Stosh

The troop committee is responsible for supporting the boys in their efforts. PL reports advancement to Advancement MC, QM submits proposal for expenditure on equipment treasurer champions their needs to the committee. Scribe works closely with the treasurer concerning money coming in and PL's are given an accounting of the patrol's budget and whether or not fund raising might be necessary. The committee seeks out opportunities for fund raising for the boys to consider.when the funds start getting low. I believe that outside the actual program of the BSA programming, direct support between the committee and PL's is a good adult association method. The SM handles the BSA programming part of the processes. If I expect my PL's to lead their patrols by taking care of their boys, I feel the same expectation is placed on the committee. Take care of your boys. CC has a smooth running operation in his committee and they have run out of things to do? Then they start asking the PL's "What can I do to help?" Isn't it important that the adults lead by example and how are the dynamics of leadership for adults any different than for the boys? They aren't. This support of the boys by the committee is the adult association method that gets bantered around. Boys working hand-in-hand with supportive adults. How is this a bad idea?

I guess she wasn't much into youth-led...

@ Nothing self-serving about how your work as a parent and SM as it reflects in the actions of those who's lives you touch whether it be your son or some other family's son..

Does anyone ever remember a time when BSA taught to "pay it forward" like the fella who helped out Eagle94-A1? I have always done that when I have helped someone, just said, just help someone else out in the future when you get a chance. I don't remember who got me started on that, whether it was scouts or something else.

Never thought of that, thanks!

Mattman578's comments about his AT trip with his daughter got me thinking.... What's your greatest memory of the "Unknown Scout" story from your life. Only once in my lifetime when I have met an extremely helpful and courteous person and I asked if they were a scout did they say no they hadn't. A couple of years ago just after I married my wife, we were traveling on a weekend getaway. I get a flat tire along the freeway and I am unfamiliar with the whole tire-changing thing of her CRV. I was just getting started dragging everything out while the Mrs. was reading the manual. A pick up truck pulls up and says he can do that for us. I thought it rather strange he didn't even ask if he could help, he just said he'd do it. In no time at all we were all set to go. As he was headed back to his truck I asked him if I could pay him for his helpfulness and he said no. I then asked him if he had ever been a Boy Scout. He smiled and said Eagle 1981 and drove off. I may get on a soap box about Paper Eagles and Parlor Scouts, but when one meets a Real Eagle, it is impressive to say the least. I'm sure I'm not the only one that has a story like that, there are too many good SM's out there that are leaving a fantastic legacy in our culture. What say ye!

At the Centennial Jamboree I was a 3rd ASM wore a reproduction 1910 BSA uniform (US military with BSA buttons and collar brass). One of my Eagle scouts that just aged out was 4th ASM and he wore a complete 1960's uniform with all the community strip, garrison cap, etc. When we walked around to all the events, scouts came up and wanted our picture, but we refused unless the scout was in full uniform. If he was, we got someone else to take the picture and the boy got a picture of 1910, 1960 and 2010 for his scrapbook. Even with all the boys having to have 2 full uniforms for Jamboree, more than half the boys who asked for a picture were not in uniform. Even with the excuse it was so hot out, I reminded them I was wearing a wool shirt under my wool tunic and wore wool pants and wool leggings. Needless to say they got no sympathy out of me. One other boy from my contingent also wore a 1960's uniform because that is his normal uniform. When I say full-uniform, it doesn't need to be the latest/greatest, it just has to be a full uniform. A lot of boys really like the red piping on the mule-eared pockets of the old uniforms from before the ODL era. I am also surprised with as useless as it is, the boys still like the garrison cap. No takers on the red berets though. That was beyond useless. My boys while in camp can wear whatever they wish, doesn't need to be BSA related clothing (your Class-B/C stuff). But they do need full uniform for meals, flags (We always do in-site flags every am and pm), and when they are not in camp. My current boys have even taken further steps along the way and have patrol neckers. The troop wears blaze orange square neckers with black trim. Adults wear blaze orange with white trim. The next patrol will need to pick it's own color to go with the blaze orange necker. The neckers belong to the troop, not the individual boys. If they lose them, it's a $15 replacement cost because they are hand-made neckers. The boys also have 6' staves that are also a part of their uniform. They can be custom modified except for the hook and length by the boys. The boys were all fascinated with the lesson I taught on how to wood burn your staff using a magnifying glass. The PL carries the PL flag and honor ribbons on his staff And for all those that think this is going overboard on the uniforming, the boys like it, they got to pick it and from a quarter-mile away I know where my boys are. Those blaze orange neckers are fantastic! and in a crowd, just look for the staves.

