her anymore than you can set a broken leg. She needs you to help! Be there for her. Stosh

Unfortunately my advice won't help you. My boy quit scouts 20 years ago and I've moved on from ASM to SM of two other troops as well as being UC for others. I guess I enjoy outdoor activity more than my son. As long as my health holds out and I enjoy it, I'm sticking with the program. I still have a wait, my 3 grandchildren are girls. Stosh

By the way, does anyone have a picture of a Norman Rockwell painting of a scout in anything other than a field uniform? Stosh

Gee, MattR, the policy statement states that the t-shirt MAY be worn outdoors, but doesn't say it SHOULD be worn. This is where misinformation get started. The t-shirt option is not suggested as anything official other than other parts of the official uniform can be worn with it. I'm thinking blw2's Law of Entropy is alive and well And to further clarify the misunderstanding. BSA sells Boy Scout blue jeans (at least they used to) with a clear warning in the catalog that they were NOT supposed to be worn with the field uniform shirt. Summer camps and BSA sell t-shirts as mementos of past activities, not as a replacement for the field uniform. When BSA comes out with terminology other that FIELD uniform, I'll rethink my definition of the BSA uniform. Until then my boys wear the uniform (complete uniform) when ever there is a scout activity, indoors or outdoors, doesn't make one bit of difference. Yes, I have a ton of BSA t-shirts I have collected up over the years. They are great when I'm out in the garden. My paint shirt I believe is an old camp t-shirt from many moons ago. The best thing about the t-shirts is that I don't have to take it off when I have my after-mowing-the-lawn-on-a-hot-day beer. Stosh

Ever watch a train wreck in slow motion? If not, here's your opportunity. To give you the down and dirty quick answer, here's what I would do. Get the adults all in the same room along with the COR and UC and spell out exactly what you have said in this post. After all they are your concerns. If you are not willing to step up and take SM, then one would have to assume this other guy is in by default. Explain the BSA program Patrol-Method, boy-led etc. and what you envision for the troop and that you are available to take over as SM. The other gentleman can plead his case as well. It's up to the COR to decide what's best for his organization. If the COR goes with you, the troop's got a chance to get a big push in the right direction. If the COR goes with the other guy, it's up to your son, but a fatherly push to a real scout troop would be in order. If your son wishes to stay with his buddies, you can always drop back to be an occasional fill-in parent/chaperone when needed by your son. As your son gets older he will be loosening his bond with dear old dad and start hanging with peers so your having to subject yourself to this adult-led, troop method SM will decrease over time. Best of luck, but this kind of crap goes on all the time. You are not being exposed to anything out of the ordinary. I had a similar situation where I stepped forward to offer my services as a SM to a floundering troop. Being boy-led, patrol method didn't fit their idea of a scout troop either and within 6 months, they folded the troop. Don't take it personally, just work with your son to support his decisions on what he thinks is best for him, and you do what's best for you., too. Stosh

I often thought it quite counter-productive to recruit heavily in the spring of the year only to do nothing for the summer months. Here one has all these new boys all fired up to join a program that doesn't do anything for the first 3 months. Scouting in general has the image of a great outdoor program and these youngsters see nothing but summer vacation and goofing off ahead and Scouting doesn't really exist for all practical purposes. These are the kids on the verge of getting heavily connected to electronics and here we can be taking these boys out for a brown-bag day hike in the woods at no big hassle by the adults. Fishing? Sure, why not drown a worm or two while sitting on the bank talking about all the good things Scouting does. Go to the park and play a game of something, have a picnic. Get to know your boys. Recruiting is more than just getting them through the door, it means keeping them. Signing them up and then having them wait for 4 months to get going is a disservice to the boys who's attention span is from today to tomorrow at best. I ran a weekly, year around program for my cubs and eventually they all Eagled.- 100% It's time to give them the program they paid for. They paid and registered for 12 months, lets give the customer what they paid for. Stosh

blw2, I do believe that the activity uniform is a specific red polo style shirt sold by the BSA. The class-b designation is any t-shirt that has some BSA reference on it. It should match the athletic workout pants, pajama bottoms, Hawaiian shorts or blue jeans the boy is wearing. Stosh

