Stosh

Okay, now you've got my attention. Exactly how many times can I ding quarse each day?

I do it all the time. I held an Eagle back for 6 months because he was doing things quite contrary to what an Eagle candidate was supposed to do. I signed off on all his advancement and he thought it was a done deal until the Council came to me and asked for a recommendation stating he was an exemplary scout and deserved Eagle. Personally I couldn't do that and by requirements for Eagle rank my recommendation wasn't part of the process. Council stood firm and the boy rolled up his sleeve and proved to me that he could be an exemplary scout and deserved Eagle. He got his recommendation. In the SMC I ALWAYS ask, "What have you done in regards to your duty to God and Country?" "How about your helping people at all tmes?" etc. That second question always is followed up by, "Why haven't I seen it in the troop?" A lot of times they try to weasel out with, "I don't have a POR." followed by "You don't need a patch to help other people at all times." They figure it out. At the present time I have only one boy wearing a patch, the PL. Everyone else pulls their weight and the patches aren't needed because none of the boys are FC. In my last troop, the boys did their POR's without patches because they didn't want to bother with sewing them on. Everyone either has a job or finds a job because that second question in the SMC is always asked.

So let me get this straight. I'm the result of survivable chance mutation? Sounds like something Science Fiction is based on.

I have found that those who serve themselves only use the parts of the bible that suits their purpose. The Google search engine makes it very easy to pick and choose only those scriptures that give an advantage. - Barry I find that hard to believe..... "Then he (Judas) went away and hanged himself." - Matthew 27:5b (NIV) "Go and do likewise." - Luke 10:38b (NIV) "What you are about to do, do quickly," - John 13:27b (NIV) Here's the Bible verses I memorized for Confirmation. I like how they all flow together.

Different interpretations produce different traditions. The course set is all the same, the path taken is fraught by "interpretation." The problem lies in the fact that humankind has a free will to choose the interpretation they like, or chose not to take the path at all. Simply understanding the words is an even bigger problem. All translations have been done so with interpretation problems included. llfthnwtstmntwswrttnwthnpncttnrspcsrvwls Translation: All the New Testament was written with no punctuation or spaces or vowels. That means capitalization, punctuation, spaces and vowels are interpreted into the text. Of course, human agenda is all part of the process. This is how cults develop into new religions.

LOL! I am a hunter and by law I have to wear blaze orange during deer season. That's the only outdoor clothing I have that doesn't fit my back to nature comfort zone.

As long as they are metal and blaze orange they will work. Along these same lines, some people have said that when they tune the lightning rod like an antenna, they can pick up local weather radio and get a jump on the process.

One can play the "What-If" game all day long and it doesn't make sense in the long run. More people are killed by lightning than forest fires annually. Therefor all scouts in the woods need to wear blaze orange lightning rod beanies and keep one foot on the ground at all times. This is a year around problem. Even in blizzards, the National Weather Service has recorded lightning strikes in the area. I don't think the BSA scout shops carry these beanies, but for the safety of the boys, maybe they should. Just sayin'

People who seek self interpretation of Scripture is the main reason for all the different traditions. Once everyone's agenda is established, it's pretty difficult to get back to the original meanings. No religion is without it's many factions. Muslims fighting with Muslims, Jews fighting with Jews and Christian fighting with Christians is just as prevalent as fighting going on between the different religious traditions. Then there's me off in the corner, doing my own thing, convincing myself I have all the answers because I interpreted Scripture better than anyone else. Every new tradition is heresy to the old.

Nope, I don't think he missed your point, you missed his.

as it should be! I sure wish BSA would do a bit better with their terminology. Adult association and Adult leaders are two different issues for me. Adult Leaders are those that have adult-led programs. Boy-led programs have registered adults that associate with them. Basically it is unfortunate but many times it seems to fall to me to protect the boys from misguided adults that think the adult association bit is their excuse to run the show.

