Stosh

In the dead of winter, no outdoor type programs for a while, I would think Klondike would be really nice. Our boys don't have a sled, neither did my other troop. Really hard to compete using someone else's sled especially when they have had a chance to practice and your boys' first race is the first time they have touched a sled harness. I do have to admit that the other troop that had a sled was basically designed and 99% made by the adults. Light weight mahogany sled with plastic runners. On a downhill course, the boys had to really run in order to keep from getting run over by the sled. How about a camporee where the boys all unload at the parking lot. Patrols all get coordinates to their campsite miles away. The next day at 8:00 they get coordinates as to where the activities will be, then at 3:00 pm, they get coordinates where their Saturday night campsite will be. Sunday am hike back to parking lot. Pretty much guarantee that 99% of the troops wouldn't show because all the ringer patrols would be the only ones capable of the challenge and they would have pulled the leaders out of all the other patrols who would now not be able to function. About the only thing it would accomplish would prove that the camporees all have to be dumb downed to the lowest common denominator and real challenges for real scouts is not on the table.

I would think the older boys would tire of T-FC competitive skill training sometime after say about 3 years. Then if nothing else is being offered, sports sounds nice as would just about any other program out there more designed age appropriately. I'm with Bad Wolf on this. The reason older boys don't hang around is because most troops never mature much beyond FC level activities, summer camp at council camps and MB's. We've been there done that and at 15-16 it's time to leave.

Our camporees have moved away from patrol competitions and are now themed games/programs. I don't know if I can take any more zombie survival or mission impossible outings any more. At least they could do is pick a scouting theme instead of this other stuff. The fall camporee is putting on the Cub Scout Spook-o-ree. I don't think the boys have a problem with camporees, but it's pretty much a crap-shoot as to what you're going to get.

On the Boy Scouting side of things, the adults should not be picking anyone so that's an easy fix. Boys should be doing any and all picking. Cub side? The DL should know his boys well enough to pick as he/she thinks would be the most effective and most deserving. The last time I was picking scouts was when I first took over am adult led troop and was making the change over to boy-led. I always had the same boy doing the Dutch Oven cleanup. Finally he asked why he always got stuck with "the worst job". I told him 1) he's my most trusted scout so I know that it's going to be done right the first time and 2) if you ever look around, you will see that you are always done well ahead of everyone else in after meal cleanup. We never discussed it again and he did the DO's until he trained his buddy and aged out.

Did anyone ever sit down and ask the question, "Why do we have camporees anyway?" There's a lot of volunteer resources being expended for something some districts really don't want. Email to DE: - Send this out to all district units. "We're going to be camping at Such-and-Such place, It would be nice to have everyone that can, show up. We were going to do such Dutch Oven stuff for the weekend. Hope to see you there. Cost? Whatever it costs for the number of sites you need." Why do these things have to be so complicated? Let the boys run them. The troop officers, TG, SPL, ASPL, QM, Scribe, etc. can run the patrol competitions just as well as adults can. And so what if they can't.

Hypocrisy on this issue is rampant from the lowest individual to the federal government. Recently seen on FaceBook.... It just depends n who's ox is getting gored on what day and whether or not it's a Thursday.

Nope, I'm with Bad Wolf on this one. The customer is the scout, if the districts don't support the units who are working directly with the customer (scouts) then when something goes wrong, the customer disappears and the districts end up with nothing more than a handful of air. Where's their support coming from then? BSA is providing services to the scout, if "management" doesn't assist the guy providing the service to the customer, then they have a strange set of business assumptions. No customer is expected to support a business that doesn't provide the services they have paid for. As a matter of fact scouts "support" the districts just by showing up and adding to their quota.

@ I know what you mean. For the 30+ years scouting as a scouter, I have always applied the Peter Principle of creative incompetence so as to not get caught up in the good old boys club. I had a discussion with my ASM who is also the DC and she was very curious why I never staff any of the training programs. I told her I used to but when things got out of hand with the new WB, and leader specific training, etc. it got to the point where it wasn't much fun. After the 100th person asked me if I was interested in WB21C, I finally started wearing my beads so they would leave me alone.

I can see the adult-led program for some people. That's why it took me 13 years to get frustrated. Philmont once every 3 years Sea Base once every 3 years Boundary Waters once ever 3 years Summer Camp every year, sometimes half-way across the country from local council. 100% Eagle Mill driven. Everyone had a great time, no youth leadership necessary. Their Eagle JASM was totally typical of what that troop produced. He was SPL of one of the Centennial Jamboree contingents and he was totally useless. Did exactly what he had been trained to do, sit around until some adult would do it for him.

