Stosh

In Wisconsin we like our brats boiled in onions and beer, then grilled and then resoaked in the beer and onions until served on a brat bun with sauerkraut and condiments. They then to be very polite if done up this way. Stosh BTW, the recipe is the one used by all vendors at Lambeau Field in Green Bay.

So, if nice kids are in sports and not scouting, what does that say about the kids that are in both and are nice.... or not nice. There's a lot of validity to the arrogance of the star athletics too. Just depends on the people involved. I have seen bullying and hazing going on in scouting as well as sport programs. The only youth activities where that is not experienced has been with the church youth groups. Now it's not dependent on which youth are worse, it's dependent more on how the adults are dealing with it. Turning a blind eye is not a youth problem as much as it is an adult problem. I don't know SFF's situation, but as an Eagle Scout maybe if he were to invest as much in Scouting as he is in athletics maybe the numbers would even out a bit. I find that kids tend to learn bullying and hazing from their peers, but courtesy and respect is learned from the adults that are in many cases just standing around watching. As an adult I spend my time teaching my youth maturity, citizenship, courage to meet the challenges of adulthood. And that is far more difficult than teaching them to win at a particular game. I have in 45 years never raised my voice against a kid that screwed something up along the way. Can most coaches brag the same? Stosh

Good points, but remember everyone is fallible. It doesn't make any difference if that person is a sport coach or a Scoutmaster. A lot has to do with the combination of coaches, teachers, scouters and most importantly of all parents. I think there might be a modicum of truth to the idea that people today don't spend as much time training courtesy, kindness, etc. as they have in the past. So where does that leave us in Scouting? Maybe it's up to us to do the heavy lifting. I make it a major emphasis in my troop to err on the side of too courteous and at time my boys when they make a mistake apologize TOO MUCH. It kinda drives me crazy. I keep having to tell them we are here to learn and make mistakes and it's part of the process. I know you're sorry, but maybe tell me just once. I even have boys who apologize for apologizing too much. I have noticed that there tends to be an increasing level of narcissism among today's youth, so I emphasize the duty to others, helping others at all times, etc. kind of lessons in the troop.Tenderfoot Advancement #9. The Buddy System - taking care of someone other than just yourself. It's a lot more than just leaving camp and swimming in pairs. Stosh

Every year I do whitewater canoeing on a shallow but fast river. I always take block and tackle throw cushion and rope for emergency rescue along with wearing a sheath knife and belt ax. Had CNYScouter done the lock through with his scouts, I would recommend the knife and axe because of the water changes and existence of ropes that can tangle. I do insist that an experienced canoeist take the rear seat and any newbies take the front. The canoe needs the weight in the front to hold the front down. That way the boy can actually be helpful. Been doing this for 25+ years, but I always take very experienced adults along as well. Newbie parents sit in the front of the canoe.... CNYScouter does not have the luxury of experience on his side, but he seems to have thought it through and has a great opportunity for this boys to "get their feet wet" with watercraft. Stosh

General consent is issued for all scout activities signed by the parents when the fill out the application. It covers all scouting approved activities. If one is canoeing and the leadership has not taken Safety Afloat, then it is not an approved activity regardless of what the parents sign later on. If one has their non-swimmer son out in a canoe and proper protocol is not followed, then negligence comes into play regardless of whether or not the parents gave permission. Someone opens up the rifle range? Is the range director BSA approved? If not, negligence comes into play. Climbing rocks? BSA approved personnel on site leading the activity? If not... As one can see, permission is issued with the application form for any and all scouting activities. There is no permission slip or legal waiver that is going to hold up in court when it comes to negligence. So, Mr. Smith, you took little Johnny on a scout campout activity. His parents dropped him off and you went out in the woods for the whole weekend and nothing happened and little Johnny had a great time. But it has come to the awareness of the court that you did so without written parental permission, other than what was already done when they filled out their son's application to be involved in scouting activities. Is that correct, Mr. Smith, remember you are under oath...... Yeah, right. After 45 years of working with youth, never had that one come up... Stosh

I have been told by my lawyer friends the permission slips are pretty much not worth the paper they are written on. If someone gives permission to go on a trip and the parents' lawyer says you were negligent, what good is the permission slip? You didn't kidnap the kid, you had permission to take him along, but generally that's not what one is suing about. Even if there is waiver language in the document, negligence can still be a factor the lawyers zoom in on. Heck, a legal guardian and/or parent can be held accountable for negligence and they don't carry around permission slips or waivers. Stosh

It sounded like CNYScouter did his homework on this trip. Canal (calm water, narrow route, can''t get lost), slight current due to lock leakage, He avoided fast current, open lake winds, and a number of other "problems" for first timers. While I haven't done an canal canoeing, it sounded like a safe enough area that if they did tip over, the swim to shore would be no problem. Open lake with off shore wind could make for quite a swim on a tip. The only reason I recommended a portage rather than taking the locks is that there are ropes and water level changes that can easily capsize the canoes inside the lock if someone tied off or hung on too long, got tangled, etc. It's not just the scouts doing stupid things either, someone with a 14' runabout having trouble next to a 8' kayak could spell a lot of problems with everyone being too close in a lock. Experienced boaters in a lock is not a problem, newbie might be. Personally, I find that portaging is no big deal and other than a twisted ankle, it's within the realm of newbies to handle. Stosh