God doesn't change, only the traditions of men do. Interpretations are just one of the many traditions of men. As society changes, interpretations change, traditions change, but God is still the same as always. If one tradition says one thing and another tradition says something different, they both can't be right, and yet both might be wrong. Gotta love the arrogance of humanity.

Our troop "policy" is that the POR belongs to the scout. He defines what his role is based on his understanding of the definition of the role. You're PL what does that mean to you and what do you feel you should be doing to fulfill your expectations for advancement. If he defines the role, then there's no misunderstanding at the end. Either he did what he said he was going to do or he didn't. Then there are those who create POR activity for themselves along the way. They might fill in for a PL doing sports for a month even though they wear the APL patch. They're doing PL work, they should get credit for it. Maybe they take on the CA's duties for the campout because he couldn't make it. QM didn't show so he got the equipment ready for summer camp. etc. He documents all this and turns it in. Does he get advancement credit for all the work he's done? In my book yes. Extensive by-laws and policies are tor those who's politics have gotten in the way and the only next recourse for the troop is retaining lawyers. That's really sad. Ever notice the only ones who jump to the by-laws and policies are the adults????

Define slavery..... Then one can define morality towards it.

No problem with the disagreement. We just come from different approaches. It really bugs me when adults deal with individual scouts (besides YPT issues). If they do it often enough the boys will turn to the adults when they need help. As well meaning as that "adult association" method is meant to be, it is often contra-indicative of what I want to accomplish with the boys really running the show. I even have had to reign in SPL's over the years that interfere in the PL leadership of the patrols. So where's the adult association? I'm the SPL's #1 shadow. I seldom speak, but he knows I've got his back. The SPL is the #1 Shadow for all of his PL's. They all know the SPL has their back. Neither of us interact with their patrol members in any official leadership capacity, just the PL's lead, that's there job, we both respect that. Whenever there's an issue the SPL needs to address with a PL, I'm not that far away but I'm more of an observer than anything else. Neither the SPL or myself are ever out of the loop with what's going on in the patrols because we "visit" often with the PL's. When I say I pencil-whip MB cards it not any rebellion against the system, it's just that my boys have already take care of all the issues and have everything worked out already and the council wants my signature? Sure here it is. I trust my boys and they know it. I have had very few scouts over the years that have ever taken advantage of that trust. The vast majority really appreciate the opportunity to own their program. They work hard on not jeopardizing that. I can't remember the last time a scout (other than SPL or PL if he can't find me) ask questions of me. Most of my contact with the boys centers around, "How's this scouting stuff working out for you?" or "What did you think of your patrols dinner last night?" or "Are there boys in your patrol that are interested in doing any canoeing this summer? I have 3 kayaks and 2 canoes that need to get wet.", etc. Yes there is a ton of adult association, but not adult leadership, I leave that up to the boys. A certain amount of adult management behind the scenes is necessary, but the course taken by the troop is entirely in the hands of the boys and they've always done a really good job at it.

EXACTLY!!!! I'll even agree to your misspellings! I have had boys doing what your last paragraph describes all along. In a small troop we don't have enough work to fill up a POR except maybe the one PL and he's been working his butt off for a year but because he's not yet FC, none of it counts for advancement. So what, he's an excellent scout anyway! Take responsibility for oneself, it's the core principle of growing up and maturing into an adult!

I agree, I kinda alluded to it with the phrase "since earning FC/Star/Life" I think the levels of MB that I proposed could be overlapping so that the boy can reasonably finish the upper level MB classes on schedule with everything else. Same kinda for the service/activities, not so much the younger boy instructional work though. By the time he gets to the Eagle stage, he could have knocked out his 6 service projects before Life so he had more time to work on MB's for Eagle. I don't see a problem with that, but I don't want to see a boy doing all his young boy teaching while working on Star and then not doing anything more. I just kinda tossed it out there as general topics to be picked apart, not any precise conclusions drawn.

This is why I as SM can rely on my PL's doing a good job with advancement sign-off in a boy-led program.

