Stosh

"I think there are two reasons why this Scout was 1st class before he became QM The SM feels that the Quartermaster position needs to be held by an older Scout I also know the SM didn’t think this boy was a good fit for the Quartermaster position." Maybe one ought to un-wad one's briefs and loosen up on the adult-led reins here. Now that we have established what the SM wants, let's spend a little time figuring out what the boys want, after all it's their program. I do believe the recommendation is that the SPL assigns the QM, not the SM! Stosh

I will be the first to admit that some of the best lessons in life I have learned in the past 64 years have been my failures. So the new kid shows up with empty gas cylinders. So what. The back lash he got from his buddies will set the record straight for next time. So for one outing the boys needed to do their cooking on charcoal or wood campfire. Be prepared! This is scouting. The PL needs a lesson on basic problem solving. The chain reaction of problems might be just the thing to get the boys in gear to start making better decisions than just whining about how the new QM screwed up. My SMC with the new QM would simply start out, "Is this a good way to be taking care of your boys?" His excuse is of no real value, but what he does next time will probably be a bit different, maybe he'll forget to check the Dutch ovens..... or there will be more boys than tents. Any and all of these issues create challenging problem solving opportunities for the boys. Quit wasting time looking backwards to the mistakes and start looking forward to the solutions. I still think a newbie, untrained, semi-motivated QM is better than nothing. Stosh

There isn't unless the person outs themselves or other out them. Hit or miss at best. I knew one of one of my Eagle scouts that was seriously questioning his orientation and as it turns out, it opens the flood gates to a whole new issue that BSA is going to have to some day address. What do you do with homosexual Eagle Scouts who want to be troop leaders? Like one can't see that train wreck coming down the tracks..... Stosh

Quarse, that scenario has been around since day 1 in Venturing, 15 years!. Nothing new to report on that front. College sophomores/juniors have been chatting it up with high school freshmen for quite some time. Unfortunately it is not the new elephant, it's the one I've been commenting on well before I even got on this forum. I have been lucky in my case in that I have more experience in co-ed youth groups than with scouting Exploring/Venturing so my radar is always on. This new elephant, sexual orientation came back to bite the BSA when the double whammy of age AND orientation played out in the original hypocrisy of age differences. If adult venturers can be homosexual in one program, why not the other programs? That's a hotter social topic than just age. Stosh

BINGO Torchwood! My "SPL" at summer camp last summer hadn't earned his TF yet. Did a great job! Too often adults get in the way and start muddling things up. There is nothing wrong with a TF being QM. He doesn't get credit for it for advancement, but then one can hold a POR just for the experience of holding a POR! Okay, you have 4 patrols and no QM. Each patrol then designates one member to be a QM for the patrol. Of course they can all be TF because it's not some sort of advancement, big shot position that's adult designated FC or above that's on everyone's radar. Then the patrol QM's hold a mini-QMC (Quartermaster Council) and they divvy up the equipment as needed for the outing. Those four kids all learn how to do the job so that when they all get FC they get to fight over who going to get the troop QM position and get some advancement credit. Okay I have 6 Life scouts sitting on their hands doing nothing and a TF that wants to be QM. I have no problem with the TF doing the job. Give me one kid with interest in the task and heart for the job and he'll do far better than anyone else who's going to just sit around on their hands and do nothing. Stosh

dcsimmons, I agree there is a modicum of leadership with the historian, but it begs the question of who is he leading? From what you have described, this boy would be an excellent manager and to me that is what a large portion of what a POR is all about. I think the terminology used by BSA is correct. Position of Responsibility or Position of Leadership. To me there is a significant difference. A Scribe, Historian or Webmaster have far less need for leadership than say a PL, SPL or TG. Scribes, Historians and Webmasters have certain tasks spelled out for them that measure their responsibility. You gave an excellent job description for Historian. Everything listed there can be done alone, but the boy, with no one else around required to be led. A Webmaster can sit in his bedroom and do his work with no one else around. On the other end of the spectrum are the PL's. What is their defining duties? WAY TO MANY to enumerate. Instead his duty is to build relationships, assist and help his assigned boys be successful and make sure everyone is having a good time. That is a lot of leadership and not much tasking. Yes to a certain extend a good leader does have some management skill to go along with his leading people. A PL wouldn't have a job if it wasn't for the people following him. On the other hand a Webmaster doesn't need anyone or anything else, but the task at hand. All POR's have a varying amount of management tasks assigned to them, but some have very little leadership expectation. In all seriousness an APL has more leadership expectations than say the Webmaster or Historian or Librarian.... Heck the Grubmaster has more leadership requirements than the Historian or Librarian. DC on the otherhand is ALL leadership, pure and simple. "Hey, boys, let's go over here and play a game while the DL gets things ready!" He has no idea what his "job" is going into a den meeting, but he still leads (the boys are looking for him to follow) the moment he walks through the door. Stosh