And some die horribly, too. I don't know what your point is trying to make, other than I have had a number of scouts do some really nice things for their project only to be disappointed down the road. It's unfortunate that some get some great stories in the news while others who do nice projects only get a pat on the back only to find out no one really cares in the long run. The Mrs. wanted to go back and replant all the Girl Scout trees to give them a chance to grow, but the government entity that owned the land said no. Disappointment all the way around, the gift that keeps on giving. If the boys are looking for legacy projects, they might wish to consider the reality of the situation as part of the project. SM's who pressure the boys to do legacy type projects are often quite abusive with the requirements of the project. We don't have to be building pyramids to show leadership. Stosh

Locks can be tricky, I canoe and kayak on a regular basis and have never gone through a lock. It is far easier and quicker to portage. It would be a good idea if someone who knew the basic strokes to come in and do a seminar on paddling, what happens when you dump, etc. but I wouldn't think it would need to be at the MB level, but it might cut down on the pin-ball effect of bouncing off one shore just to bounce off the other. It speeds up the trip, too. Stosh

Unless one does it like the Girl Scouts. They got a big PR media coverage on their tree planting efforts. After the fact the Mrs. and I went over and looked at the results. The first words out of the Mrs. mouth was, "They aren't going to make it." (She's a forester). They dug a hole for each tree, put a tree in it and when all was said and done, the tops of the trees just nearly cleared ground level. It was a shame and the first time the county mowed the law, they mowed off all the trees that were there because no one ever went back and watered them. County did the same for one of my boy's Eagle project. It was refurbishing a park that had been neglected. He cleaned it up and got it looking nice. The County never mowed it since and within one year it looked like no one ever did anything except it had a few less dead trees. I never have my boys try for any long term legacy projects, they tend to end up a disappointment in the long run. Stosh

I don't think the original posting gave out numbers or percentages of those signing up as relevant. What was asked was, are those who sign an application considered adult leaders and the answer is yes. They are registered scouters and the years of service need to be counted. It doesn't make any difference what role or position they are placed in. When I signed on to Boy Scouting many moons ago, I filled out the application and left the position code open. The COR put me in as ASM. There was nothing "automatic" about it. A code was entered. While it is nice to have every committee member assigned a responsibility, there is nothing on the application that states that the committee member is given any particular duty in that position. I do believe the application code for a committee treasurer is MC, but the application code for the advancement chairperson is MC, and the application code for the FOS chairperson is MC... but the application code for just a plain old committee person is just MC. A registered adult has a position code indicating their leadership position, it has nothing to do with what the CC assigns to the MC's after that. Stosh

One advantage of expanding and then breaking off a new pack would be the leaders of the "new" break off would get some experience on running a pack from working within the old. It's really difficult to start from scratch, but an expansion with leader development might give them a foot up. Stosh

One does not need to fill out an app to attend scouting activities. It is nice if they do so and when they do they are an adult leader and should take YPT for THEIR protection. Stosh

Have her bring cookies.... It always works for my boys. Stosh

I guess the orange for Tigers has been dropped. Qwazse - If the boy earned the religious knot that carries over too!!! That includes any other knots he might have. I had a boy cross over with the life saving knot along with his religious knot. Stosh

As has been mentioned, a lot of people no longer use the newspaper as much as they use the internet. One of the biggest PR pushes we did in one of my troops was to go out and pick up garbage alongside the roads in the area (like within 5 miles of where we met! Every year they went out and did this. It was done in UNIFORM so that everyone that drove by knew that the Boy Scouts were out there again cleaning up the roadside trash. It was kinda surprising how often during the rest of the year I heard about the Boy Scouts being the ones that cleaned up the neighborhood. Kinda surprising that it was never publicized, no media ever showed up to interview, and no one said a word. But the boys walking the ditches in uniform made an impact. My boys march in the Memorial Day Parade and stay for the cemetery ceremony. We were one of two troops to march the parade and the only troop to stay for the ceremony, but we were there in full uniform. I learned a long time ago that simply being someplace spoke louder than any thing. No need for any PR program blitz, flyers or handouts. Don't even have to say anything. Just be there. Stosh

Welcome to the forum! I shouldn't give out this advice to a newbie, BUT..... Sounds like fun. I'd go for it. If council gets bent out of shape, leave the uniforms at home and go anyway. Disclaimer: I get in trouble with my council all the time. After a while they quit asking "How's it going?" Stosh

