Stosh

Snowed yesterday, Camporee is next weekend. Don't forget the mittens. As a kid I remember camping on Mother's Day weekend and having 8" of snow fall on Saturday night.

What we have to remember with today's kids, some parents want their kids to be farmers and others want them to be gardeners. Farmers get paid to produce food to feed the body and gardeners for fun grow flowers to feed the soul. My kids are gardeners, my wife's kids are farmers. We have three grandkids from my kids and none from hers. The only marriage of her kids has already ended in divorce. We all need to pick our poison and learn to live with it. It is during the formative years of scouting that these decisions get made.

Fifty years later I've pushed that up to 170#'s

Why is it so important to "establish your expectations" up front. These boys have been watching other scouts in these positions, They can read the book to find out what these POR's are all about. And if they don't have the skills, talent or inclination to do the job, why are they given the patch? Oh, yes, to get advancement credit. I forgot. I'm thinking these will be the people that go from the mail room delivery boy to Vice President of Operations overnight because it looks good on their resume.

How is "taking care of one's buddy" or "taking care of one's patrol members" promoted by embarrassing them? And then we wonder why no one is interested in listening to their leaders when those that they look to for leadership put them down? It takes a long time for boys to develop leadership trust that people will follow and one incident like this to bring it all down. Just ask yourself, "How does doing this make me a better person that people would want to lead them?"

I stand corrected, homo sapiens, not homo erectus. But in either case the point being no evolutionary dynamics have been found since they came on the scene. Which wither 70,000 or 140,000 years ago, it makes no difference, both numbers are purely speculation because there is no way of accurately measuring it and there is no missing link evidence to give rationale where homo sapiens even came from. As far as scientific evidence is concerned, there are a number of missing links for all kinds of species. It makes it kinda handy but if no one is looking closely it does make a great story. But of course in some people's minds and beliefs, this is all scientific proof. Of course if one is only speculating the mutations of species one could limit oneself to the philosophical treatise that both Socrates and Darwin have speculated, but neither are even offering any insight into the creation of anything, only the mutation of existing realities. This Gnostic/Greek philosophy has been around for quite some time and I don't see it going away anytime soon. Just another myth just like all the rest? We call it Humanism or Atheism because Socrates as well as Darwin aimed their philosophies as anti currently accepted religious beliefs of the times, The pantheon of Greece in the case of Socrates and Christianity in the case of Darwin who was in fact a trained theologian by education which makes him knowledgeable on classic philosophy as well as theology.

I try very hard to instill respect between adults and adults, boys and boys and adults and boys. I use their last names with title when I address them, I will salute the first time I see them an event, I don't use "signs up", etc. My boys don't sing unless they are doing it on their own. They lose something, that's there problem, work it out. You left something lying around, someone put it "away"? Better start asking around or it stays put away. Joe Bob's scenario where the boys are talking in the front of the room and the adults are making too much noise? One of the boys will go back to the adults and politely ask them to tone it down or take it outside the room because it is disruptive. And if you don't think that shuts down adults in a heart beat, nothing does better. Of course that doesn't mean that when the boys and I are joking around, the threat of doing push-ups or such does get bantered around. Never carried out, but the threat is still there. I had one boy at summer camp that had a "messy" tent (putting it mildly.) I told him the maid service would be stopping by and then turned to the other boys and loudly asked "Who wants to be the maid this morning?" Needless to say, the boy got busy and the mess got cleaned up rather quickly. When I'm more serious, I just do "the Look." that's enough to squelch any screwing around.

cool Thanks for posting this.

Must be either his Neaderthal or Hobbit evolutionary heritage.

I was thinking more along the lines of a progressive MB on the same subject, Kinda like Cooking A, B and C. That way the younger boys can be challenged by getting started going shallow and wide and the older boys can dive deep at a more interesting level. We already do what you're suggesting in a couple of instances. I'm thinking expanding deeper into the T-FC skills to the point where making menus and serving a small group hobo dinners, could be taken to the "OMG - You made that in a Dutch Oven?!!" level.