The first time we went to a new summer camp, the boys all were wearing their full uniforms which they would wear for the week anyway. The boys had no idea what the standard routine of the camp was, Anyway they show up for Monday am flags in full uniform as usual. They look around and one other unit is wearing uniform shirts with blue jeans and a red webbed belt. Staff was in full uniform. The attention and comments from camp staff was priceless in setting the tone for the boy's. It was a case of lead by example, because by the end of the week, all but one unit showed up for flags in at least partial uniforms (uniform shirts). I don't think any of the units other than adults had full uniforms. The year before at council camp, the boys weren't told that Wednesday was No Uniform Day and when they showed up for morning flags were told to take off their uniforms. The PL's turned their patrols around and marched back to camp, did their own flags in camp and have never returned to that camp for summer camp as far as I know. I haven't been to our council camp for summer camp for 10 years now. To some boys who take scouting seriously the uniform can make or break an event.

That's what caught me off guard. I had met the new DE a week prior, the UC I had never met in my life which was surprising because he was new to scouting too and the COR was too hands off to know what was going on. Never underestimate the perfect storm when a parent goes on the warpath. Obviously as lame an excuse as "too much leadership expected of the boys" would never have gotten any traction with educated boy-led, patrol-method scouters.

Took Weather and Climate in college, was a weather spotter when I was responsible for medical on the emergency response team, lived in Tornado Alley most of my life. I could never figure out as a kid how the old farmers could stand on their front porch in the morning and know what the weather was going to do for the rest of the day. Now I know. When I was a kid they told us never to pitch our tent in a low spot, but what they didn't tell you was you had better know where that low spot was. They never told you to look UP when picking out your campsite, but the age of trees, dead branches and such can cause all kinds of problems, let alone draw in the lightening. And golf-ball sized hail and larger can kill you if you are caught in the open. In certain countries, stoning to death is a form of capital punishment. A hail storm can be just as effective.

@ The really neat thing about being boy-led, patrol-method is 1) it works and works great, 2) the confidence in leadership the boys get is fun to watch develop, and 3) if something goes wrong, the adults have to blame the kids, not the adults in the group. Unless, however, they complain that the boys are expected to do too much leadership. With an untrained COR, untrained UC and newbie DE, that has been known to happen. Your next step in the process is teaching your parents to stay out of the boys' business. If you can get your parents to "fix" the problem by having their son talk to their PL, you have reached Nirvana.

and while those same men thought that such things were self evident, they overlooked slavery to keep everyone in the game. Sometimes things aren't as self-evident as we would like to believe.

Something in a pastel?

One must also realize that when a boy "runs with it" it means he is going to do it the way and in the style he thinks works for him. When it comes to leadership there is not just one way for everyone, just one way for each one. My best TG was a quiet, sensitive young man that was excellent with the newbies. They all thought he was great and wanted him to be their PL. He smiled and turned them down but asked who would make the second best PL. and he would help him be a good PL. By the way that scout held the rank of Eagle and was not a useless JASM, he was my TG I believe he stayed in that position until he aged out. That was the troop were I was asked to leave. He did not go on in scouting after he aged out. His adult application would have been rejected. His best buddy was my other Eagle scout in that troop he spent all his time training PL's and APL's in leadership before he aged out (He said his worst leadership training was NYLT, but liked what I taught instead. Went on after aging out to a summer job as assistant director of high adventure in an out-of-council camp, got his SM training and WB, and is now in the US Air Force. Two totally opposite personalities yet two excellent leaders.

@, along with what I said above about leadership, there is also a lot of training to help boys get organized and that is the management part of the process. Yes, the i's need to be dotted and the t's crossed, but that's management. Each PL has 6-8 boys to assist with the management details. QM for equipment, Scribe the paperwork, Grubmaster - menus and food, ActivityMaster who is always looking for new and exciting things to be doing, etc. Now they have certain duties assigned to their expertise. That doesn't make them a leader. A leader GM knows the boys' diets, likes, dislikes, allergies, Kosher? Vegeterian? etc. This is how he takes care of his boys! QM knows what equipment GM needs, what equipment needs to be taken on a specific type of trek, do we go with 2 burner Coleman's or the Peak backpack stoves? This is how he takes care of his boys. Scribe, Everyone's paid up on dues, but little Johnny is 2 months behind. He knows that little Johnny's dad got laid off from work and with 3 brothers and sisters things are tough for him. This is why he has brought it to the attention of the troop committee to make sure he gets to go along on the trip even when he's behind on his dues. This is how he takes care of his boys. TG is bunking in with the NSP when he notices one of the boys crying the first night out. He gets the boy up, out to the campfire, stokes it to life and sits with the boy and regales him with what happened to him the first night he camped out with the troop. You are beginning to understand what leadership is all about when you realize it's not just a job you do just so you get credit for advancement. When one realizes they are no longer needed and are only along because National said 2-deep adult leadership is mandatory is the point where you have a boy-led, patrol-method troop. It also means you have to make your own camp coffee. If "take care of your boys" is the mantra for the boys, "Remember, you are working yourself out of a job," is the mantra for adults.