Senteninal947 - My apologies if you thought the post was directed at you. In no way was it. Often people post an idea that I respond to and don't even consider the source. We are talking about identify/visibility of the scouting program. And yet people tend to not be visible by not wearing the one item that distinctly identifies them. That's the bovine issue here. Why is everyone concerned about visibility and then go out of their way to be invisible to the world. Here's one of my Eagles doing his project of cleaning up an abandoned veterans memorial park. He is in the process of pulling a muddy log out of the trout pond. It is also interesting to note that half of the 20-25 people there were non-scouts, but all the scouts were in full uniform. As you can see identity the boy as a scout and the picture in the newspaper were not posed/polished PR pictures. He is easily recognized as a scout even though he's wearing a 1960's vintage uniform. The point I was making was the uniform is not reserved just for formal occasions. Indoors were no one see us, it's okay to wear the field uniform but outside a scout MAY just wear a t-shirt and other appropriate attire. How many fields do you know of that are inside? People today have redefined what field uniform means. That's the point being made. When BSA says one MAY wear other clothing at a scout activity outdoors, it doesn't change the policy, it only makes it more difficult to preserve the identifying aspects of the program we are discussing in this thread. Tthe BSA also says a scout MAY wear a t-shirt with scout pants or other appropriate attire when outdoors, i.e. in public.. I have never seen a scout wearing scout pants very often even with his field uniform. So that policy although quoted as a reference is not observed very often if at all. The truly unfortunate part of the discussion is on the visibility of the scouting program and the one item that will identify them to the public in a heartbeat is the one item that is abused the most. I find the whole discussion rather trite after all. Here we are discussing how national need to step up the PR and get noticed and 99% of the units out there are doing everything they can to counter their efforts. Again, my apologies if you took my post to be focused at you. It wasn't The uniform is official called the BSA field uniform, not dress uniform. That's the point I was trying to make. Stosh

Our council must be pretty easy going then. I have been involved for 20+ years in 3 different troops, served as UC for many years and never heard of anyone using a EP mentor. We just have the boys read the book, do the orientation presentation provided by the council for all Life scouts and they just do their thng. The only EP that hit a bump in the road that I am aware of was the veteran tombstone project that was questioned but not denied. Stosh

Unfortunately Fred, the issue at this point has gone beyond the objective into the subjective mode. The SM and prior BOR's have done a great disservice to this young man by allowing him to progress through the ranks without catching this. We like to rely on don't ask, don't tell approach, but now the EBOR has asked and the cat is out of the bag. It probably is not just the boy's fault, others allowed it to happen. Life is not fair and I wouldn't want to be on the EBOR that has to make the determination for this situation. The fuzzy logic that can be applied to this situation is abundantly clear and any suggestion that skirts the policy draws the EBOR members into the problem of honesty as well. I really hate getting sucked into situations like this and for this reason alone, I would never sit on a EBOR or any BOR for that matter. The SM should have been honest up front with this boy. He didn't and now the boy will need to answer for himself without any one there to help him. It is unfortunate all the way around for everyone. Stosh

