Stosh

When we had our Civil War camporee, I dragged out all my CW items and after the competition I held an in promptu demonstration and discussion on the life of the CW soldier. They were quite impressed that I was camping as a CW soldier for the weekend instead of using modern equipment.After 2+ hours the boys were upset when the "powers that be", i.e. adults in the units came over and broke up the session and made the boys go back to camp to start making supper. A few years back I set up a safety range and had the boys get a chance to fire a .58 caliber 1863 Enfield rifle-musket. That event took up the whole of Saturday afternoon. I have attended camporees that had the Young Eagles program come in, do ground-school and then take the boys for a flight thus earning their Aviation MB over the weekend. I have attended camporees where they were held at a historical site and groups like Rendezvous re-enactors came in and set up stations on tomahawk/knife throwing, flint/steel fire starting, campfire cooking, etc. Civil War re-enactors will do the same thing. I used to do it every year for a handful of local schools in the area. If one were to ask any of these types of groups to come in and do a "school presentation" for the boys, most of the good groups would jump at the chance.

Ahhhh, ya drank the Koolaid didn' cha. Now you, too, are out of touch with this brave new world we live in where adults run the show and kids stay kids until they are well into their 30's if not 40's. Ya gotta change with the times ya know, adapt, be flexible, get with the program. This is why us old timers are convinced that we really aren't leaving Scouts, Scouts left us along the way. There's a reason for the change and it's the reason why the old timers are totally convinced that as a dying breed, we were fortunate enough to have lived while Scouting was at it's prime in it's Golden Age of the 50's and 60's. 50 years from now I wonder if boys will think as fondly of Scouting as my generation. "Do not go gentle into that good night" and "Rage, rage against the dying of the light". - Dylan Thomas

Hey @David CO, we totally agree on something.

It sounds as if someone needs to sit down and have a heart-to-heart talk about what it's going to take to make it happen or not. If Sonny is not interested in scouts, what is he interested in? If he's unsure about Scouts, what's it going to take to tip the scales one way or the other. If it's okay but boring, what are the ideas necessary to make it more exciting then. One needs to articulate the problem so one know what it is that one is dealing with. When Sonny says Scouts is boring, that really doesn't identify what the problem might be. He's being vague. So press on: What's boring about it. Sonny: I dunno. Yep, that clarifies it totally. Until one gets a handle on the problem, it can't be solved.

Maybe it's time to start having the boys plan the camporees instead of the adults. I hear little or no discussion about how scouts are involved in their camporees. Adults plan them, adults run them and then the adults scratch their heads as to why no scouts or units as a whole are showing up. ASK THE BOYS what they want out of the event. That for me is what scouting is all about. If the adults are planning and running camporees, it is their fault if no one shows up. This is why I always put the boys first. It's a learning process and if something goes awry, it's never the adults taking the heat. The more the adults get involved the less the boys have an opportunity to grow and develop their ideas for what scouting is supposed to be. As district camping chairperson, it's not up to you to make it happen, it's up to you to assist the boys to make it happen. This is their program, get their input. Set a date 2 months before the next camporee, gather up all the PL's in the district at a meeting centrally located and hold a district PLC meeting to find out what their boys want. If no one shows up, it will tell you 1) how important the camporees are to the boys, 2) how much work you're going to have to put in on this effort and 3) whether or not district camping chairperson is a feasible position in your district. If the boys do show up, LISTEN to what they have to say, take notes, and let them have free rein with the process. If the ideas are dumb, so what, it's THEIR ideas that count. Instead of sled races, they want to ice fish. Go for it. Instead of competitions, they want to do an Iron Chef competition. Go for it. They want to do a pioneering project. Sounds fine with me. What it boils down to is I don't know what the boys want to really do, and no one else does except the boys. Start with them, go with them, end with them. It's their program. Okay with the suggestions: The boys want to do first aid? Great, Saturday morning they get a first aid demonstration from a Red Cross instructor or an off-duty paramedic, have lunch and then the local hospital's med-flight makes an appearance along with one of the local ambulances for tours. Just because the boys want a program, doesn't mean the adults can't spice it up a bit.

