Stosh

As has been proven time and time again, any issue, including the Law and Oath can be taken into the realm of an inquisition where no answer is going to satisfy the inquisitor. Once people begin to understand the BOR as a pass/fail situation, it opens the door for such abuse. If all the requirements are met, including a sign-off on Scout Spirit, how can a BOR deny rank? Oh, yes, it can, it just makes up it's own rules along the way. There's nothing wrong with talking about any and all of the Oath/Law in a BOR. How's it going? What do you need to improve? Having a bit of trouble with cheerfulness? Reverence? Obedience? Are you making plans/changes to make improvements in those areas? Where do you see yourself in 5 years, 10 years? But there's nothing there that says a BOR passes judgement on any of that. The rank has been earned, BOR's responsibility to help the scout look forward into the next step of his career, not derail it on the spot. Only controlling adults would ever consider doing that. But that's an issue with the adults, not the Scout.

I have adhered to the LNT which goes beyond just cleaning up after yourself and not making a permanent impact on things. Loud colors, loud noises, unsavory smells, etc. all go along with the LNT principle. No one wants to go out into the wilderness to enjoy the simplicity of nature and have Ringling Brother Barnam and Bailey show up next door. If one is worried about the right yellow tent being able to be seen in an emergency, a yellow survival blanket or poncho works just as well. As a matter of fact, smoke and fire do a pretty good job too. There are other alternatives besides a perpetual circus atmosphere when there isn't an emergency.

Fantastic! I am a reverent person, but now I get to pick one of the other 11 to ignore. I'm thinking obedient would be a good one to pass on and still get my A. I like the way you think Mozart. I'm all in favor of not passing any atheist at an EBOR and let the scout appeal to National. Let them decide what holds water and what doesn't.

BSA hasn't always been avoiding military issues. The Tom Slade series inroduces a forgotten gem of American fiction, the Bridgboro Boy Scout novels by Percy Keese Fitzhugh. Introduced in 1915 when the Boy Scout movement was new, the books glow with the freshness of the movement and the optimism of an age when everything seemed possible. In addition to Tom Slade, the series and introduces a number of beloved characters, including Pee-wee Harris, Roy Blakeley, and Westy Martin, each of whom later goes on to have his own series of books. Keese's main characters are based on real people, giving the books an authenticity unusual in juvenile fiction (or any fiction). The self-reliant boys are reminiscent of the heroes in Robert A. Heinlein's early fiction (not surprising because both authors' work was serialized in "Boys Life"). Tom Slade, Boy Scout, 1915. Tom Slade at Temple Camp, 1917 Tom Slade on the River, 1917. Tom Slade with the Colors, 1918. Tom Slade on a Transport, 1918. Tom Slade with the Boys over There, 1918. Tom Slade, Motorcycle Dispatch Bearer, 1918. Tom Slade with the Flying Corps, 1919. Tom Slade at Black Lake, 1921. Tom Slade on Mystery Trail, 1921. Tom Slade's Double Dare, 1922. Tom Slade on Overlook Mountain, 1923. Tom Slade Picks a Winner, 1924. Tom Slade at Bear Mountain, 1925. Tom Slade, Forest Ranger, 1926. Tom Slade in the North Woods, 1927. Tom Slade at Shadow Isle, 1928. Tom Slade in the Haunted Cavern, 1929. The Parachute Jumper, 1930. This is one of several series commissioned by the Boy Scouts of America.

Never said traditions couldn't have a price tag on them once they get to court. Burn down a barn vs. burn down a church? Probably find out which tradition creates the biggest stir. Pedophile old man down the street vs. pedophile pastor of the local church.... I'll have to think about that one for a while. Really a close call. Burn down a building.... pedophile person.... Put a coat of religious tradition on it and voila, one has a whole new ballgame.

