Stosh

There are those that feel that the interaction of the boys with older boys and the association with adults implies that is where the leadership resides. That's not true, it only originates as learning from them. The old Leadership Corp of scouts consisted of older boys NOT OF THE PATROL that assisted the growth and development of leadership within the patrols. They did not need to be in the patrols. When a boy wears the Instructor patch, where is is major focus? On the new scouts and getting them through T-FC. The SPL works with the fledgling NSP PL and APL. The QM works with the boy in the patrol who will be focused on the equipment, Same for the Scribe and any of the other troop officers. If the Patrol-Method is the goal of scouting for the boys, the leadership corp doesn't run the troop, they assist and develop boys in the patrols to function as a patrol. This is the older boy association everyone gets so excited about needing. No, they need only a handful of the best to work with the younger boys and the rest of the older boys are doing their older boy focused activities. Time for Philmont, what happens to the leadership corps of older scouts? are they pulled out of the patrols? Nope, they never were part of the patrols, they simply go as a patrol of their own. The patrol of the mixed aged patrols is not disrupted to accommodate the needs and interests of the older boys.

Adult run programs will always appear to be more "successful". But that's not what scouting is all about. We already have covered the fact that boy-run, patrol-method is tantamount to semi-organized chaos.

NSP with an older bully PL? I'm sure the boys had a chance to pick their PL. Oh, no they didn't? This is not a same aged patrol. This is a mixed patrol with heavy adult influence on its makeup. Sorry, not a good example. A true NSP will have it's own PL elected from its membership just like any other patrol. Thus troops have a TG to work with that patrol. Otherwise one has a NSP, a bully PL and what is the TG doing? Once again adults running the patrols is not the patrol-method.

But you're thinking theoretically in terms as an adult and the only way one is going to accomplish that is by adult mandate, not friend selection. This is the first step in an adult-led troop. The adults know better than the scouts. One of the main reasons the patrol-method doesn't work for adults is because if given the choice of hanging out with your buddies or babysitting the new guys, they will not babysit unless the adults dictate that they do. From that point on, the fun's over.

"Identify or show evidence of at least ten kinds of wild animals (birds, mammals, reptiles, fish, mollusks) found in your community." White tailed deer vs. deer is an addition to the requirement. Deer, rabbit, mouse is good enough for me. If BSA wanted it more specific than general common names, they would have included it in the requirement. Now if the boy goes with Cotton tailed Rabbit and then sees and identifies a Jack rabbit, he gets two checks.

By the way in the 1960's when I was in scouts, I don't remember any boys in my patrol that weren't buddies with me in the same class at school. We hung out together in Scouts, in School and in the neighborhood. Like I said before, we would camp the weekends without adults whether it was a scout activity or not. After 4 years of scouting and none of us had advanced yet to FC, we as a group all quit and joined Civil Air Patrol.... as a group. It was high school graduation that brought an end to the "gang".

How does one get the patrols to be mixed without adult intervention?

Fox News Scout bashing? I don't think so. This is a Irving self-inflicted wound. From the sounds of it on the forum, WHO IS NOT scout bashing for such a stupid move on their part?

If boys are friends with other boys who are relatively the same age, then one ends up with age based patrols. At least that's been my experience over the years of letting the boys select their own patrols. I also find that once they select early on in their career, they seldom make major changes. If a boy moves out of the area, they might try and draw in a boy close to their age or may just remain a boy short. Maybe a younger brother will be picked up down the road, but the switching out is not a normal occurrence. The troops that have mixed aged patrols usually have some adult involvement in the process of patrol selection.

What's really fun is identifying 10 different plants while going down the freeway at 65 mph. Works really nice when all the flowers in the ditches are in full bloom. Sometimes it gets so serious we have to take the back roads because the boys want to stop and take a closer look. Can't do that on the freeway.

Yes, for the requirement, but for fun and keeping up with the observation skills we make the requirement into a game. The thread title just said 10 wild animals, thus the boys will jump on that and win with a small herd of deer or a flock of birds. I enjoy the twisting of logic as part of the game. It gets the boys thinking all the different possibilities they could come up to win the game based on the rule.