Okay is that bragging rights for the adults or the boys? $300k would go a long way to outfit 100 boys and pay for summer camp for the next 10 years. To me this ranks right up there with the massive plop camp trailers.

My apologies, yes, the uniformed Law Enforcement personnel

Boys aren't going to sit down and read books on how to do leadership. I notice the PL's have a major difficulty just to get them to read the handbook pages on the T-FC requirements. I just use the same comments over and over until the boys instill them into what they understand. Basics 101 PL's - take care of your boys. APL - make your PL look good, you're his right hand man. Everyone in the patrol is a leader of some sort, find your niche. The best leaders are the best followers. If you have nothing to do the only question you need ask is "What can I do to help?" If you have a problem get help from your buddy. If he can't help, then go to the PL. If the PL can't answer your concern, he has the SPL to help him. If the SPL can't find the answer, he will seek help from the SM. If you go to the SM first, all he's going to do is ask you where your buddy is. You may think you're leading but if no one is following, you had better reconsider your options.

If LE doesn't want to wear the uniform why did they apply for the job? If military doesn't want to wear the uniform why did they volunteer? If the scouts don't want to wear the uniform why did they join? It's not a big surprise after one signs the scouting application that one is expected to wear the uniform. How many kids join the hockey team and then be totally blown away by the fact that they have to wear the uniform? The reason for my longevity in the woods (60+ years) is the fact that I wear the uniform and bears, especially grizzlies respect that.

I find that unless has a totally useless and incompetent SPL (a really good thing here!!!) they have a tendency to get in the way of the PL's trying to run their patrols. Once one gets up to 3-4 patrols, I wouldn't even suggest an SPL. Here's another hint that you may never consider. Where does your SPL come from? Well, the PL's are working hard at making their patrol members successful, who's taking care of the PL? Remember you don't have an SPL? SM? Nope, the APL! We have so many APL's sitting around doing nothing that National has deemed the position so useless it doesn't count as a POR. Well, guess again. The APL is the PL's right hand man. That person not only fills in for the PL, he also does whatever it takes to make that PL look good and be successful. That's his #1 job. So if the APL's are doing their jobs correctly from what pool of scouts do you want to pull your SPL? From the guys who have been doing SPL work for their PL and now deserve the chance to serve multiple PL's as SPL. My SPL does not run the troop, he supports the individual PL's be successful as experienced backup to the APL who is in the learning stage. Every scout needs to be taught leadership skills and every job needs to be functional. When that all falls together you will realize the full potential of where boy-led, patrol-method can take you. When does one start this process? YESTERDAY! The New Scout Patrol (NSP, you were correct) can do just fine with the TG supporting the fledgling PL. Otherwise, if the NSP wishes to elect another older boy from the troop, then the TG can assist in that process as well. As far as leadership is concerned, all the boys must be willing to follow in order for it to be leadership. If the PL is a screw-up and the boys don't want to follow, dump him immediately and get someone in there that they will follow. It's not that hard. If the ousted kid doesn't make POR requirement because of that, too bad. This is not term elections, you don't perform, you're gone. I realize that the choice is not between woods skills and leadership training, my point being, why are they teaching us woods skills when they should be teaching us how to develop leadership within our boys. The BSA training is sorely short-sighted to say the least. Waiting to teach leadership is the most bogus argument in scouting today. Tenderfoot Requirement #9 - The first lesson in leadership! Servant Leadership 101 - The Buddy System - this is the basic training on how to take care of someone other than just your own sorry butt. So get off that butt and start helping other people at all times and that starts with your buddy. Once you get good at that, then you can move up to eventually taking care of 6-7 others in your patrol as a PL. Our magically appearing PL's are a result of neglected leadership development from Day 1.