If our district started a randomly selected troop to host camporees, we would never have a camporee again. A troop volunteered this spring and came in, ran program Friday night and Saturday morning and then left after lunch on Saturday. The three remaining troops got together Saturday night and we did our own campfire program. Then one of the troops took us on a after dark (full moon) nature hike to see how many animals could be identified by sound. It was really kinda fun. The boys were super impressed when we got to this swampy area and the frogs were going full chorus. He pointed out the sounds of 4 different frogs and spoke in whispers. Then he turned and shouted as loud as he could. It was like someone had flipped a switch, it was immediately total silence! I'm thinking the fun didn't really start for the boys until after the host troop left. After discussing it for a while, the boys thought that they could invite just another troop or two who practice boy-led, patrol-method and do a camporee that way. At least they are now thinking about it.

As ASM one cannot over-ride a well run adult-led program with any stupid ideas like boy-led or patrol-method. I tried that for 13 years before just walking away to help a troop that wanted to be boy-led. If one wants boy-led, patrol-method EVERYONE from the individual scouts to the COR have to be on the same page all pulling in the same direction or it's not going anywhere. Keep looking until you find one, they are out there.

In theory this would be really good, but it'll never fly. Unless a person had an extensive background in scouting as a kid, camping today means 5th wheeler in an RV park with store, pool and game room. The Mrs. and I were at a state park last fall and found that all the campsites with electricity were taken. Of the rest of the sites, none had water hook ups and none had sewer hookups and none had campers...... No bugs, exquisite fall foliage, and we had the place all to ourselves. It was just after Labor Day so the "camping season" was over and done with. Into that culture how are we to re-introduce the concepts of campfire cooking, tenting, and taking a simple walk in the woods to find what we could find? Canoe camp? What's that. We have sandbar camping here where the houseboats tie up on a solitary piece of beach and that's really roughing it around here. My canoe is rated for 750# capacity. That's a lot of gear. I can even plop camp on a sandbar in the river. Now try that with a kayak. It's like backpacking for canoeists. Mrs. and I do it all the time. So, why is it always the Mrs. and I doing these things? Kids today have zero interest in such things. Unless it is plugged in, it isn't any fun. Where do they get that from? Yep, their parents.

What I'm finding is along with the changes away from the historical (i.e. old-fashioned scouting) that is "out of touch" with the boys, also means that the intent of what original scouting was focused on is also gone. Adult-led programs in a program that is marketed as an adventure? Drop in the legalese fine print, G2SS, and a half-dozen "myth" traditions out there, and what one ends up with is sitting in a classroom chair can be dangerous. Where's the adventure in that? Adult-led programs are always limited to the ability of the adults to deliver the program. A SM with basic outdoor skills hits the pavement running, he's going to find out the race started yesterday and he's in, well over his head. One can't be an elementary teacher in the high school or college and believe for one second they can be effective. Scouts are trained to the lowest common denominator and that's usually the SM's abilities. Adult-led programs are limited to the number of boys they can "handle" at one time. A well trained professional school teacher will complain that a classroom of 20 is about all they can effectively handle at one time. So that pretty much limits the troop size unless they add more adults and fragment the troop. Or they can let the boys lead and break it down into smaller patrol-sized groups. Adult-led programs tend to be managerially organized. Agendas, rosters, menus, etc.The days of a can of beans, bed roll and a trail to follow are pretty much passe. A boy-led program? NO WAY ON GOD"S GREEN EARTH WE"RE GONNA ALLOW THAT!!! They go off and do something really stupid and maybe get hurt. Well if you're going to teach them to go off unprepared they probably will do something stupid and get hurt. Maybe as adults we ought to do a better job of getting the boys involved in the process and eventually trust them enough to actually let them do it all themselves.

There's always the "next level" for the boys, or they will become bored with the kindergarten curriculum (T-FC) and drop out when they turn 16. (or so they say)... An axe is to be sharpened to file sharpness because the weight of the head is meant to do the job. However to hone it beyond that to knife blade sharpness takes the tool to another level. Oldscout448 said, "My axes are just short of razor sharp." To me he is at that next level for the boys. I know what he means when he says that, but how many SM's out there even allow such a tool to be around the boys? Ever whittle with a hand axe? That is a skill I teach my older boys. If one is going to keep these boys interested in scouting until they are 18, one had better understand Woodscraft beyond the 101 level and have a pretty good idea what a PhD in Woodscraft is all about. Knots are another area, campfire cooking, Dutch Ovens, etc. are all things that SM's aren't taught, but unless the adults research and are proficient in these areas, what good are they for supporting the development of the boys as they get older?

With three districts in our council to choose from, making a choice between two camporees is easier than three.

