Stosh

@ When we did the Camp Buffalo Bill summer camp, a ranger from Yellowstone came over and did Sunday night bear orientation. Excellent training. He said the blacks tend to be territorial and protective and can be very aggressive in their area. Grizzlies are just plain mean and will challenge (if necessary) anything at any time in any place. I had it explained to me that in bear country one is to wear small bells on the shoe laces of the boots and carry pepper spray. That way when you find bear scat, the scat that has bells in it and smells like pepper is grizzly scat.

No problem, that's why I started the thread. if I think this kind of thing works well elsewhere, it's something that may need to be suggested to my boys to consider for their situation. We kinda follow the idea that if camporee is next month, we do things this month to get ready for it, same for summer camp (my PL went through the summer camp menu to make sure the boys were going to be okay with food preferences and allergies and also what MB's they were signing up for) and other big activities. Advancements and competitions are done more in the winter months. I guess there's a bit of theme going on naturally, just never really promoted it as something concrete to focus on. When I had multiple patrols, they did basically the same thing but while one was doing menus another might be doing equipment check while a third (older boys) just did a game because they got that stuff done quickly being more experienced.

Then there's the SM and PL's that don't know what these animals are that the boys are finding and that causes a real problem. For advancement, identifying plants and animals has it's reasons. First to introduce the boys to being observant and secondly to insure safety in the woods. Are the plants edible? Are they poisonous? What about this animal will it hurt me? Will it bite? etc. Be aware, observant and safe. Beyond that, I don't care if they don't know the difference between a crow and a raven. Most people can't tell anyway. One could assume the 11 year old will refer to all of them as crows. But there comes a time, well beyond the T-FC years that knowledge about these animals needs to go beyond basic identification. Out at Philmont the SM of the troop I was with old all of us adults that whenever we see a bear it's to be identified as a black bear, not a grizzly so as to not scare the boys. Yep, that's a good solution to the problem. A grizzly comes through our camp and the SM tells all the boys not to worry it's just a black bear. That year they were having big time problems with the bears. The first night were were there in base camp a string of lights were coming down off the Tooth of Time in the middle of the night. At breakfast I made the comment they must have had bear trouble up at the Tooth of Time camp. SM tied into me and all but threatened to leave me behind. About 20 minutes later the staff announced the fact that a contingent had been forced off the Tooth of Time when they couldn't run off the bear. How are these boys going to be ready to face danger when adults lie to them? As they get older they need to learn about their habits, their intelligence, and their attitudes towards humans, not just identify them. On that same Philmont trek, we came across a patch of wild raspberries. The boys began pulling them off the bushes as fast as they could. I just asked if anyone was watching for the bears? SM had a fit again. I said, this is prime food for the bears and we're in their kitchen and they are well aware of these berries. Pick a few, and eat them here. If you eat too many or get the juice on their hands, the smell will follow us down the trail and so will the bears. I didn't have to remind any of them the importance of moving out of the bear feeding area. Most of our boys can identify a small poison ivy plant along the trail, but when I showed them a 30' vine going up a tree they wouldn't believe me until my wife came over and told the boys to stay away from that vine because it's poison ivy. SWMBO has spoken... We were clearing brush out of an abandoned park and cutting that vine would have been a real problem for everyone. Like I said, identifying 10 plants and 10 animals for rank advancement is pretty much a non-issue when it comes to how precise the identification needs to be. It's only the first step in a long line of lessons the boys will need to get under their belts.

As part of his boys' PLC/Planning meetings Hedgehog mentions the idea of themed meetings. I found it interesting. As the troop gets larger is this more of a concern than if the troop is 2-3 patrols instead? I have never really done the PLC in that I have served as SM of smaller units. Flags are coordinated by the PL's on the spot (who does what?, who's turn is it? etc.) It's no big issue and the boys rotate pretty well. The themed issue? My boys generally are doing "their own thing" in the patrol breakouts. After flags, the patrols break out into patrol meetings where they work on what they want, do their own game or competition prep, advancement, or activity planning. They then come back together for closing flags. If two PL's want to do some inter-patrol competitions, they work it out between themselves. NSP generally is working pretty diligently on advancement and getting oriented to the patrol-method for the first year, but then start taking on more challenging things after they all are at FC. The advanced boys in the NSP work with the others who struggle and there's always one or two that do. It does help the bonding for them to make sure no one falls behind. The older boys might be doing menu planning or equipment review for the upcoming camporee and the older boys generally are working on some sort of HA activity. Either researching, reporting findings, or calculating costs of such activities to make sure they get the best bang for the buck. Troop officers are generally off by themselves if they don't have a specific assignment they are working on. TG is with the NSP, Instructor might be there with the NSP as well working on advancement. QM might be with the patrol working out equipment issues, etc. SPL and ASPL kinda going around making sure everything is running smoothly. Occasionally a troop officer might be called on to be an impartial referee for some game the patrol is playing. Like I said, we never have gone with any theme for the evening. What are the pros and cons in that my boys have never asked for such an emphasis and really stay pretty busy without it.