We do a contest, Newbies get to search the whole forest for the 10 animals, the older scouts are restricted to a 3' square randomly selected on the ground. However, sitting there studying that 3' square, they hear a cardinal, they can count it or if an animal appears within their sight they can count it as well, but they cannot move from their original position. Only the first person spotting something counts. If there's a deer, the first one to call it gets credit, no one else can claim it. Of course there's a bit of cheating that can be done and still win. The rules say 10 wild animals. A herd of 10 deer all identified as deer is an instant win. If one doesn't like that, then make better rules. I teach my boys to think outside the box. Love it when they out-smart the adults.

Plain and simple.... For the patrol-method, make sure the boys pick their own patrol members and patrol leaders. No rules, but the rules the boys make up for themselves. As a definition of a patrol, the membership is 6-8 boys, any combination of ages, social structure, or whatever they choose.

The same way I see only 2-3% of the boys getting to Eagle over the years. That's not much of a statistical success rate. How many older boys hang out with the younger ones and how many drop until the last minute and grab onto the Eagle at the last minute. What's happening in the time period in between? I'm thinking the boys aren't seeing it as much of a success. Sure they start out with the "patrol-method" and with all the instruction and development, the last thing on the boys' mind is getting the sacred Eagle for one's personal achievement. Where's the patrol-method in that? Sorry, I have heard way too many stories where buddies hung together from Cubs through Eagle, working together so that everyone made it. That is what the patrol-method should be and that can't be done with arbitrary assignments of differing aged/interest youth. If left alone to select their patrols, they do not select mixed groups, they pick their buddies every time. Only the adults insist on something else.

Dang, with Phil in the picture I thought it was just getting started. LOL!!!

I'm truly sorry Moderators, but Phil is way over the top, this has to be sent to I & P right away before it gets out of hand.

40 years ago when I was in seminary we were told to expect 10% of the people in the congregation will be doing 90% of the work. Things really haven't changed all that much.

Welcome to the forum! My boys love to cook, the are always looking for new things to make while out camping. Our boys don't sing either. It used to be really popular for groups to sing, but that seems to have waned in the past 20 years. My former troops were heavy into water sports like canoeing and kayaking. One has to have S'mores. A graham cracker square on the bottom, a layer of a chocolate bar like Hershey's, then a campfire roasted marshmallow, with another square of graham cracker on top. I hope that makes sense. What we do here doesn't often translate into other country's traditions. My niece lived in Australia for a while after getting married and her mom had to send her all kinds of things she couldn't get there. Sausages cooked on a stick over the fire served on a bread roll is also poplar. They are garnished with ketchup, mustard, ground sweet pickles, sauerkraut, onions, mayonnaise or whatever to suit one's preferences.

My council doesn't need fixin'. It's just fine the way it is. For the most part I ignore them and they ignore me. The most they have me roped into is being UC for our neighboring troop. In reality, that's how I recruited the DC to be my ASM.

@@TAHAWK If the goal of the troop is the patrol method, making plans to not function as patrols often times is counter-intuitive. If the "powers that are" decide to do things in the best interest of the greater whole, then the individual patrols need at times to be ignored. Every decision made reduces the effectiveness of the patrol method because one cannot have it both ways. Sure most units operate with some sort of commonality and cooperation between patrols that can be made more effective with the use of a "third" party, i.e. the PLC. But the best interest of the troop is to have an effective patrol method, not one that is constantly challenged by outside directives and mandates of that group.. If the two younger patrols want to join resources for an activity great. They are assisted by the PLC to accomplish that. If the two older patrols what to join resources for an activity, great. They are assisted by the same PLC to accomplish that as well. Even though they are doing two different activities are they working to fulfill the program of the BSA? Yes. The younger boys wanted a walk in the nature park and the older boys wanted to hike the rugged mountain trails. Does the PLC need convincing of consensus to accomplish the goals of scouting for the troop? No, it does not. The PLC does not need to function in a one-way or the other mode of operation. If it is going to serve the needs of the patrol method as the goal of the troop, then it has to be creative and resourceful, take the leadership on developing an effective and diverse program for differing levels of interest and challenge for the patrols. It can be done and those units that are most successful in the patrol-method have better retention because the patrol members are deciding, directing and accomplishing the kinds of activities their boys in the patrol want out of the program, not what some other group has decided for them. I'm a member of Patrol A. My buddies and I love classical music. The troop would like us to think about a Concert in the Park activity with a Dutch Oven picnic ahead of time. We all think it's great. Our PL goes off to the PLC for the monthly meeting letting everyone know of our interest. So, he comes back and says that all the patrols think a Concert in the Park activity with Dutch Oven picnic is a fantastic idea. The only glitch is that the other 3 patrols all want to go to the heavy metal concert on the other side of town at that time in a different park. So, now, were do you think my buddies and I are going to be that night? Busy? Yep, you got it. Okay, same scenario with a patrol-method PLC. PLC directs ASPL to notify adults the need for rides in two different directions that night. QM gets 3 Dutch Ovens ready for the heavy metal group and 1 Dutch Oven for the classical group. Scribe is in charge of collecting up funds for the tickets and orders so many heavy metal tickets and so many classical tickets. End result? Everyone happy? Everyone get what they want? Is the troop still in tact? Attendance is up? Do the patrols get what they want? Does the troop accomplish the scouting program needs? Win all the way around? To me, this is the goal of the PLC, a coordinator of the patrol-method, not a third party directorship. The goal of the troop is the patrol-method's success.