Ya beat me to it, I was gonna ask him about his shoulders. He did say, "At one point or another everybody does push-ups. "

So riddle me this, Joker.... Since the species homo erectus has appeared on the scene, how much has he evolved? He's basically the same genetic species he has always been. He has learned how to retain knowledge, but that's not an evolutionary thing, He has developed technology, but that's not an evolutionary thing. He still kills his brother out of jealousy, like he has been doing all along. He still wages useless wars, Still seeks power over this companions, Has an over-bearing ego, etc. Somewhere along the line one would think some mutation would have come along to make things a bit better, but I'm really not seeing it. Switch a cave to a house and one still sees the same-old, same-old. Surely Socrates' philosophy dispelling the pagonism of the Greeks, redressed into neo-classic revivalism called "evolution" can surely come up with a simple explanation.

My parents let me take as many extracurricular activities I wanted to. Then the left me alone to figure it out on my own what was too much or not.

It is not mandatory that the PL sit in on the BOR, only if the scout wishes him to. That's the same for the EBOR. If the Eagle candidate doesn't want the SM in the room. Fine, not a problem. We do find that the younger scouts like another scout they can trust (i.e. their PL) to help critique their BOR for future improvement. As SM I've never sat in on a BOR, but when invited do sit in on EBOR's.

As a kid one get's their growth spurts on both ends. Once you turn 40, the spurt is in the middle.

The mess hall at our local council camp snatches the hats off anyone entering wearing one. I normally wear a full uniform (including hat) all during summer camp except for showers, sleeping and swimming. Well, they took my hat and hung it up in the rafters and after the meal boys that want there hats back have to sing for them. Usually there are a lot of boys that forget so no one boy is singled out to sing. Well I went up there and asked for my hat back, they said I had to sing for it. I said, I came into the dining hall in full uniform, is it camp policy to encourage improper uniforms? He conceded no, that's not what is expected. I said someone should sing to get my hat back, and it's probably the gentleman at the door that took it should sing to get it back. He did after the entire mess hall cheered him on! I had another camp that called out my boys at flags for wearing their hats (Expedition style, not baseball style). It's really surprising how embarrassed the council staff can get when they have these kinda stupid rules that run counter to proper scouting. My SPL marched the troop back to camp one morning because when they got to flags they were told this was a non-uniform day at camp and we weren't dressed properly. Boys went back to camp and from then on did their own flag ceremony each morning and evening. It's our troop policy that if some camp or scout program expects one of our boys to sing, dance, or whatever, for some reason, the PL, SPL and SM all sing with him. Once one of the PL's screwed up and his entire patrol came up and sang with him. There are appropriate ways of dealing with this issue that produce esprit-de-corps instead of embarrassment. Always stay one step ahead when it comes to stupid games.

We run our BOR's like the council runs their EBOR's. if the SM sits and observes, the PL can do so if the scout wishes on any of his POR's.. If the scout is having difficulties that the Board is addressing, how can the PL help the scout if he doesn't know the concerns? Adults do not "out rank" my PL's, they are there to assist and the #1 support person for a patrol member scout is his PL. It is imperative that he know what's going on. Otherwise, if the GTA forbids the presence of the PL, then I would expect the BOR to produce a detailed report of their findings to the PL. If the troop is going to be boy-led, patrol-method, maybe the GTA be a bit more reflective of that dynamic. If the BOR's are all adult-led, adult-controlled, then quit complaining when the boys are not doing their "leadership" in the troop, have the adults do it as specified by the current BSA policy.

I prefer the stick method. I can't stand bad music.

I was 4' 11", 98# when I started high school. I was 6' 0", 135# when I finished my sophomore year. My mother used to go back to the stores and complain about the poor quality of jeans they were selling because they shrunk so much in just one or two washes.

The only time I "lie" to my boys, and they know it, is when the weather is really nice and I have "forgotten" the key to the CO's building and we have to sit and have our meeting on the lawn in front of the building. There's a flag pole so we do opening, we cover advancement, play games and have closing flags. I think the boys always know when the key gets forgotten.

