Stosh

First time I saw it I thought it stood for Not Yet Litter Trained.

Lovely, nothing like having your dirty underwear out on public display for everyone to see. It kinda reminds me of my mom telling me that if you will be embarrassed if it showed up on the front page of the newspaper, maybe you shouldn't be doing it. Too bad National didn't listen to their mothers. This is a classic example of what NOT to do.

Somehow I can't seem to get my mind wrapped around the idea of PLC doing servant leadership by coercing and convincing rather than taking what they have been given and working to help get it done. Also I have heard that while the older boys want HA during the summer, the younger scouts don't qualify for a variety of different reasons, and thus with mixed patrols, the whole concept of patrol method goes out the window for the summer's big events. But supposing one does have aged patrols of common friends. If the troop has both HA and summer camp planned, what's the problem. The younger boys go to summer camp and the older boys go to HA. End of discussion. No older boys to help at summer camp? Too bad, work around it. No younger boys qualify for HA? Too bad, get your prerequisites done and maybe you'll qualify next year. Mixed patrols? Too bad, some in your patrol are going to be happy and some are not. Have a patrol morale problem then? They'll get over it, the PLC will convince them... or else. I just see the makings of too many problems with such a dysfunctional PLC who thinks it's its job is to get everyone to think the same way when for a variety of legitimate reasons they don't have to.

Of course no one is really going to come right out and say what the problem is. Secret little meetings and behind the scene sniping and gossiping go on all the time. It's too bad we can't hold these people accountable according to the Scout Law and Oath. If we did hold them accountable about 2/3rds of the registered adults would be let go. That's never going to happen so an occasional scapegoat is sacrificed to the Great BSA Spirit residing in Irving. We have Youth Protection certification, Why can't we have Adult Protection certification that protects us from other adult leaders? That would actually make more sense.

Is my garden hose machine gun prohibited at the car wash fundraiser?

We can't always find time to do everything.... But we can always make time if it's important.... So when the parents say they don't have time to help out, what they are really saying is, "In the entire scope of my life, your project is not important enough for me to prioritized your issue higher. This formula also works for money. The scout pants for my son is not as important as the three packs of cigarettes I'll be smoking this week.

Welcome to the world of vindictive politics. It doesn't make a bit of difference what you might have said. People on a rant will work only to accomplish their goal. You are at a level 5 conflict and there's no hope of resolution. Even if you go to court and win, the SE and his political minions will make your efforts for the boys worthless. I know it's not what one wants to hear in a situation like this, but sometimes it just isn't worth the effort on an empty victory. When I was young and foolishly idealistic, I believe benevolent organizations like churches and Boy Scouts where they have clear missions of caring would not be like this. I figured this kind of stuff happens in government and cut-throat corporate America. Oh how silly I was. If one turns over enough rocks they're going to find the truth and it ain't always pretty. Best of luck with your efforts in whatever you decide to do.

The swing took a generation to get over to one side, it may take another whole generation to swing it back. I do believe my generation of narcissitically "doing your own thing" set the pendulum in motion. It's going to get a generation to recognize there's more to life than looking out for oneself before we see a general trend in the other direction. Hopefully BSA and other volunteer organizations can hang in there long enough to survive.

When they look the other way, you gonna steal their pie?

I'm thinking you are correct. I don't think people like to get involved as much as they used to. I think churches and other non-profit, volunteer groups also are feeling the pinch. A person's volunteering is now a critical factor in college entrance and employment situations. It used to be assumed to the point that one stood out as strange if one didn't have at least one volunteer option in their lives. The pendulum will swing back the other way again soon. We've been through this cyclically over the years.

Hmmm, yet National let our Civil War reenactor crew load real rifles and fire and real people with other real people standing in front of them. We did suggest they aim just above the enemy's head in case anything got down the barrel. The 30' rule was in place because that's how far the flame came out the end of the gun. By the way, the crew's been doing that now for 15 years. And yes, the crew has permission from national, it was directly asked and directly answered. Scripted battles were one thing, but open and judged tacticals were a blast, literally. So the hypocrisy continues.