Last time I rechartered I had to go to the scout office and pick up my packet, which I filled out and returned to the scout office. Popcorn was kinda the same way. Just dealt directly with the office. The only time I see the SE is at RT where she hands out fliers which are all available on the council website. I see very little need for the districts other than to hand out the annual DAM awards. It does make it easier and less travel for everyone to go to a district RT rather than the longer drive of the council RT. It wouldn't make any difference in my district, they don't come to RT anyway. They don't even show if it's in the same city.

@ Keep that up and you're gonna get booted off this forum for speaking up.

While open carry is allowed in my state, conceal carry is another issue. While a Civil war reenactor, I was an officer and carried a handgun and sword, both legal weapons. The handgun, although black powder, still loaded from the front of the cylinder and was .45 caliber. Only the .44 magnum is a more powerful handgun. I do have a .50 caliber muzzle loading handgun as well, but that's a single shot. Well, I do a lot of educational programs on the Civil War and when youth are present, they don't want to see canteens and wool socks, they want to see .58 caliber rifles, handguns, and swords. So one puts on their uniform, straps on the gun and sword, grab the rifle and goes to the meeting. In the winter it's cold so you put on your great coat. Now sword and handgun are covered, you're illegal. then you get there take your rifle out of the trunk, still in the case, and you're illegal even in the summer time. So you get Conceal Carry permit to cover all your basis. You have a gun in the car, stop for gas and the Mrs. is in the car with the gun. That's not going to sit well with the Mrs. if the police take notice, so now she's CC as well. By the time one sorts out all the what you can do and what you can't do, it's just easier to bite the bullet and go CC. Well this afternoon I was turning over my garden getting it ready for planting this weekend. All of a sudden I happen to look up and there's a strange dog standing 15' away staring at me It wasn't any of the neighbor's dogs, I know them all. We had a little Mexican stand-off while it had a chance to ponder the 9 mm in my hand. This was no little dog, it looked like a lab mixed breed. Finally it moved off and out of my yard. Like the rest of the boys in my neighborhood, I grew up with toy guns, I started hunting when I was 10 or 11 years old. I owned my first gun when I was 12, given to me by my parents as a birthday gift. Hunted ever since. Was a member of the high school rifle club for 4 years. Never been a member of the NRA. But many would say I'm obsessed with guns. Yep, I have a whole cabinet full of them, mostly military assault rifles. I can honestly say I have been personally responsible for putting military assault rifles into the hands of minors. Of course they were 1843 Enfields and 1863 Springfields but they would take an 18" bayonet so they were pretty formidable. So with that much background, that much exposure to weapons of all kinds I can honestly say, I have no intention of using one unless I am forced to. Does aiming a squirt gun at someone trigger some kind of psychotic break from reality and encourages me to do bodily harm to someone? Nope, not at all. Squirting anyone within 25' with the garden hose is an almost overwhelming temptation, though. Do I think BSA is taking the adventure out of Scouting with dumb rules? Yep.