I never have a discussion directly about POR's, teaching younger boys, etc. I just ask the question, "How you doing with the Help other people at all times part of the Oath? Pretty much encompasses a broad base and one doesn't need to go into a long song and dance about doing POR's or helping out as the boy gets older. For this reason alone, I have problems with BSA's managerial approach to false-leadership. Everyone is so focused on getting the job done, they are completely oblivious to the people those jobs are supposed to be helping. PL POR? It's a job that needs to get done..... What do you mean there's people involved? My patrol members don't listen to me anyway so why should I help them..... and the cycle of failure just keeps rolling alone. For me the most important POR in my troop is the PL. That's the person who exemplifies boy-led, patrol-method! And the second most important person? Well they don't even get POR credit! The APL. Why? Because it's their leadership job to make the PL look good. He's the #1 helper to the PL. He's the PL's right-hand man. and how do most people treat him? He only does something when the PL is not there. Otherwise he sits on his hands and does nothing so he gets no POR credit, it's not really an important job. Show me a good APL and I'll show you the next functional SPL. He knows how to take care of a PL and the next step in his evolution is multiple PL's and to me that's what an SPL is there for! So much of the BSA training is perpetuation of some in the box processes which have moved out of the realm of effective scouting. When people hear me say the next SPL should be one of the APL's, they just smile nicely and change the subject. Why? Because they don't understand real leadership of taking care of people, they are only interested in "getting the job done," which is not leadership of people, it's management of task..

Sounds as plausible as intelligent mutant pond-scum. (or mutant ninja turtles, ) I just find it difficult to wrap my mind around how complicated and sophisticated everything seems to be around me that it is all the result of happen stance. Billions upon billions of years of "evolution" and then BAM, 5,000 years and look at all the progress that has happened. Humanity goes from riding horses to walking on the moon in the span of one lifetime? Maybe the myth of religion is a stretch, but the fantasy of evolution is even bigger stretch for me. No one has never seen it happen, It can't be replicated in a scientific study. And yet it is taught as scientific fact? Under those parameters, God as a creator is just as much a scientific fact, as well.. At best evolution is a philosophical speculation that has been around since Greek/Roman times and it was used as a counter-argument against Chrstanity by Darwin (trained theologian). Philosophy and theology are some pretty close cousins in the realm of speculative thinking. Just comes down to what "school of thought" does one believe.

This is why I don't take POR's all that seriously and find that in the long run really don't need to. Boys, if left alone, will naturally move to a place where they want to be in the patrol. If Johnny is 2nd Class and would do a good job as QM, give him the job. If Freddie NEEDS a POR for advancement and someone puts him in the QM position, what right do they have to complain about his performance? Freddie is going to do a "get by" job so he can get his next rank. It has nothing to do with learning anything other than how to cut corners to the next step of the game. Give the QM to Johnny, he wants it, his heart is in it and he will do the job for the sake of doing the job, not just for advancement credit. If on the other hand, the SM/SPL put Freddie in the QM position and then complain to someone, that someone has the justified right to simply ignore them. They have created their own problem, live with it. Better yet, jump all over Freddie's case about how lousy a job he did when you in fact set him up to fail. If Freddie needs advancement credit, he had better start learning the job and getting himself ready for the POR. Nothing in the book says that if Freddie needs a POR he can't pitch in and help the existing QM so that he knows what's going on in the position and when appointments are made his name is at the top of the list. It's called taking responsibility for oneself and one's advancement. So the parent comes and says Freddie NEEDS a POR, make him a Bugler. Doesn't know how to play the bugle? So what, he doesn't know anything about any of the other POR's either. At least as a bugler, he won't be bothering anyone doing real work for the troop.

Why does Roseanne Roseanneadanna come to mind? BP, you did really misread Mozar's post, but I wanted to give him a chance to say something first. Remember people put the smiley faces in to show both humor and sarcasm. It's often difficult to tell, but from Mozar's other posts, I knew it wasn't sarcasm.