Twocubdad, don't want to quote your whole post, but just pick up on a couple of points. The verbiage of the requirement is quite clear and the conclusion drawn doesn't fit. It assumes more than what is written. What a scout plans might be scheduling, organizing, coordination of materials, etc. not necessarily design of the project. That's an assumption that goes beyond what a boy could quite honestly define as beyond the scope of the requirement. If someone wanted a footbridge built across a small stream wouldn't it be prudent to have someone who knows stress factors, spring flooding, load capacities and such rather than have some 16 year old kid put something together? Even building contractors who build buildings rely on professional architects to work with the client to make sure they get what they want and it's within code. I seriously doubt whether all EP's are totally designed by the scout or whether they rely on project plans provided by others who are more competent to do so. Also the difference between leadership and management by definition is NOT vision. Management's focus is on the successful culmination of a project. Leadership on the other hand focuses on the people doing the task, not the task itself. If a manager was responsible for building a bridge, he could in fact do it by himself because the only thing that defines success is the completion of the task. If he wishes to have others help him in the task he has to lead others to willingly join him in completing the task. Ever have an eagle candidate schedule a work day and no one shows up? His vision? What's that got to do with anything. His vision is his Eagle medal. Maybe he's the only one that shares that vision. As far as the VFW/AmLegion suggestions? Well they are supposed to identify poor and aging stones when they place Memorial Day flags. Well, they don't! That's the problem. The Veterans' Admin was elated when the boy came forward and wanted to do it as a project. They were so excited they must have missed the part where they did a background check on his religious affiliation or sexual orientation. I knew of poor stones so I knew the boys would find some. I also know those military stones are made of marble and last about 100 years. We have hundreds of buried veterans who have had stones far longer than that. (I cheated on my knowledge base. I do stone maintenance of military stones in national cemeteries as a volunteer) If those stones go bad, those in local cemeteries must do so as well. Stosh

I'm sure the Marine Corps soldier that has to dress up in his/her dress blues isn't happy or proud about it either. Those wool coats must be a bear in warm weather. I'm also certain those police officers who have to wear body armor and dark blue uniforms must complain all the time too. And what idiot robs a bank in the middle of July wearing a ski mask for crying out loud. Some people just don't care what they wear as long as it's personally comfortable. A uniform is optional, so knock yourself out all those who find it objectionable in some way. But then don't be surprised when someone mistakenly assumes you to be a parent or spouse of a scouter at a scout function. I once thought I was misidentified while wearing a scout uniform. My girlfriend and I were having dinner at a Chinese buffet and when I was finished I asked for my bill because it wasn't coming quickly and I had to get to a scout meeting. The waitress told me someone had picked up the tab. She indicated a young couple a few booths away that had two small kids. (one infant, one toddler). I went over there and told them I wasn't a military soldier and that because of that mistake I would like to pay for my girlfriend and my dinners. The young man stood up, shook my hand and smiled saying. I know you are a scoutmaster and I appreciate all you do for the youth in our community. I was kinda surprised. Well, I don't expect that to ever happen again, but surely just the uniform kept me from being invisible in that situation. I have had others stop by and thank me as well, without picking up the tab for dinner. I had a situation this past summer that was quite similar. I got a flat tire on my car while on vacation. I pulled over and a pickup truck pulled in behind me. The driver got out and said he noticed I had a flat and then proceeded to change it. (I must look like I'm a senior citizen... oh, yes, I am) I offered to pay him for his kindness and he refused. I asked him if he was ever a scout and he smile and said just one word. "Eagle", got back in his truck and drove off. Oh, how I wished the world wasn't full of invisible scouts. Stosh

What does BSA say and expect as part of membership in the organization? The boy has made it clear he has no belief in any god, not even under the principles of Buddhism and other non-god "religions". The Devil's in the detail. How much more "evidence" is going to be necessary to be able to honor one's own commitment to the BSA movement? Yes, it's difficult to be helpful, courteous, and kind to the boy, but then is one being obedience, brave and reverent to the BSA policy as well? Thus the conundrum. But scoutergipper might just be right. How honest has the boy been up to this point knowing what the policy is and yet ignored it for his own personal gain? Maybe we ought to be discussing A Scout is Trustworthy instead of A Scout is Reverent. Stosh