First of all, welcome to the forum! Whenever I have been at the BWCA we did not go through any outfitters nor did we use Northern Tier resources. It was far cheaper to just do our own thing, so I cannot speak to the rule issue. But I will have to admit the boot thing makes sense. I know of at least 2 boys who lost water shoes on portages when they went knee deep in mud and had them sucked off. It was fortunate they had other athletic shoes or borrowed from buddies as a backup. We were lucky. I also speak from experience the extra 85# of canoe weight or 100#+ of double duffles puts a ton of extra strain on ankles and knees and the portages are not paved and a twisted ankle can happen at any point. Once that happens, the trip is over. My brother has had experience with others breaking bones. They were two days into the week-long trip and it took two days to get the person out and to the hospital. It was a leg so they had to carry him as well. To avoid hassles and be prepared, I would put up with a little discomfort of the boots if one is going to do a lot of portaging. Personally I always wear the military jungle boots when canoeing, Kayaking a lighter weight watercraft and not needing to portage very much, I have used water shoes for that. That's just local stuff where a second pair of footwear is easily accessible..

Since when is talking about someone's creative alternatives to solving problems, belittling others? If mixed patrols work for you. Fine, hang in there. They don't work for my boys so I allow them to do what they wish to make it work for them. I like it because it is far less hassle for me. If someone can benefit from that, then that's fine. If not, ignore the thread and move on. Maybe after a post like that one ought to review their own position and take their own advice. This will be my last response to your petty tirades. You may have the last word.

Sometimes we're our own worst enemy. I volunteered to be SM for a struggling troop. The didn't want to move to boy-led, patrol-method and preferred to fold the troop instead. So after it closed, I started my new troop a half mile away.

Sorry, JoeBob, for some reason I thought you were a Texan. Once us Yankees hit the Mason Dixon, it's like everything is Down South... It was kinda like living in S. California for a year and everyone talked about New Mexico and Utah as back East. Say what? In California there is no West. Last year my brother (big time hunter) and his wife (Turned down their first date because it was deer week) got skunked. Their 14 year old daughter filled all 7 tags. The Mrs. spent 25 years in Alaska, ate plenty of moose. She says it's the best venison and prefers it over beef or pork.

It always amazes me that there are those out there that promote the mixed patrols as the way to go. Basically they grab up their literature and show chapter and verse how it's done. It works for them. Last week I went out for the first time with the local Canoe and Kayak Club. The Mrs. and I got out there and had our kayaks in the water all set to go. Everyone but one had kayaks. It is a known fact that a kayak is quicker and more agile than a 17' canoe. I figure he's going to hold us back and make the trip longer than what the Mrs. and I were used to. Well, we're new so we will play nice. The guy got his kevlar canoe in the water. Okay, that's a plus one, weight makes a difference. Then he put his lawn chair over the middle thwart. Okay that's a -5, everyone knows you paddle from the rear in a canoe. Every book ever written about canoeing tell you that's how you paddle a canoe, Only exception is poling from the front. Well it was getting interesting. He now brings out his kayak paddle, and gets in, he's ready to go. Seriously? In all the years of canoeing and kayaking I have never seen such a thing. But it made sense. He paddled twice as much with the kayak paddle than he would have with a single blade canoe paddle and he didn't need to learn any j-strokes, sweeps, or feathering. He was in the middle of the canoe so he maximized his turns and the high center of gravity allowed him to simply lean to leverage his canoe to the edge for an even sharper more agile turn radius. Needless to say he did not hold anyone back on the float. And what book did he learn that from? NONE, just plain tried it out and it worked better than doing it by the book. Maybe I'm not doing it right by the literature of the BSA, but I do have a pretty good grasp of patrol method, patrol selection by the boys, groupings by friends, patrols that have age identities that don't need to be broken up to accommodate special activities, older boys that are involved and functioning. leadership and POR's that actually don't need to be told what to do and they are surprisingly functional, and the new boys come on line and are running pretty smoothly within their first 6 months especially if they all get to summer camp that first year. My TG is the most valuable person in the troop for promoting and establishing the patrol-method from an early age on and my Instructors are plenty busy with the T-FC NSP. With a new troop and no older TG, my boys struggle a lot, but they are figuring it out as they go and there's no "that's not the way we do things around here" mentality, they are making up the rules as they go along and it's rather impressive. And because they don't have an option they are all a NSP. They do ask me a lot of questions, all of which I answer as I support them in their struggles. I know of no literature from BSA that explains how to start a new troop with nothing but Webelos boys. Two years from now these boys will know more about scouting than most 13 year olds because they have taught themselves to be successful.