I guess that would be the case if the uniform was just for the wearer.

What is it that makes the USMC Dress Blues stand out? What is it that makes the local police force recognizable? What really is the purpose of the uniform? Is it for the benefit of the wearer or the viewer? Define that and one will at least have a start.

Maybe First of all I would have never had the SPL. I would have focused on the PL's running their patrols before I introduced an SPL into the process. Sounds like a lot of the problems holding back the boys, and wasting 5 years time, is the functionality of the SPL. Seriously... HE IS NOT ALL THAT NECESSARY! I have served as SM in troops as large as 25 boys and never needed an SPL. We did just fine without one. I have a brand new troop. No TG, no SPL, just a PL and his patrol. I do not have any traditions to overcome and there are no expectations except what the boys want to do. I'm doing just fine with the boys. I train when asked. I do whatever the PL ask and we go places, go to camp, we attend camporees, and the boys are having a great time. We have just marked our first anniversary, taken on a new Webelos boy and he's fitting in nicely. This months outing was camporee, next month is summer camp, and the boys are working on a July activity now. We have no QM so the boys all set up the donated tents we received to make sure all the parts were there and in good shape. That was what the PL planned when he found 6 tents that just showed up in our scout closet. These were old Eureka tents that the boys didn't know how to set up, so the PL and I set the first one up, the PL and patrol did the rest. Not bad for 12 year old boys. Other than help set up the first tent, no adult associated with the boys for the evening, other than the ASM brought treats for the boys. I'm glad we got 4 more years of development before we can be boy-led, patrol-method

First of all it needs to recognize what make Scouting an important program for youth today. What is it's goal that it is to accomplish. If it looks at other programs out there and tries to compete by emulating them, well, they are a day late and a dollar short. They will always be playing catch-up. But for most, scouting, is a lot more than that. Who really cares who swam the fastest at the YMCA pool, or whether the kids had fun hiking the back trails behind the Boy and Girl's Club. And for that matter who cares if some kid holds the conference record for 4X4 relay. But somehow people notice when someone puts Eagle Scout on their resume. Historically that meant something because the program meant something special, like no one else out there has. BSA used to be out in the forefront of character development among our young men. In other words they LED. In recent years they have begun to look at the business marketing model and realize they are losing market share and have begun to FOLLOW the market indicators. They are now becoming generic along with the other programs out there for youth. The standards on which Scouting was based have changed. The new Cub Scout program is easy to fix because it's just another youth oriented entertainment program for young boys. But once the boys get to Scouting, the program is pretty watered down. Instead of opening up opportunities that no one else does, instead of providing the adventure they promise in the literature, instead of holding to a standard higher than anyone else, they end up in the long run doing nothing more than having boys find out the reality of scouting is really not there. Sure, some scouts make it all the way through, but is it because they wanted it or their parents did. Did they do it for the leadership training or character building aspects or just a check mark on the resume or college entrance application or did they do it just because dad was an Eagle Scout? With a clear vision of leadership, character building, boy-led, patrol method and how that all works together, they can start holding the feet to the fire all those leaders who are in it for all the wrong reasons. So you really think teaching SM's about woods tools is as important as teaching them how to develop real leadership within their youth? How about how well one can start a fire vs. how well one develops the patrol method in their units. One of the units I am UC for was explaining to me how boy-led, patrol-method his unit was. His NSP was now ready to take their place in the older boy patrols. The long process of making sure each boy was a good fit in every patrol was crucial for the adults to determine so that everyone can be successful. He was really proud of the fact that the boys were at the point where they functioned well enough at patrol cooking that they could invite the adult leaders for meals. The more he talked the more I cringed. This SM was totally stunned that my troop does not, nor is expected to cook for the adults. The adults cook and eat separately or they don't eat. He then went on to say the adults were too busy to be cooking for themselves. Too busy doing what? I didn't ask..... By now every red flag known to humanity had gone off in the back of my head. He had no idea what boy-led, patrol-method was all about. He was at a disadvantage in that his profession was that of high school teacher. It is unfortunate that all of his profession training is pretty much counter-intuitive to what is necessary to run a scout troop. Sometimes growth and change are a good thing..... sometimes it isn't. If it ain't broke don't fix it. I think that if one were to poll all the SM's in scouting today, you would get as many different definitions of scouting as there are SM's. And THAT is the problem. No one knows, not even National.

If that be the case, your council must really, really be bad news.