Someone said that the red polo shirt which was semi-designated as an activity uniform to be worn with BSA pants, belt, socks, is no longer being sold so that idea must not have gotten much traction. With the "just try it" attitude of the BSA I guess without any official stance, it might have just passed into history. I do remember seeing it touted as an "activity uniform" in some BSA literature, but not for some time now. Because of this there seemed to be some kind of tacit approval that the red polo could then be substituted with a T-shirt. I don't remember seeing anything about that in print. When in camp, the boys can wear whatever they feel is comfortable and I'm thinking the t-shirt (cotton) is more comfortable than the polo weight shirt or even the uniform shirt with all the badges and stuff that is kinda cumbersome. The only thing that is required are hard soled shoes/boots. No sandals or flip-flops or slippers. I have noticed that some of the boys test the limits and wear their uniform shirts back to camp from the waterfront because they didn't want to put their uniform pants on over wet swim trunks. I look the other way on situations like that. It is nice to walk around summer camp during MB sessions to see how the boys are doing. If I don't see a uniform in the group, I know my boys aren't taking that MB. The camp we attend has the Welding MB and I counsel the boys to remove their uniforms for that MB in that no amount of Mom's laundry scrubbing is going to get out the burn holes. I once saw a posting about whether or not the OA sash was to be worn during an OA workday where it would get dirty. The discussion went back and forth as to whether looking dirty showed the boy rolled up his sleeves and worked, or to save it for ceremonial purposes only. Well, the uniforms in my troop are kinda like the first option. They are stained and mended and a few have a couple of burn holes from one of the many campfires he sat around. But for the COH's they are cleaned and mended the best they are going to be. I had one boy who's uniform was more than a bit "scruffy" up close at his ECOH. But you couldn't tell from the picture in the paper. After 20+ years on some of my uniform parts, they look a bit more than "scruffy". You know it's scruffy when the patches look better than the shirt or pants. Stosh

Some days you're more important than on others? Some days you have to spend a little time in the corner? Last night I stayed at a Holiday Inn so I should know these things, trust me. Stosh

I already have a spot picked out for the camp site. The trail's next. Absolutely no way to get to the site except on foot, no logging roads or trails other than animal trails in the area. The trail is going to need a lot of switch-backs, the hillside is steep. "If you build it, they will come!" I have to build it first. I'm already planning for scout visitors.... but it will be one patrol at a time. No room for a whole troop. There is cell phone reception at the site, it's less than 1/4 mile from the house and no adults are allowed out of the farm yard. Scouts only at the site. I have $1,000,000 homeowner umbrella policy. Stosh

SSScout, I totally agree with everyone dresses for the group they identify with. Right now I am retired so I'm sitting here wearing blue jeans, a flannel shirt and hiking boots. It's winter here so I have on my long johns because when I'm done here, I'm heading outside, the sun is shining and there's no clouds in the sky! So let's flip the record over to the other side. Is the reluctance to wear the BSA uniform correctly an expression of "individuality" (Do your own thing kind of thingy) and/or a disdain for wanting to identify with the group in the first place? On scout meeting days, especially Cubs, we all wore our uniforms to school because we didn't have time to run home and change. We didn't carry backpacks either to stuff them into and one still had to wear the pants either way. The peer group seemed to believe it was a good thing to wear the uniform and be identified with scouting. I don't see that in today's youth. So why are boy joining scouting? Because Mom and Dad say so? Dad was an Eagle and was Grandpa? They need the Eagle cred? It might be a good question to ask your boys. Stosh