Pargolf, At no time did I think you were disagreeing, and I understand your 10 days issue. You bring up some valid points, yet the ones that you regret are those that found it a walk-in-the-park attitude of intimidating parents that allowed 2 more Paper Eagles to get credit that Real Eagles worked hard to get. 20 or 10? I don't think the actual numbers matter. I came up with the formula of 5 days of summer camp, that leaves 15, that's 8 weekends....To me that's about a 1 year commitment to camping. Putting that into perspective. That means the boy does the minimum amount T-FC - 12 months, That puts him at 12 years old. Add 8 months for each of the ranks with 3 summer camps that puts him at 15 years of age. That's reasonable, shorter if the boy adds a few patrol campouts along the way. Heck, the boy can still get his Eagle before he needs his driver's license. The point I was going for is to make the scouting journey something serious, something that the boy needs a challenge to so that when that Eagle is presented, he knows it is something that he had to dig a bit to accomplish, not just show up with mom and dad and the lawyer and have it presented. Maybe we ought to have different levels of Eagles 1 Honorary Eagles (for the helicopter parents) 2 Paper Eagles 3 STEM Eagles 4 Real Eagles Personally I would like it to stay a truly Real Eagle program of some worth to the boys.

I don't do the bell thingy, but I do sing while in bear country. Bears have pretty good sense of hearing so it doesn't need to be at any heavy metal or operatic volumes. Just enough to let the bear know you're coming and not startle them. A couple of years back I was at Yellowstone and going from one area to the next along a lesser used path. I was with the Mrs. and was singing a little marching ditty as I walked along. Coming down the trail towards us was another couple who smiled and said, "I see you're having a pleasant day" I smiled and answered, "And if I sing enough to warn the bears that I'm coming, it'll stay that way." They chuckled and went on their way.... both began to sing, too. I understand the safety issue as well as the LNT issue. I don't wear bright colors but do carry them for emergency purposes only. I don't play loud music, but I do sing at certain times. There can be a reasonable balance between Safety and LNT.

Camping? The original Camping MB required 50 nights of camping, not the current 20. And if the boys take on other activities as they get older, it's up to them to also learn to manage their time. It's all part of the same maturation process. The value of the Eagle is not on how much you want it, it's in how hard are you willing to work for it. If all you have to do is show up, then the Eagle Rank is nothing more than just another participation ribbon.

The troop is boy-led, my opinion doesn't count. What their duties are is defined by their PL and if the PL is happy with the boys performance for his patrol then I'm good with it too. The troop level POR's are covered by the SPL. Same thing. If the SPL feels the boys have fulfilled the requirement then he signs off on it. I have found that the boys policing themselves tend to be a lot more stringent than dealing with me.

Why can't the boys just journal their POR activity and then present it when they want it signed off in their books. If their journal doesn't reflect 6 months of work, then it doesn't get signed off until it does. Historian: I went to one event, took pictures and gave them to the WebMaster. (Probably not going to get 6 months credit!) QM: I inventoried the trailer and Scout Room of all equipment. Provided patrols with appropriate equipment for Spring camporee and Summer Camp. Repaired 2 tents, Inspected all equipment now that my 6 months are up and submitted a report to the Committee Treasurer for new equipment due to need and replacement. (Yep, I'm thinking he's done enough) Chaplain's Aide: I opened every scout meeting with a brief devotion and prayer during flags. I closed each flag ceremony at the end of the meeting with a brief prayer. I provide a 15 minute non-denominational service for the troop at the Camporee. I worked with 2 scouts to get them going on their religious awards from their churches. (Yep, he's got it covered too.) Of course the SM doesn't have to wait until the end to SMC these boys with their journals to make sure they are on the right track. If a boy shows up week after week with a blank journal, this could pose a problem down the road. By the way, we don't have many boys in our troop so they have to double up a lot of times on the POR duties that need to get done. The boys can journal this as well. The POR requirement doesn't say the POR has to be the same for the whole 6 months and it doesn't say the 6 months is a contiguous time period. It's a total of 6 months worth of work that maybe took 7-8 months to accomplish.