How does one honestly get to an EBOR without knowing about the BSA standing on religion as part of it's program and expectations? Simply side-stepping it at the EBOR is a cop-out and equally questionable when it comes to preserving the integrity of the program. Any boy that weekly professes "On my honor I promise to do my best to do my duty to GOD and my country...." and has no intention of honoring that oath is not Eagle material in my opinion. I suppose that they then can't be held accountable for "helping other people at all times" as well? Then when you see Eagle Scouts who haven't time to help others, don't complain. It's a problem of one's own creation. For boys with this attitude the Eagle rank is nothing more than a dishonest way of getting ahead in the military and padding one's college application as well as their employment resumes. Every bit of this "problem" revolves not around one's religion, but squarely on one's honesty.... and if one thinks about it long enough, aren't the two kinda related? Stosh

The era of shirts I use come in 100% cotton and are always looking wrinkled. Not much use in the winter, but then one can wear other garments more appropriate underneath. The shirt I wear is a cotton/polyester blend which is still poor quality for winter, but it doesn't need ironing. This is my workhorse of a uniform. The third shirt, and I have one, is a wool blend of some sort which is used when I'm going to be doing a lot of outdoor stuff in the winter. Not much wear on that uniform. I tend to like the cotton/poly because of it's wrinkle-free appearance, durability of the poly and quick dry properties. I can wash it out the evening before, let it dry overnight and put it on damp the next morning and be dry within an hour. The uniform I dearly love is a reproduction of the 1910 uniform with pants, shirt and tunic. 100% wool, keeps me warm and looks really good. If It is a bit warm out, the tunic is removed and a loose fitting wool shirt is really nice. This is my go-to uniform for spring and fall camporees when the weather turns a bit on the cool side. In really hot weather it can be a bit questionable. But I have done a lot of Civil War reenacting and know how to accommodate heavy wool uniforms in 100-degree heat. I wore it for 100 Centennial Jamboree and I didn't go down from the heat. It did get pretty hot that week. Some of the best uniform materials came out of the 50's and 60's. I have boys wearing the red-piped mule-eared pants and they never complain about wearing out. Getting too small, yes, but they just get passed down to the next smaller boy. Stosh

Saving one's field uniform for dress only is a load of bovine excrement. No where is it ever described as a dress uniform and military terminology of class-b for a t-shirt ever acceptable. They are just excuses made up by scouters who don't follow the BSA protocol on uniforming in the first place. I have the same pair of uniform pants I purchased for WB back in 1993 that I still wear today. Durability is not an issue. My "everyday" field uniform shirt I wear to meetings to go with my 1993 pair of pants as a temporary patch dated 1993 on it as well. I have never ironed my shirt, it is the polyester/cotton blend fabric. I have never bothered to purchase the new breathable crap uniforms of recent years with the state of the art fabric improvements. The old field uniforms from ages past work just fine and have lasted me 20+ years of weekly wear. Yep this is the same uniform I wear to Eagle Court of Honors as well as whitewater canoeing. It's the same one I wear on Scout Sunday and walk ditches picking up garbage. I have no idea how many times it has gone through the washing machine, both the one in the basement as well as the plunger bucket of summer camp/Jamboree. I did notice that my tan shirt has now faded. I used to be SM of Troop 91, now it's Troop 1 and I can tell the color difference under the removed numeral. I haven't decided whether me or my uniform is going to wear out first, but at the present time, we're both going strong. It is called the BSA field uniform and there is only one style which makes it a truly UNI-form. Stosh

