Stosh

Yep, that explanation satisfies the double-standard of homosexuality in the BSA program now that changes have been unilaterally made to satisfy the financial and political dynamics of the program. Yep, we'll give you your Eagle so you can put that on your resume, but you'll never be able to be an adult leader in the program. Maybe my reality trumps your idealism.

I believe a SM signature is required on an Eagle project when he in fact has no need to participate in it at all, too. The SM is invited to sit in on the EBOR as an observer. The message being conveyed is this project is too important to have the troop approve it, evaluate it, and review it. All you have to do is sign the paperwork. I believe there's a place for SM signature on the advancement sheet, even though he doesn't have to participate in the process either. SM's signatures are nothing more than an opportunity to let the SM know what's going on. So the SM signature on a MB blue card is for notification purposes only. As a SM I'm seriously convinced that $2 and my signature will get you a cup of coffee just about anywhere in town regardless of what the BSA paperwork has to say.

I've always viewed the MB program as independent of the unit. The counselors are independently registered. They aren't boy-led, It's not designed for the patrol method, The counselors can serve any boy in the council if they wish.... How people could conclude the MB program as part of a troop program has always struck me as strange.

One always has to be aware of the creative minds of boys of this age..... and also some of the adults that never grew up.

I have a $10 cheapie that I got at Walmart. They tend to bend up pretty easily, but then I realize that and work hard at not beating them to death when I cook. I try and keep my seal the best I can, and for the most part it works nicely. But like everyone knows, once they leak they (envision a punctured foil dinner) they burn the food. That's because we tend to toss foil dinners and such right into the coals of the fire. One doesn't do that with a DO, but they think nothing of doing it with a foil dinner. This is why I don't do foil dinners, I don't really like eating burnt food. When I see a whiff of smoke coming from the mess kit, I just back off on the heat. A little steam coming off is okay, it happens whenever one cooks food. Just don't have the heat too hot and the moisture needed for cooking won't disappear and burn the food. 3 briquettes on the bottom, 4 on top is all one needs for a medium "oven". That's a far cry from a bed of coals that they use for foil dinners. Patience is a virtue and an art-form all at the same time. This is camp fire cooking with a mess kit, not a microwave oven. Just remember not to get the mess kit with the little plastic bead on the lid of the boiler. The old aluminum cups make excellent muffin tins. Here's the trick. take the cover of the boiler and put in the bottom of the fry pan top down. This allows the cup (tin) to be up off the bottom of the DO. Batter in the cup on top of the inverted lid. Put plate on, lock with handle, put on 3 briquettes a put 4 on top. This will give you pretty close to 350 degrees. I would trade out briquettes ever 30 minutes, 15 minutes for wood equivalent because of the cool down speed of aluminum. The briquettes will decrease in heat and cast iron holds the heat longer than aluminum. After one plays with it for a while, an understanding of this will become clear. Most modern mess kits come with a useless plastic cup. Take a tuna, bamboo shoots, water chestnuts can and toss that in the mess kit instead of the stupid plastic cup. And when the pan/plate doesn't seal anymore, use aluminum foil to put in the seam to plug leaks, or if the mess kit is really bent up, just wrap the whole thing in aluminum foil.

In terms of semantics, one can also see the flaw in the inappropriate use of certain terms. BSA thinks the SM is the unit leader. If certain words are synonymous with each other the SM could also be the unit manager. But somehow that doesn't bode well. If the boys are to lead the troop, does that mean they just manage or is there more to it than just that. Adviser? Well Venturing snagged that one, so we can't duplicate because it would cause confusion like Venturing and Venture Scouts. If words convey ideas, just what is it that BSA is trying to say so we know what's going on. Sometimes I wonder how much of the stuff coming out of national is nothing more than political lip-service.

NJCubScouter, I wish I could share in your optimism, but I have found out over the years that any time one stirs the pot, what they are really doing is testing the waters to see if there's anything that's going to get stirred up enough to define the action as a really bad idea. If nothing comes of it, the change is made and they have dodged the bullet. If not, the can always throw up their hands and say it was just a test. Under these circumstances it is always better to speak up and make oneself heard rather than sit back and be an assumed tacit approver.

I so totally agree with that statement. But I also emphasize adult association is not the same as adult-led. This method is abused as much as the patrol method... well they all take their hit at one time or another. If the methods were emphasized as much as the Oath and Law, I'm thinking a lot of our problems would simply go away.

My cute little aluminum DO is my mess kit. I do a lot of biscuits and beads, pot pies, etc. in it works great. Most troops don't teach mess kit cooking anymore, but I do it all the time. There is a middle ground between patrol cooking and utensil-less cooking. I have never seen any one demonstrate mess kit cooking. And yes, cornbread in a mess kit is fantastic. Not quite as good a blueberry muffins, but close.

So, we're in agreement then? Both hot dogs and marshmallows should be banned at all scout activities? Some people have way too much free time to come up with this kind of crap.