Or.... have 3 groups each lead by the weaker leaders and the 4th leader mentoring them so that the program as a whole gets help. Otherwise one is destining the smaller group to fail even faster.

I have noticed that the single program emphasis on a topic relevant to the scouts does draw more units than the round-robin competition camporees. Of course the verbiage is important. A scout will quickly see through an feeble attempt at this when one comes up with a Zombie knot tying, Zombie first aid, Zombie, fire-starting competition. I like the idea of a single topic outing, kayaking/canoeing, orienteering, etc. type of approach. We had a half-way approach a few years back, Civil War weekend. All the patrols were given numbers. Numbers were drawn out of a hat to divide into North and South. Then the skills competition was held and totaled not by patrol or unit, but by North and South. It quickly dispelled the ringer patrol method of winning the competition. When each side was tallied up, the South had won. They then had a run off and the South won again, then a best of 2 out of 3, South won, 3 out of 5, and finally the North won 4 out of 9. The interesting thing was my single patrol troop of new boys ended up on the South and they were really happy with the way things went. There are ways of sprucing up the camporees, but it takes a bit of thinking outside the box and a lot more planning than showing up at the last minute and throwing something together Friday night at the cracker barrel.

With three MB's on Citizenship, one would think the BSA could come up with a fair and equitable way of doing a poll of the people they are serving. However, there are many different ways of extending the power in our American system. Individual votes, unit votes (delegate selection) and of course the representative votes of the different councils (electoral college). And when all the dust as settled and the smoke cleared, what does the consensus have in terms of decision power? Absolutely nothing. Those that hold ultimate authority make the final decisions no matter what any one vote might represent. Taking a poll and finding out that 77% of the people want one way on a decision does not make the final decision go that way. A poll doesn't do anything other than give an indication of what the people say they want, never does it mean it's going to get it. There seems to be a major disconnect between voting and taking a poll. It's apples and oranges, nothing more than that. The BSA is not a democracy, it is a non-profit business. It answers to a board of directors, not the membership of the customer base. The only voting the board is concerned about is the voting with one's feet.