If one were to accept this premise, then every EP that involves construction, i.e. a gazebo or a foot bridge, or picnic tables or picnic shelter, the scout would need to architect the blue prints for the project to qualify???? If the boy is expected to provide professional landscaping plans, then those doing construction should be expected to provide the blueprints as well. If someone else is doing the gazebo blueprint, then "all the scout is doing is providing labor, which is the dreaded mid level management. But if the the scout designs the plan, he really is in charge of everything." Seriously? I don't think anyone in any capacity expects a scout to what professionally trained people do for a living in order to get credit on an Eagle Project? If this was brought up to my attention, I would cry foul, "adding to the requirements" in a heartbeat. Sorry, that's well beyond the "show leadership" in a project in my book. As a matter of fact I believe a boy could very effectively show his leadership ability by leading professional laborers on a architecturally designed project Team leads and supervisors do it all the time. So the boy builds a garage storage unit for a church. He coordinates the work of the backhoe operator to get the site ready, then the masons to put in the footings, the cement workers to pour the flooring, the construction workers to put up the building, the roofers to shingle the roof and finally the electrician to put in lighting and the garage door opener. There's a lot of leadership, organizing, scheduling and leadership needed to pull that all together. Some people even do that full time for a living. Where does it say that the project has to involve any scouts or scouters other than the eagle candidate? Stosh

Landscaping according to what the church plans that have been outlined? Surely this is no different than the construction blueprints of a gazebo or foot-bridge some boy put up. The boy doesn't have to design the landscaping, just guide the groups in doing what the plan says. If some boy says he is going to construct a gazebo outside the nursing home so the residence can go outside and enjoy the summer weather, does it really make any difference if the gazebo is round, square, rectangular hexagonal or octagonal? Putting in bushes or cutting lumber according to spec is not an intricate part of a "brief description." Obviously we are back to expectations that go beyond the advancement requirements, something forbidden in all BSA literature. Surely if one is going to assume something, a church is not going to just let some kids toss in some bushes willy-nilly around something as important as a church building. One has to assume that the boy has been in extensive dialog with the church council as to exactly what it is they want provided. Requiring that to be explained in detail briefly is a ridiculous as expecting the boy to provide the number of nails and screws that will be needed for the gazebo. Neither are part of a brief description in anyone's book, except maybe some over-controlling scouters. And by the way of the two projects questioned by the advancement committee, this one wasn't. The second project was questioned, but not because of it's scope. It was questioned because it wasn't deemed a worthwhile Eagle Project. They questioned the benefit definition. Who's going to benefit from this project? Dead veterans? Their families? the cemeteries? the VA? Fortunately others besides the advancement committee realized that doing the right thing is benefiting a lot of people in a lot of different ways. Far too many to enumerate in a brief description. And seriously? In this day and age, how many Eagle Projects sponsored by a federal agency are you aware of? And it made the newspapers for the community and state to see. That was quite a coup to see... Stosh

Once one accepts the fact that all politicians are crooked liars, then life is a lot better. I always vote out the incumbents because I believe that an entrenched politician is far more dangerous than a novice learning the ropes. But if the public is stupid enough to keep voting in these clowns, then it's no one's fault but their own. And when did it ever become common knowledge that countries and ideologies last for very long? Rome may have lasted 1000 years, but more recently look at the longevity of most modern countries of today. The US is well past an acceptable expiration date. Stosh

On my trek at Philmont, the SM would not allow the uniform. All had to wear troop t-shirt. Needless to say, it was the one event in 30+ years of scouting I have no pictures of except the formal pic at base camp the first day where uniform was required. Both times I ever rolled a canoe in whitewater, I was in full uniform. It dries. At summer camp, the boys can wear anything they want when in camp. But if they wish to go anywhere else, they need uniform. Flags every morning in camp, uniformed. Eat in uniform then off to MB classes in uniform. Waterfront they don't need to be in uniform, but going to and from it's required. The other side effect is I can spot my scouts all the way across the lake! Blaze orange neckers help with that. In one of my previous troops, the honor scouts all wore full uniform all the time and had the expedition hats with colored hat bands/cords so from a distance not only could I ID my boys, but also the PL's ASPL, and SPL, from quite a distance. At 10' can I tell if all the patches are correct? Nope, but at 100 yards in a crowd, I can tell you if he's one of my boys. Once one figures out the importance of the uniform, the leadership and even management of the group is greatly facilitated. Who would have thought that the necker would be a source of patrol pride. Blaze orange neckers for the troop, but the serged edging is the patrol color. Stosh