My parents went through a lot of Club Aluminum since the early 1950's. Usually it was the handles that burned off. The only camping CA that survived were the ones Mom used on the stove in the trailer. The campfire cookware was mostly cast iron, except for the large griddles which were aluminum and blacker than the ace-of-spades on the bottom. I still have and use both of them. Abused? Most definitely! My aluminum DO looks just like my cast iron DO's except the little handle on the lid looks different. They are all black on the outside. I don't do the soap thing and I don't care what the outside looks like. If it doesn't come off in the wash, it's not coming off on my clothing.. If it does, I'll just wash my clothes.

I'm 64 years old, I've had enough indoor schooling.... Heck, I had enough of school when I was in the 7th grade. I went to school because I had to, not because I wanted to. On the other hand, I've never needed an excuse to head out into the woods. I really don't need to know all about the bullet trajectory physics when it comes to stalking and downing a deer from 20' away. I don't need to know if I have a proper line poundage when I horse a 8# northern into the boat on my ultra-light fishing gear. It doesn't make one bit of difference if the tent is canvas or nylon when I'm sound asleep. All I know is that the Dutchman's Breeches and Blood Root are in full bloom, and the wild strawberry patch is looking good for the new season. I have a ton of other flowers blooming, but those are the one's I've planted. They are just for show. The real flowers are those that come free when you talk in the woods.

I'm not too worried. I have been part of traditional BSA for 50+ years. If they drop the program, it'll be a good excuse to do more outdoor stuff with my grandchildren.

Why would one need the Oath and Laws for a program of science and education? I didn't need to promise anything when I went to school. Just show up, learn, and get my diplomas..... LFL and STEM are learning programs, not development programs.

I don't do MB's anymore. I have found that: 1) doing them as a troop or patrol is a waste of time. It is just an excuse to have adult led meetings . 2) more often than not parents set up the MB's as if the boy really isn't all that interested in the first place. 3) I have had more scouts some for one session and never come back than I have boys that finished the MB. 4) I have more important things to do than waste my time.

One does need to keep up those scouting skills so that Grandpa won't be rusty when he gets to Tigers... Of course you could be blessed with granddaughters and they like to be outdoors too. I have three of them. Just as much fun as grandsons. Welcome back, your comments are still needed here on this forum.

Dropping the patrol method is tantamount to tossing in the towel and going 100% adult-led and removal of leadership development as part of the program. The last step to making BSA an adult-led, boy-managed, troop-program. If this be the case, this will turn BSA into just another youth program that will need to compete along with all the rest.

Troop only means I'm interested in doing a MB for my son and his buddies. Otherwise, I'm not interested.

Not having proficiency is an inconvenience. Not having knowledge is a serious problem. I have camped regularly for 60 years. I have done cooking for 45 years, 50 of them in and around campfires. Once I got lost out hunting but managed to find my way back to the car. Wilderness Survival MB? I have the knowledge to know what to do in such situations but I have zero experience.

I'm thinking that at the age of my scouts, I don't think there are many who are really atheists. Agnostics? Yes, but not really into the faith system that believes for sure there is no god. Of course then there are the agnostics that doubt the reality of god and then there are those who genuinely don't know. Knowing and relying on thought processes eliminates any concept of belief. The only person who does not have a faith system working for them are the agnostics. Theists believe there is a god. Atheists believe there is no god, and an agnostic has no faith awareness either way. Atheists like to think there is no god, but without proof, they need to rely on a faith/belief system to justify their lack of knowledge. Believers do the same thing in reverse.

It's interesting... the verbiage used by the BSA. "On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my Country." Okay, where's the statement of faith there? The scout states that his understanding of God is what other people have told him. That means doing a good turn daily falls into what those people are saying. Servant Leadership falls into that scope, respecting other peoples' religious beliefs is part of it, being morally straight is part as well. Where does the wording state the scout has to believe anything? As long as he is reverent towards other and does the beneficial, helping things wile being moral, he has it covered. Maybe all this is the BSA trying to get out ahead of any atheists meddling in the policies of the BSA, kinda like the pro-homosexual factions.

I believe the T-FC requirements are supposed to cover the basic outdoor skills necessary for being in the woods. Food, shelter, clothing, first aid, rope work and lashing, swimming, compass with map. I'm thinking if done the way it is supposed to be done, there would be no need for outdoor craft/skills necessary on the MB level for Eagle. Every First Class scout should be proficient in the woods. If not, then the pencil whipping has got to stop.

Every day one's freedoms erode, bit by bit. Kinda like the frog in cold water sitting on a hot stove. What was once a free society, it is now ruled by fear mongering of well intended tyrants that dictate from the governmental pulpits from local all the way up through national. The government has a contractual mandate in the Constitution. They have gone WAY, WAY beyond the scope and now infringe directly in the once almost sacred Bill of Rights. Well, that's pretty much gone now, too.