As a psychology major in college, I was taught all about polls on how they can be a useful tool and a persuasive "weapon" used to promote a certain agenda. All one need do is to evaluate the questions being asked and it becomes obvious which is which. With that being said, one can look at the timeline of history and compare it to the societal changes occurring and deduce the problem a bit more objectively. 1910-1950's the BSA program generally showed steady growth and support from the society it existed in. In the 1960's there were three major factors contributing to the knee jerk reaction of the BSA powers to be. 1) the Vietnam War and the perception that along with the unpopular war, the anti-military factors accused the BSA of being a militant style program. In fact, with BP modeling Scouting after his military experiences during the Boer War, the opponents had a pretty good case for it. Let's change the uniform and all will be well. Well, that wasn't enough. 2) the Feminist Movement took it's toll, females could do anything as well or better than any male. This made maleness obsolete and unless males made major changes, they were going to become obsolete. BSA opened the doors to women in the 1970's to accommodate this issue and put itself on the slippery slope we are on today. Exploring was first, it was a dying program anyway, so let's spruce it up with a co-ed career emphasis. That didn't work very well, so we take the marketing approach emphasis and split the hobbies from the careers and open the door to Learning for Life and Venturing. General Interest posts of Exploring became High Adventure of Venturing. Change the name and maybe it will work better. Then add STEM (which has very little to do with the original programming of BSA, but does open the door for more females in the traditional world of males. and 3) Civil Rights Movement. Sure BSA got on the bandwagon with this as it should have. But the general stereotype of the Black population was set in an urban culture, not the outdoors program of the BSA. Sure a few jumped in, but the case can still be made that even though Scouting is world-wide, encompassing multi-cultural and multi-racial populations, in America it is generally a white-dominated program. So, with those factors impacting the American program, why would anyone think that the once prestigious program of an all white, male, militaristic program being offered was not going to take a hit in the 1970's? Well, the changes were going to occur and instead of working with the core emphasis of the program, the game changed to societal dictations to set the agenda. So what is the market today? Go to the mall and see what's being marketed to today's generation? Sure we have Campmor, Gander Mountain (now in new hands after bankruptcy), REI, Cabelas, Pro Bass Shops, etc. but they aren't the anchor stores in the mall. They aren't the littler shops either. BSA is not what people are buying and instead of focusing in on a particular market niche, BSA has kept the approach to sell to the whole world whether they want it or not. Even if BSA were to poll the marketplace, what would they find that would be tolerable to the program? Grunge wear, electronics, gaming, athletics, and anything else this generation is interested in. Do you think BSA is really interested in finding out what today's youth really want or are they trying to second-guess the market. Doing a genuine poll, would produce results they would not like and I'm afraid that's the dilemma BSA doesn't want to face. So they will continue to poke and play with the market until they lose everything of value to the program. Instead of worrying about those they have and provide program for them, they have focused their attention on the non-members, trying to lure in new members who really aren't all that interested in the program in the first place. The day-care approach of Lions and Tigers begins to wear thin over time and once one gets to Webelos, they are either burned out or are interested in other things besides solitude, bugs and growing up. Now, do a genuine poll and start something altogether different than Boy Scouts of America, because that's not what people today really want. They might be intrigued by the historical prestige of the Eagle as the epitome of honor, leadership and manhood, but now even that is gone. So what's really left?

Welcome to the forum, it's good to see you jumping in. Kids at this age are rather resilient, they forgive easily and are there to have fun. It would seem you are taking the job too seriously. Relax, enjoy the boys and don't worry about things, they don't. The more anxious you are, the more the boys will sense it. Just take care of your boys and make sure you have fun too. I have found that at that age, you really can do no wrong unless you are trying. I will counter the one suggestion about chairs and tables. Forget it. Sit in a circle on the floor. Always start out with a game for 10 minutes. It burns their energy and gives you some time to relax and enjoy the fun with them before sitting down.

Welcome to the forum! I would deal with it as I do with my Boy Scout troop. We need two dens, put all the boys in a room by themselves and have them divide themselves equally into two groups. This way if someone is going to get flack, it ain't gonna be any adult. It's remarkable how little drama a scout leader gets when there isn't any reason to blame them.

I wear a multi-pocket vest. All the weight may be on my shoulders, but I don't worry about my pants falling down.

For those who wish to view the progression of scouting, one has to go back and look at the whole picture. Generally speaking the first 50 years of scouting, the program grew into a powerhouse boy's program. The second 50 years? Well, let's just leave it at that. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Welcome to the forum. Wade in as you are able.

Two things must happen before my boys go to Camporees. 1) they have to offer one. 2) the program has to be interesting. So far between the two, my troop generally doesn't do Camporees or other council promoted outings. They prefer to do their own thing.

Ever check to see what the GS/USA unit gets as a cut of cookie sales? Money is the only thing these people know, program be damned.

My Mom used to say, "It's a lot of fun until someone gets hurt." If one is going to break the rules, they had better have a good umbrella policy backing them up, because BSA isn't going to. I carry $1,000,000 and wonder if that's enough.

My son left scouting back in the mid 1990's. I have enjoyed working with the boys since. Now that the program is no longer what I signed up for, transitioning out is going to be easy. I've paid my dues for 45+ years. Time to find something with a lot less drama.

This problem is easily solved, @ItsBrian. All you need do is use your condescending, baby-talk, mommy voice so they won't be offended.