So just going with White-tailed Deer isn't good enough? And by the way, why do you Texans get your own White-tailed deer and we in Wisconsin don't? Sounds a little snooty if you ask me. Or is it the Texan White-tailed deer actually shoot back?

Well, I don't have any moose running through my backyard, so I'm going to have to just settle for Bambi. Although Thumper is a pretty good meal in and of itself too. I may not know their Latin names, but I do know their real names.

My kids were coming over for dinner just after I got married to my most recent wives. She had taken it out of the freezer and asked how I wanted it done. I looked at it and said, "It has prime rib written all over it." I pointed to it and said, "My piece there in the middle says 137 degrees, medium rare." Along with all the fixin's that's exactly what I got. Thought I had died and gone to heaven. I told her it was the best game dinner I had ever had, she looked at me and said, "I guess you haven't ever had moose." By the way venison can be defined as the meat of any game animal. For those who are trying to get rank advancement for identifying animals, you may wish to be a bit more specific than just "venison".

I put a bird feeder outside my house when my kids were little. It was close enough that we could watch out the kitchen window. My kids got bored really quickly in that only "sparrows" showed up. I was really bummed out until I began to look closely, An English sparrow looks nothing like a field sparrow which in turn looks nothing like a barn sparrow, etc.I got out my bird book and the kids and I got a ton of enjoyment out of that stupid feeder. My kids can all identify 10 different sparrows in a heartbeat. But, remember, we didn't start out that way. At first they were all just sparrows. It's the same with the boys. Baby steps at first and then move on to the good stuff. But one has to help the boys through the first steps or there isn't going to be any more if they get bummed out. My wife is a Master Gardener and loves the different plants. We were out in Yellowstone in late summer a couple years back, she bought a book on the Flowers of Yellowstone and promptly set out to find everyone in the dang book. We had stopped along side a road and were out in a huge mountain meadow surrounded by a myriad of colors from probably just about everything in the book. She ran around like a 5 year old in "Toys R Us". It was really something to see. A car came along and stopped and asked what it was that we had seen that was interesting enough to stop and go out into the field to get a closer look. I didn't know what to say and was a bit embarrassed. But the Mrs. yells out, "Flowers! Flowers, hundreds and hundreds of flowers!" Duh, how could they even ask! Well, they got out and came over and wanted her to point out some to them, too. We spent at least an hour with our new friends from North Carolina. Ya gotta get them outta the car and into the field. 2nd Class requirement just gets them outta the car.

Are the fleas in the flea circus wild animals? I'm not to sure about the lions and tigers, but the horses and elephants are domesticated. The clowns can go either way. Am I making myself clear?

When I was in an adult-led troop, the first meeting of the month was a leader planning meeting which basically accomplished nothing because it was open to everyone to attend. Just a free-for-all thing just to say they had a meeting. In my second troop where I was SM and used the patrol-method, we had only one patrol to start, No PLC needed. Then we added a second patrol, the two PL's coordinated everything over the phone. No PLC needed. When we got to three patrols, the PL's came in a little early when they deemed it necessary to have all three sit and talk. Now I'm back to one patrol, No PLC needed.

@@scoutldr "You should have advised him that if that's all it meant to him and his son, he could just buy an Eagle badge on Ebay and skip all the character-building crap." Well said, don't you think gentlemen?