Never could figure out "too big" was ever a problem. If a PL is working with 7 boys and the SPL working with 7 ASPL's who all have 7 PL's. No one has responsibility for more than 7 boys and if the room is big enough, shouldn't be a problem. Of course the patrols could meet on different nights too. Looks like a lame excuse, I'd go with door #2 as well.

The Mrs. just got back last weekend from a 3 river paddle down in that area. Said the water levels were pretty good down there. If your boys need suggestions, let me know.

Our high school has a competition pool indoors with open swims in the evenings. During the winter months, we suggest to the patrols to take advantage of the fun and at the same time review the swim test requirements. The NSP is encouraged to practice the test to be able to pass it once they get to camp. The pool has a lifeguard on duty during the swim. Until we have a swimmer token showing the boy is a swimmer, he has to stay in the shallow end unless he can pass the test. Lifeguard may allow him in the deep end, our PL's don't.

Where ya heading and when?

Every soldier knows it's easier to kill the enemy if they have been dehumanized. Same can be true for criminals, and fetuses.

And National wants us to take them seriously and they turn around and do this? As one who survived many rounds of mumbledee peg, I'll take a pass on this.

I have never had a patrol that didn't want to participate in the opening and closing flags. I did have the boys walk off a parade ground because the boys didn't like what was being done. They went back to camp and did their own flags. We had 3 patrols at the time and they were all in agreement as to how the troop reacted. The PL's keep track of who does the flags each time, or if they can't remember, one will volunteer his patrol. Right now with the new troop it's not an issue because we have only one patrol. If a patrol has a service project, they can through the PL's (or PLC if one has one) offer invitations to the other patrols to join in. Usually, but not always, they do. Even if a patrol as a whole says no to a service project, I have had the minority voters still join in the service project activity. Swim tests are done every year at summer camp otherwise they are done as a patrol activity. We don't have a trailer, each boy is responsible for his own gear and the patrol QM handles the patrol equipment. When I did have an SPL in my former troop, the SPL's job was supporting the PL's in their work. If the reports came back that three patrols all wanted to go to different summer camps, the SPL would work with the adults to make it happen. He was the liaison support person between the adults and the patrols. He basically did very little except what it took to support the patrols. As one can see, the SPL is somewhat important once one gets up to 3-4 patrols, but pretty useless prior to that. Once the PL's feel the need for such a support person, THEY select someone to fill that role. My SPL's are selected by consensus of the PL's who will be relying on him to help them. If they pick the wrong person, it's their own fault and they know it. More often than not the boys usually pick one of the best APL's to be the SPL. That person is usually recommended because of the help he has shown to the PL who submits his name. It always seemed to work out well. When all the dust settles, the selection of PL's is vastly more important than the SPL. A lot of troops don't look at it this way and struggle with POR fulfillment because of it. This is where the long lists of PL duties, SPL duties, QM duties all come from. I've never had a list of duty requirements for my POR's. The boys quickly figure out what needs to be done or they are replaced by someone who does.

I wonder if the guy beating the horse had been drinking? Either way, he's walking now.