Not necessarily off thread with the male only. LB-P established Boy Scouts, others formed Girl Guides. So co-ed is a recent alteration from the original intent. It's always interesting how many contortions and gyrations people go through to justify unnecessary changes. If people don't like the program, find one that better suits your needs but simply changing it to one's own agenda only opens the door for everyone to demand changes as well. To think today's Boy Scouting in any country is reflective of the original program is taking a rather naive view of the program. So, in order to stick with the OP of the thread. NO, Eagle MB's of any sort are unnecessary. The original program had as it's highest rank, First Class. Everything else is added fluff to create the appearance of Ooooh, Aaaaaah to have people think Eagle scouts are somehow "special, different, etc." than the run of the mlll First Class Scout. Over the years I have seen some excellent First Class scouts and seen some pretty mediocre Eagle Scouts. The MB's didn't make one iota bit of difference. The factors leading up to that were not part of the MB program.

Dealing with children is far more traumatizing than with adults. After 15 years of EMT work I can still remember every child I had to take care of. After 15 years of ministry, I can still remember every child I had to do a funeral for.

It depends more on the maturity of the boys than it does their chronological age. My boys' biggest struggle is keeping the adults from interfering in their boy-led operations. Well-meaning interference by adults do not make a good boy-led program, it makes a good adult-led program. The boys are not blind, they see what's going on, and growth is hindered by helicopter adults feeling it is foremost on their agenda to see that the boys do it correctly, i.e. their way. Sometimes the necessity of the situation dictates performance. Right now I have a PL (only one patrol so he also steps in and is SPL when the need arises) that is 12 years old working on setting up summer camp for his patrol members. While he's not under any obligation to handle a larger group, it is interesting to note that he's not the oldest boy in the patrol, but he is by far the most mature. He is at an advantage over others in his patrol because this is the second time around he's done this. He did it for the first time last year when he was 11. Boys know more than one assumes. They know that if they sit on their hands long enough some adult will lose patience and step in and take over. It's just a matter of time and they know it. Why get all worked up about doing something when all one has to do is sit back and be a wee bit more patient than the most impatient of all the adults in the room. When they do it isn't mentoring they are doing, it's correcting inappropriate behavior towards the youth, something they as adults/parents have been doing since day one and will continue to do that until their child moves out of the house at age 45, because mom and dad sold the house and retired to Florida. Self-fulfilling prophesy of mentoring and directing only reinforces the assumption that they can't figure it out on their own and have to be told. That's the model of the school system, and that is not a boy (youth) led situation. If one lets the boys lead, they will. If one feels they need direction to get them going, the only thing they will learn is how to follow, not lead.

Doesn't say anywhere in the Oath and Law that the scout has to be male either...... If one wishes to define the program. Start out with Lord Baden-Powell, his military background, and the definition of a scout. At least you'll have a handle on the initial intent of the goal he was working towards. Most of what we have today is a variance of that original ideal.

The Big G, little g issue is tradition only. Has nothing to do with the language. When I say the word God/god, no one knows whether my mind capitalizes it or not. The original basis for the Christian/Jewish/Islamic tradition never intends to actual give a proper name (Big G) to their supreme being. They kinda had problems at first because they didn't know what to call him. So they came up with "the god of our fathers" and stuff like that. At least Moses had the gumption to actually ask him his name and he responded, "I am who I am." Kind of a nice way to saying, it's none of your business and there's a long theological basis for that. Most people today don't understand the dynamic correctly, at least its not defined correctly in their traditions.

While there are always exceptions to every rule, I find that young adults, especially single really aren't interested in volunteering for anything. I got into it and enjoyed it, but I started because of psychology classes at the university required volunteering for challenging programs. All the wrong reasons, but as time went on, it became part of who I have become. Adults don't volunteer because they want to, they volunteer because their children want to be part of the program.

Thus the reason they are not well known.

n. 1. God a. A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions. b. The force, effect, or a manifestation or aspect of this being. 2. A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality. 3. An image of a supernatural being; an idol. 4. One that is worshiped, idealized, or followed: Money was their god. [Middle English, from Old English; see gheu(ə)- in the Appendix of Indo-European roots.] The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition copyright ©2014 by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. All rights reserved. I find it difficult to separate a word from its meaning and continue to make sense out of it. I am a pilot. Okay is that a pilot of an airplane or a pilot of a river boat? Without definition or context the word is useless. Using God out of context of its definition is just as useless. Every time a person uses a word, the listener's mental reaction is to put it into definition and context so as to understand. Not everyone jumps to the same conclusions and/or definitions. When that happens all we have left to contend with is the confusion that results.