Gee, maybe you should have been a bit more adult heavy handed and this wouldn't have happened. In the long run, I've found I have had far less hassles with the set up you describe. If this is what the boys want, this is what the boys get.

No I didn't. I lost one boy due to moving out the area, but he's back and the boys are on his case about coming back to the unit. Second boy comes and goes irregularly because he struggles with school. If his homework isn't done he doesn't come. I have had only 1 boy quit. He found out how much work it was going to be and being an only child with a mother that did everything for him, he decided it was more comfortable at home. He didn't want to be in scouts in the first place, but his mother thought it would help him mature a bit more than he had. She was more upset about him quitting than anyone else. On the other hand the new Webelos boy we took on this spring has been working with the patrol on a number of different advancements, tent inspections, flag ceremonies, etc. just like all the rest of the boys. He's really a dedicated kid. Comes from a broken home. Dad lives in town, he lives with his mom 45 miles away. He's there every week. So I have pretty much a pretty good average of retention in my unit and I know it's not the program or the way we run boy-led, patrol-method that is causing boys to leave, back off on attendance or whatever.

So you can then deduce from this that one of the reasons OA isn't well supported anymore is because as an honor society dedicated to service, it's too snooty? After all when it comes to the sports team, no one really wants to be on the A-Team for fear of being snooty. It is interesting that the boys do hang out after lights out as a group or patrol should. That doesn't seem to be snooty.....? Love the word snooty... One of the observations I have made over the years is when one forms a honors/venture patrol, the boys have to actually roll up their sleeves and go to work instead of lording it over the younger boys they badger into doing for them. Mixed patrols definitely have pecking orders quickly established even when adults stir the pot ever 6 months or so. Remove the patrol method and one immediately removes all expectations for the older boys. Sure, the adults have expectations, but the boys don't, the younger boys will pick up the heavy lifting and we've paid our dues so we don't have to work so hard. Now the adults come down heavy and the cycle is complete, no patrols, and the adults running the show. Without constant cultivation of the patrol method, this is the inevitable spiral that will happen. Every time I hear about the older boys not doing anything, not helping the younger boys, not really doing anything to earn their POR rank advancement, etc. from a SM, I always bite my tongue and just smile. "It's because you have trained your boys to be that way!" is screaming silently in the back of my head.

It would seem that way back in basic high school biology we were taught there are 2 kingdoms, one plant one animal. We have two requirements pertaining to identifications, one plant and one animal. It is too much to assume that the average person would find this a difficult concept to grasp?

And when it comes right down to the details, I was cleaning up a brush pile a couple of days back and exposed two "snakes", 4' long and brown/black pattern on their backs. Well they didn't have triangular shaped heads (very oval) and their tails came to a pointy end. Good enough for me. Scooped them up and tossed them into the bushes. And that's what 30+ years of scouting will get ya! I may not have been able to identify the snake, but I was able to identify what it was NOT, and that was all that mattered at that point.

Okay, half-full drink of water, here's the half-empty alternative. Here we are trying to deal with the difficulties and problems associated with running a scout unit in the 21st Century and the only thing we can all agree on is squirt guns? How sad!

Like a scout in the NSP, he may not even know the alternatives at first, but maybe your son is destined to turn his troop into a more idealized patrol-method troop down the road. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. If it is broke, don't stand around waiting for someone to come along and fix it, fix it yourself. (Lesson #1 in leadership, take some responsibility for making it better.)

If I have mentally challenged scouts in my unit, yes, Bird, Snake and Worm would be plenty and maybe bug wouldn't count but butterfly, bee and ant would do very nicely. One has to remember we aren't talking college students here, we're talking 11 year old boys. Expecting species and genus is way over the top on what the requirement expects.

If pointing a gun is an inappropriate and unkind activity to be involved in, (aim at a human shaped target is rather unkind to that target I suppose), then wouldn't any activity that involved conflict be in appropriate as well? After all capturing the Flag and taking prisoners is rather embarrassing when you lose. We need to outlaw Capture the Flag from all Scout activities. Who's with me on this? We need to get a petition off to National today! We need to change the name of scouting too, it implies military style spying on an enemy which can't be shot at anyway. Troop, patrol, are more terms that need to go. Just how far out in space is Irving going to go before it realizes how totally destructive it is to it's own program?