@mashmaster There is one thing that I always teach my aspiring young leaders when it comes to discipline. "You can't change them, but you can change you." As a SM, CA or Youth Group leader, etc one always will need to face disciplinary issues at one time or another. How well one handles that varies from one person to the next. Young people don't always fare very well at first, but once they figure it out, it generally runs pretty smoothly. I have had, over the years, many different kids under my care and no two are alike. I had, for example, one boy in my church Sunday School class that came up with the reputation as "a handful" from all the teachers that had had him in class. I got the dire warning that it was now "MY TURN" to have him. Well, I walked into class and it was rather rowdy the first day. I spoke gently and calmly that everyone needed to find a place to sit around the table. Yep, no one wanted to sit next to the "troublemaker", so I did. No big scene, just sat down and started the lesson. Every time he started to disrupt, I just reached over and touched his arm and he quieted down and I never broke stride in what I was doing. This continued throughout the hour. After class was over, the boy hung around as if he wanted to talk to me and I asked him if I could help him with something. He said, I was going to be a good teacher and he was going to be a good student for me. He gave me no problems in class ever. I couldn't change him, but I could change me. Yes, I catered my teaching accordingly to accommodate his behavior. I never acknowledged his disrespectful behavior and he got no negative reinforcement for it either. What leadership entails many times is knowing what one's boys need at any particular moment. How one takes care of their boys is what sets apart task managers and great leaders. Teaching this to others has kept the discipline problems in my youth groups to a minimum. It's a powerful tool, if one knows how to use it properly.

My mother had this problem of jumping into the water, too. She could swim in water over her head using the side-stroke only. Technically she was not a swimmer, but would go out to the middle of the lake on the diving platform where everyone else was anyway. This is how it goes. Close your eyes before attempting each step. Hold arms straight out to the side, palms down, and when you hit the water, paddle them downward to minimize the depth. 1) sit on the top rung of the ladder and then slip into the water. 2) sit on the dock and then slip into the water. 3) sit on a life jacket on the dock and then slip into the water. 4) squat on the dock and then slip into the water. 5) crouch on the dock and then step off the dock into the water. 6) stand up straight, bend the knees and then step off the dock into the water. 7) stand up straight, then step off the dock into the water. Master each step before moving on to the next one. If one does well with the "step off the dock" legs will be ready for a scissors kick and with the extended arms paddling downward, the boy should just about enter the water without getting his face/head much under the water. From there a simple side stroke should suffice for the rest of the test, a float at the end and you're done. Too many boys think it's a race...it's not. There is no time limit to the test.

Just remember the newer machines have plastic casings, and nylon gears. If one is going to sew patches, go with the leather/heavy duty needles and older metal geared machines. My machine is an all metal "Universal" machine from the 1950's. Works like a charm but still needs the heavy duty needles. If one is looking to do it right, get a machine quilting free-motion (darning) feature (special foot attachment). One does not need to turn the shirt or sash to do the job. I have all these things, but none of them do as good a job as a careful hand-sewing.

One of my former troops had land around it that the boys were allowed to camp anytime they wished. Of course with double railroad tracks with a crossing 40' away, they never did use it. The train whistles were spaced apart every 15-30 minutes or so kept the boys further into the woods.

Welcome and thanks for quit lurking.

Over the years there have been many situations I have found myself in as participant and/or adult supervisor that there were many times the boundaries were crossed. Did I take church groups camping? Yep. Did I take community based youth groups dirt-biking? Yep. Did I ever participate in no-adult supervised overnight experiences before I turned 15 years old? Yep. Was I hunting alone before I was 16? Yep. Did I participate in Laser Tag? Nope, we called it Flashlight Capture the Flag at night. Does anyone today know what a Stake Raid is? The members of my patrol and I would camp, hunt and fish, but it was not a scouting activity. We did it as a neighborhood gang. And yes, we played Mumble Dee Peg, often times will fixed blade knives. Oh, and by the way, a moonlight cruise in a canoe is illegal in my state without the proper lights on the water craft.