I never use the term "boy-run". An adult-led program can be boy-run. Boy-run is just a way of saying adult-led without actually running afoul of the intent of Boy Scouting. Oh, but of course my boys run the program but do they lead the program? Who's making what choices?. Thus the words used convey the message of intent. BSA shows it's hand when they say adult leaders because in the back of their mind they don't worry too much about boy leadership as much as merely having the boys run through the actions necessary to operate a troop enough to call it boy-run. One of the methods is Adult Association, not Adult dominance, leadership, or control. Associate v.verb To connect in the mind or imagination. To connect or involve with a cause, group, or partner. Wasn't she associated with the surrealists? To correlate or connect logically or causally. Asthma is associated with air pollution. To join in or form a league, union, or association. The workers associated in a union. To spend time socially; keep company. associates with her coworkers on weekends. n.noun A person united with another or others in an act, enterprise, or business; a partner or colleague. A companion; a comrade. One that habitually accompanies or is associated with another; an attendant circumstance. A member of an institution or society who is granted only partial status or privileges. adj.adjective Joined with another or others and having equal or nearly equal status. an associate editor. Having partial status or privileges. an associate member of the club. Following or accompanying; concomitant. Where in any of those definitions do we have the leaders directing, controlling, guiding, or making the decisions for the boys? NOWHERE! Associating is nothing more than being there with them. So why do we have this as a method? Because boys of this age tend to pretty much associate with their peers primarily and their families secondly. They do not have a general experience of knowing a lot of adults other than in a dictatorial relationship. Parents tell them what to do, teachers tell them what to do, pastors tell them what to do, their peers don't. They just hang out together and enjoy each other. Scouting is intended to get these boys ready for adulthood and if someday these adults are going to be their peers they need to have contact with them and learn the dynamics of what adults that are friends do. Redefining the relationships of scouting using language often gives a clear message of intent. Sure the boy-run their patrols, but they can't make any choices other than those set forth by the adults who have made it quite clear the expectations mandated to fulfill the job. Where's your patrol calendar? Where's your duty-roster? Who do you have doing what this meeting? Your patrol was assigned.... About two or three years of that and the boys are eyeing the door. And I don't blame them one bit. It's no different than at home, at school or anywhere else the adults hang out at and make the rules. Thus you have the youth club houses and gangs popping up all over. No adults run these groups, just peers. "If you're not part of the gang, you don't make the rules for the gang." Every scouter will argue that this is not what Scouting is all about. But I'll argue that point all the time. BP did not use the military words for the command structure to design his youth program. The boys are not known as soldiers, their APL's are not corporals and their PL's are not the sergeants. They are PATROLS, a small group of individuals with a mission AWAY FROM AND DISCONNECTED from the main body of officers. It works TOTALLY INDEPENDENT of the military structure. It survives on it's own resources and has a mission to accomplish that it is in full control of choosing what to do to complete that mission. In no way do those dynamics fit in the BSA program of today. The adults who complain that they are ending up babysitters today are such of their own making. They complain about the helicopter parents, but they are themselves helicopter babysitters for these boys. Isn't that what an Eagle Mill is? My boys call all the shots, always have, always will. I associate with them as a peer, not a leader. I support their objectives, their plans, their development on their terms. And for some reason I still produce Eagle Scouts, I still get the boys out in the woods, and I still have far less disciplinary problems as those being discussed on this forum. So one can accuse me of being a maverick and running my own program outside the BSA all you wish. It makes no never-mind to me, because it's not my own program outside the BSA that is being run, it's the boys' program the way they want to run it and they're doing just fine because they are the one's calling the shots and leading the patrols. The only "trouble" I have run into over the years is in the area of adults wanting control in the unit. Once they gain that control and start directing the boys, is my cue to leave. To me that's not what Scouting is all about. There's no adventure in a glorified extended family. There is adventure in a self-contained gang.

There are those who's driving is obstructed by eating and drinking coffee, prescription and TOC drugs, smoking pot and cigarettes, changing the channel on the radio, playing with the heater/AC, talking on the cell phone, staying up too late not getting 8 hours of sleep. Crusades based on personal concerns are honorable, but not very practical. Nobody's going to go back to walking.

My brother's daughter was born WAY to early.There were children aborted who were older than her. When I baptized her in neo-natal intensive care, I cold hold her completely in the palm of my hand. Choices where made. My brother calls her his "Million Dollar Baby." She's driving up next week from Illinois to visit. Looking forward to taking her out for dinner. Her life is precious to me and for me that's all that counts. Maybe she didn't have a choice in the matter, but her parents did and they chose pro-life.

The same argument can be made for guns and sex...

Interesting ideals, but kinda flawed in certain areas. Patrols are empowered to run their own program, EXCEPT when others tell them differently. How often is EXCEPT acceptable? Older boy patrol wants to do HA for the summer, PLC says they have to go to summer camp>

I guess I'm a bit more laid back on this issue. Taking the boys on a brewery tour, learning how to make wine, beer, distill spirits (which I learned in sophomore chemistry class anyway), is a good learning opportunity to get into the issues involved with this legal drug. Will it lead the boys to alcohol? Probably not any more will the tobacco barn across the road is going to lead my grandchildren to smoking.