By the way, I don't get all that worked up about the different traditions, because after all that's all they are: different traditions.

It means that the word God and Supreme Being are not the same, even though the universal definition of Supreme Being is God. Unlike some religious traditions the three main traditions do not have a name for God, (Christian, Judaism, and Islam). Some like the pantheons of Greece, Rome and the Scandinavian countries actually had names for their gods) Just different traditions. The traditions need to be consistently pointed out to make sure everyone's religious traditions remain different. After all these are traditions, it's the way we have always done things and just because we can't remember what the traditions is meant to do is totally irrelevant.

Moose, You are partially correct i that more well defined religious traditions seem to get preference by the rank and file Scouters. But that is not what BSA is working towards and that's the fault of the Scouters, not the BSA. "Organized Religion" (certain code of religious traditions) is not the ultimate goal of one's faith life. I know for certain that every one who calls themselves a certain religion does not support the traditions of that organization 100%. I think when it comes to scouting people feel they need to associate with some of the more well known traditional forms. So, who's left holding the bag with this whole process? Scouters! and who's the least qualified to do that? Scouters! Do we see a train wreck coming down the tracks?

I'm thinking that BSA leaves the issue vague and undefined because of the diversity of religious traditions. Defining God/god is a thinking/thought process, whereas faith is a non-logical issue of the "heart". Kinda hard to mix the two with any kind of continuity. What we therefore see in this world is only the thinking/though processes acted out in tradition which are only a reflection of what one actually believes. Everyone has a belief system, out of that there are those who have religious traditions they adhere to and others who refuse to have traditions.

Those officers who take care of their men are not only well liked, but the men prefer to follow them knowing that they all have a job to do. The best leaders are also the best followers. Officers who are not taking care of their men have men who will follow only to keep out of trouble with the system. They follow out of fear, not trust and admiration.

I don't know if this will draw the ire of the moderators or not, but this definitely has to go under the Forbidden Fruits section of this forum.

I just can't imagine the importance of what kids are up to today. Yes, computer skills for a few, mostly entertainment gaming by oneself or online with another person socially isolated from the world. I always looked forward to summer because I could be with my buddies for a change. Every weekend my family went camping from first thaw through first snowfall. Finally when school was out, my parents would go to work and that left weekdays for fun. Biking, hiking, swimming, fishing, sports, you name it, we got into it. I knew every square inch of back country within 5 miles of town. I knew all the fishing holes that produce the best fish and parks and rec had swim lessons which I took from blowing bubbles in the shallow end of the pool to life-saving certification. Sure we did our stint in front of the TV, but not too close, either you were going to go blind or sterile, can't remember which. But we also had a monopoly game going at all times, most of the guys played chess, someone had sand lot ball going somewhere in the neighborhood. That was besides the Little League going on too. Parks and rec actually had crafts that one could make lanyards having been instructed in large and small, square and round braiding. Winter? Pot belly stoves with the smell of burning wool as the kids cooked their wet mittens. Ice skating with no hockey taking up all the ice. The sledding hill and toboggan run were always busy. As I look back over the years, with the exception of TV, NOTHING HAD A BATTERY AND NOTHING NEEDED TO BE PLUGGED IN. And yes, the light bulb had been invented many years prior to that and every home had electricity, running water and furnace. Our house had converted over to oil from coal a few years before I was born. I do remember going down into the basement at the grocery store and shovel coal over to the auger when the bin got low. That was the late '60's. (I take that back, when I was very young, I remember many outhouses still in use and because my grandpa was the owner of the hardware store, we did have indoor plumbing. The main bathroom upstairs did not have hot water in the tub. We had to fill a big canning kettle with hot water and dump into the tub to get a hot bath. I was in college before I saw my first flushy in a campground and that was at a Canadian provincial park. Outdoor skills? It wasn't that we were taught, it was we didn't have an option. Maybe it wasn't as "interesting" as all the flash and excitement of computer games, but those skills still come in handy yet today. Built a green house today with raised beds for growing a garden. Got a book on year-round gardening that can be done as far north as southern Canada. Neighbor saw the activity and come over to chat, offered to let me borrow his rototiller. Said I didn't need one, I do organic, no-till farming and what dirt I do need "turned over" I do with a shovel, easier to handle and has less moving parts. Been turning over gardens as a part time job back before I was in Scouts.... A Scout is Thrifty. Didn't have a mom and dad who could afford to buy me scout equipment, so I had to earn my own money to be involved in scouting. Full uniform for both Cub and Boy Scouts. Not bad for a non-Eagle scout that earned one MB (Stamp Collecting) which is the one thing I no longer am involved with. I held life-saving certificate, but never got the swimming or life-saving MB. My troop really was an embarrassment. Scouting was nowhere near the high point of my outdoor adventures when I was a kid.