Gotta keep it in mind that not all parents really know the difference between what is Cub and what is Scout when it comes to the uniform. Den number or patrol patch will need to go. The right sleeve should only have the US flag. If it has obviously Cub scout patches on the right pocket or anything related to Cub scouts on the right side of the shirt, they go too. The temporary patch on the pocket can stay for as long as the scout thinks it's cool. Left side of the shirt, the purple/white universal scouting emblem stays. The religious knot he might have earned stays, his service stars stay, the rank patch (Webelos) is gone and if they have all the ranks and arrow points, they all go as well, and the AOL below the pocket stays. Keep the service stars, just the last one and it keeps the backing. If your boy was in the whole Cub Scout program he will have a service star #1 with an orange backing,for his year as a Tiger, a service start #4 with a yellow backing for the 4 years in Cubbing. The years he puts into Scouting will be a third star with # of years and a green backing. Loops will change from Blue to muted Green. On the left sleeve, the Council Patch stays, replace the numerals with tan/green numbers, but as mentioned make sure the troop doesn't use a custom patch for that. Everything else on that sleeve goes. When your son gets his BSA Handbook, the inside front and back covers show what is needed for sleeves/pockets and the correct measurements to get them in the right spot on the shirt/sleeve. Stosh

And what does your Historian do now that the SM does all his work for him. Paper, pencil/pen, and a digital camera, a few pieces of 8 1/2" x 13" paper and you have a Historian, patch is extra. I'm thinking that the boy takes Photography MB and Journalism MB and he doesn't need a big budget to make it pay off for the local troop. Get the boys involved, after all THEY are the ones that seem to be invisible. What do they think they should be doing to show off Scouting. If they are embarrassed or don't want to be seen, then that's where one begins, not with some polished PR media blitz. Stosh

SPL vs PL deadlock? - Time out! If this was the problem in my troop we would not be discussing any camping requirement! We would be discussing a heavy dose lesson in Servant Leadership. The SPL is there to support and help the PL's be successful, not lock horns with them and argue. In my troop the final say-so in that situation would be decided by the PL who is responsible for the welfare of his patrol and is responsible for signing off on T-FC advancement. If the SPL and PL came to me for breaking a deadlock, they would do it only once and after getting a lesson in Leadership they would still have to work out the problem on their own. A lot of times we tell everyone to go talk to the PL and yet we don't follow through when they go over the PL's head. I had one boy say he had done a requirement and the PL hadn't marked it off in his book. I had him show me and I said it looked good to me. He then asked me to sign the book, but I said, No, he had to go back to his PL and show him again just like he showed me. Which he did and got it checked off by the PL who was unaware of my little conversation with the boy. Like I said, sometimes the PL's are a bit zealous and really stick to the requirements more so than even more so depending on their interpretation of the wording. Isn't that what we're doing here, now? Why wouldn't the PL's be dealing with the same dynamics? Stosh

When boys cross over into my troop, they generally come wearing their Webelos uniform. During orientation, the boys go over what goes and what stays. The necker belongs to the unit so he doesn't need to buy one and the book is his crossover gift. The boys still go with the red/white numerals with red loops, the new boy has red loops and bought a green/tan numeral. No one said a thing. He may notice some day and make the change. As picky as I am about the uniform, I still run a boy-led program. I get invited to do a full uniform inspection from time to time and I critique each boy and offer up suggestions as to what he might wish to consider to be more in line with the BSA standard. Within a few weeks things slowly change. Stosh

My wife is a forester by training, certified master gardener, hobby naturalist and excellent white water kayaker. She has gone along on a trip here and there where needed. She does the 10 plants/animals, etc. kinds of things and backs me up on water events. She isn't a parent of any of the boys, She is not registered, but she always brings cookies. I let her sleep in my tent as long as she behaves. Haven't had any complaints. Stosh

One of my former troops had the historian submit a press release every time something important happened. Eagle COH, Philmont trip, Sea Base, some bit service project i.e. scouting for food., etc. If the paper published it, fine if not it was no big deal. In the small town paper it was surprising how many of those articles made print and are still in the digital archives of the newspaper so one can link them into emails, etc. Of course one needs an active and responsible historian to pull it off. Stosh

Welcome Slapper! Sounds like the boys do the car plop and camp style of camping. In that case, any cot will do. Try and get one that doesn't do damage to the floors of the tent or toss down a rug under the legs to minimize the wear and tear. The only time I use a cot is summer camp where one is provided, and winter cabin camp where one is provided. Blowup mattresses are easier to pack around than a cot as well, but one has to blow them up which isn't the end of the world. There is one exception where I do use a cot. I have an old military pup tent with no floor. I have a cot that is only 2-3" tall so when it rains I can let the water just run through and I stay dry. Stosh

What's the adults have to do with this? My PL's mark off the advancement for T-FC. They decide and they tend to be a bit more harsh than I would be. Trust your boys, if they know they are getting away with murder, it only cheapens their experience in Scouting. There have been the rare occasion where a scout has gone over the PL's head on this and appealed to the SM. I became the "judge" and allowed the boys to express their positions. I then read the requirement and left. They always seem to come to some acceptable consensus on their own. Just keep the conversation going. Stosh