Hypocrisy has a terrible time justifying itself over the long run. Stosh

Another good idea to bum out the kids is in later summer when the flowers are all in bloom, drive along the road at 55 mph and identify 10 different plants within a mile. Not that difficult to do but the boys keep scrambling through my forbes books checking to make sure I'm correct. They learn a lot doing it that way. On a longer trip than that, 10 animals is quite easy to do as well. Of course it always helps to have a forester/naturalist for a wife that taught me a lesson on how the games is played in the first place. Won't be much longer and we'll be out scouring the woods for the early woodland flowers that will be appearing soon. Just bought a new house in the country with 9 acres of woods behind the house on a hillside. My summer project is to build her her nature trail. Unfortunately it's #1 on the Honey-Do list. It would seem that the trail has to go all the way to the top of the bluff and there build a campsite. I'm not making this up, she's serious about it. Her kids all worked their way through college doing commercial Alaskan salmon fishing. Her first job was as a forester with the US Forestry Service in Alaska. Since I married her I have only one pair of dress shoes in the closet that get dragged out for the occasional wedding or funeral. I have several pair of hiking boots however. Outdoors is a lifestyle, not a visit. It's a bit like living in the woods vs. going to the zoo. Unfortunately BSA sometimes ends up with the zoo visit mentality and thus we have a number of BSA troops that either have limited outdoor activity or restricted number attending those activities, both of which have been discussed on the forum. I sure hope the last child in the woods isn't there just for a visit. Stosh

I wouldn't give the job to the SPL, I would have the SPL give the responsibility to the patrols. The patrols need to maintain their own equipment and if they come up short? Well, there's no troop QM to back him up and he'll have to figure out something else. Basic problem solving necessary for good leadership from the PL's. It does work until someone gets tired of going without and will step up. GBB training indicates a well run patrol using the patrol-method already has a QM. No troop QM means he doesn't have any support so he's going to have to work a bit harder for his patrol. Stosh

It only goes to show how ignorant people appear when they try to duplicate the norms of another society when they are imitating stereotypes. There has to be a better way of presenting the program without exploiting others. Stosh

Oh, how the "wise" always seem to end up looking foolish in the end. The life cycle of the politician. Stosh

QM is not a position of leadership. It is a position of responsibility. Big difference and a common advancement mistake. Explain to me the leadership expectations of a Historian... Life scouts who do not show leadership (not just POR's, but real leadership) have no business being Eagle scouts. GBB training places a unique emphasis on having everyone in a patrol with some kind of leadership responsibility for the group. ANY scout that sits back and lets the world go by and or only takes on POR's as required by advancement have no business being Eagle scouts. This is how one ends up with "eagle" scouts that contribute zilch to society after they get their medal and check mark on their college application and employment resumes. It's a sad day when one sees more real leadership coming out of a TF scout than some of the Life scouts out there. Stosh

Every action has it's motive..... Stosh

You can be a homosexual "youth" member in Venturing between 18 & 21, but during that time you can't be a Boy Scout leader. Someone's going to question that unless the age of youth drops down to legal 18. Just one of those hypocritical issues that slips in and I'm suspicious that this might be the real reason behind the age shuffling in the Venturing program. Now one registeres as an adult but is somehow magically honored by being an participant. There is no other real reason for the switch. They have been doing it as a double standard for 15 years, so why the sudden change? Stosh

The only thing coming out of Illinois of any value in this area is cow pies........ Stosh

Seriously??? With all the crime, graft and corruption coming out of Chicago, one would think the legislators would be worried more about something than what the state pie is. Stosh

There's an elephant in the room, when is this thread going to address that? Stosh

I sure hope that whatever you chose, I sure hope you realize how lucky you are to have a Mrs. that backing you up like that. Stosh

Sorry you feel that way. Please accept my apology. All I can say is I speak from experience of sitting on both sides of the table. I wish only the best for your daughter. Stosh

Right now I've just started a new troop in a new area of town that hasn't had a scout troop for a few years. No longevity here so no guff. My last SM gig I was asked to leave after 5 years because I expected too much leadership from the boys. Before that I was an ASM just having fun hanging around and putting up with an adult-led, troop-method troop. I used to be a minister many moons ago, but left because the politics just got to be more hassle than it was worth. At that point I just picked the one part of ministry I loved the best and that was working with the kids. Scouting isn't the only youth group I have been involved with, I'm still active in a couple of congregations in the area. All in all, I have been working with various youth organizations and groups for 45 years now. Started back when I was in college. How do I keep my ideas fresh? Stick with the basics, expect great things from the kids, believe in what you are doing and have a real love for the kids. Kids will keep you young if you let them. (Caution: this only works with other peoples' kids, you're own kids will take years off you faster than you can ever imagine.) Stosh