Doesn't have to. I can do a project all by myself and lead no one. I can dictate work that needs to be done to another, and they do the work, they don't have to like me, but they need to do the work They aren't following me, they are following directions. I'm saying it takes work, time, and trust to develop leadership. That can't be done in a single project. A boy working on his Eagle project should have developed his leadership long before he got his Eagle packet. The project only demonstrates what leadership he possesses at that point in time. 1) Are the boys following because they think the scout is popular and it would be good to be in his clique? 2) Are the boys following because the scout is really nice and they would do anything for him? 3) Are the boys doing it because they were told they had to? 4) Are the boys doing it so they get service project hours for their advancement? 5) Are the boys doing it so that others in the troop will feel obligated to help with their Eagle project? #2 seems to be the only one that really demonstrates leadership The rest are management and politics. The scout that creates a really polished, professional website for a non-profit organization is not demonstrating leadership, just project management. As a measuring rod for this process, are there people following and why are they following... they want to or they have to. If you have people following because they want to, then you have leadership.

I have been camping since I was 4 years old, I'm not 64. Unfortunately I can say I knew more about camping/outdoor skills when I STARTED scouts than a lot of Eagle Scouts know. I took over a troop and there were two boys Life working on Eagle. I asked one of them to start a fire so the Grubmaster could start some breakfast charcoal. (I hadn't worked the troop into full Boy Led yet. Needless to say, the boy couldn't get a fire started. The Grubmaster couldn't cook either. and these were all scouts 14+ years old. It was really kinda sad. My wife knows a lot of woods skills and I asked her if she was ever a Girl Scout. She said yes, a Daisy for one year. I then asked her how she knew so much about outdoor skills. 1) She's a forester by training, 2) home schooled her kids, 3) camped at every opportunity, and hates her office job. Over the years I have tented, trailered, and motorhomed in the woods. Her kids bought her a new tent for Christmas last year. Kayak the year before..... If kids today were to learn 10% of what my generation simply picked up along the way of life, our Paper Eagle designation would disappear.

I remember back in high school when we had to make a number of phone calls to notify everyone of something. No broadcast texts or emails, just everyone's phone number one at a time. After a while I learned to dial with a pencil, it was easier on the fingers.

RichardB As the quote indicates the Scout is to administer his own meds. If a Scouter takes the responsibility to help it is more along the lines of reminding him, not medicating him. Even this is frowned upon probably for legal liability reasons. Giving an injection whether it is for allergic medication or diabetic medication. BSA frowns on it for very valid reasons. Even nurses in hospitals can give injections only under direct doctor's orders. And an untrained Scouter is going to do this with a controlled medication? Good luck with that.

Sentinel947, I think you have it correct. There's nothing wrong with the 12th Law, The Oath and any open discussion around those topics within BSA. How one lives out that is entirely up to the scout, but as a SM or BOR member there's nothing wrong with talking about how the boy does that. And here's the rub, talking about it and imposing one's religion on another is offensive. SM: Have you found Jesus? Scout: Gee, I didn't know he was lost, SM: No, I mean to you believe in the name of God? Scout: Is that with a capital G or a small G? SM: No, I mean "G-O-D". Scout: Oh, the word we use because we really don't know his name? In that case, no, I don't believe the word God is is name. SM: Okay, then, How's being Kind or Thrifty working out for you?