I think the term "scout" is military, too. My boys go with: There is a scout uniform, everything else is not. When they are are summer camp they are in uniform except in the camp site and at the waterfront. If they want to run around the campsite in a pair of pink footie pajamas, it's okay. At the waterfront there is no standard for swimwear. Even with that said, the boys tend to go with their camp t-shirts, etc, along with their swim suits and/or scout pants. They police themselves rather well.

I guess I don't have this problem in my troops for some reason. It is always suggested to the PL's that taking care of your boys is not just while they are at scout activities. If a boy is absent from 2-3 consecutive meeting, the PL knows I will ask him if he knows what's going on. They also know that the answer "I don't know." doesn't bode well as an explanation for their SM. I always seem to get a pretty good answer, he's out for sports, his family is on vacation, he's getting behind in his school work and needs to stay home and study, etc. If absenteeism becomes chronic, the PL's pretty much hound the boy on a regular basis until his registration runs out. I once had a boy quit and for 4-5 months the PL called him up every week and offered him a ride to scouts until his registration ran out and he refused to re-register.

@@mgood777 Sadly true. Give them as much responsibility as they can handle. Unfortunately most adult leaders don't really believe they can handle all that much and are unable to step back far enough to find out. I don't know it it is the adults don't trust the boys, or they down trust their own teaching of the boys. Either way, the message for the boys is this is your troop, BUT we don't trust you to run it right. I have a personal yard stick I use in this situation. I trust my boys 100% until they prove to me I shouldn't. Doing it that way has produced very few disappointments over the years, and even then the boy always gets a second, or third, or however many he needs to succeed. I would say that after 40+ years of working with youth, 30+ in Scouting there might be a dozen out of hundreds of youth that I lost trust in. In every case it was a blatant and malicious act of rebellion on their part and it was usually their way of saying they were done and were quitting. It would have been a lot easier just to say I quit, but that wasn't always good enough.

One of the dynamics of the Green Bar Bill (GBB) training is that everyone in the patrol has a job to do. I was working to help the boys find their niche of which position they would like to do. I think the push back came from a couple of boys that didn't want to take any responsibility for anything, let alone take on and commit to something. Well, when the parents addressed this issue to the COR it came out the SM was expecting too much leadership out of the boys. So, as I was right in the middle of the GBB training, I was asked to leave. I also knew there was peer pressure working against me as well in that the other boys were also not please with the slacker attitude of these boys and addressed it in no uncertain terms. I do know those boys were no longer in the troop a month later because the others did step up and begin to lead, leaving them pretty much in the dust.

I'm sorry, Troop Guide (TG), the Position of Responsibility (POR) who generally works with the new scout patrol (NSP) to get them up and rolling.

Nothing wrong with having the boys do their own patrol fundraising.Not every fund raiser has to be some huge production with multiple moving parts. Even if they only make a few bucks on a Saturday afternoon, that's still a few bucks more than they had Friday night. A scout is Thrift - he earns his own way. That can be a patrol activity and might even be fun.

Woods tool training teaches how to work a tool safely. Experience teaches how to work a tool productively. Stosh C-9W-93 "Wood Badge typically means the advice giver thinks they're always right. In my experiences most WBers are too full of themselves." @ You have now gone from Bad Wolf to Big Bad Wolf....

Who assigned the duty to build the fire to the five boys? An adult? SPL? Okay the boys have a management task to perform. No one has given them the proper tools to do the job, nor the training on how to do it. Failure? These boys were set up to fail. No, you are not off-base, but your buddy is. Having beads or knots does not make someone an expert at anything. This gentleman needs to be reminded he is there to support the boy in their success, not revel in their failures. If he isn't going to support the boy, then they need someone who will. #1 rule - take care of your boys. If he's going to sit around and drink coffee while the boys fail, what example is he leading with? Next time the boys are sitting around doing nothing and he gets mad, just remind him this is the example he's been teaching them. Right now, I do not have older boys to teach the younger boys so when I'm out camping, we do not keep the 300' at this point. But when the boys are getting their meals together, I'm always doing something different. This past weekend, they cooked on a 2 burner propane stove and I cooked on my backpack stove using white gas. While I didn't say anything their curiosity did peak and they had to come over and checked it out. While they made foil dinners, I was doing up a hamburger/onion gravy to go over my mashed potatoes and glazed carrots. One boy dragged out his mess kit and mimicked my every movement and made the dinner that way. The other boys stuck with the foil dinners. Curiosity is wonderful teaching opportunity. Like you said, they can't figure out what to do when they have never done it before.

Wha's wrong with the knee socks. We have bramble bushes and poison ivy around here and when I wear shorts, I really like the protection. How about the old gaiters that the scouts wore in the '60's? That was a useless piece of equipment. Even the leggings of the teens and twenties had a function.