Stosh

If she's such a God-fearing woman, I would remind her that it wasn't God talking and divining the future is a sin. I would suggest she apologize to the ASM and seek professional help.

The one boy that didn't pass didn't do the stay overnight in the shelter he was to make. That was on the night before end of camp. We never saw it coming. PL came back to camp and spent the night with him (buddy system and take care of your boys) After summer camp the PL found a counselor and finished up the MB. The boy that didn't pass has since dropped scouts and it was for far more reasons than just the MB.

My boys have all agreed to just 3 adult made rules. 1) Safety First! 2) Look and act like a Scout. 3) Have fun. They don't have "Lord of the Flies" freedom to do whatever they want.

So then which of the options is causing good and what is causing bad for BSA? It isn't a male issue or a female issue. What we did as kids would have us all trumped up on prescription meds to "calm us down" in today's world. They finally realized that wasn't the best course of action in the nursing homes for the elderly, but now they are taking a second look at the youth. Who's taking care of the kids? Latch key kids, after school programs, sports because school then runs 'til after work hours, playoffs are on Sundays because most people don't work at that time., school lunch now includes breakfast and supper. When I was a kid I remember the horror stories of how the Communists in Russia used to take kids from their parents and raise them in government educational facilities. Today in America we have other people raising our kids and we do it voluntarily. Is BSA one of those babysitting programs that plug up one night a week and a few weekends along the way?

The issue is choices are to be made, are those choices coming from the boys or the adults? Are the boys being restricted from opportunities by adult rules? SM's and MB counselors can make up all the rules they want and I have no problem with that as long as I can find a MB counselor that will allow a boy to make his own choices, I'm good. I was kinda concerned that all my first year boys (none yet Tenderfoot) all wanted to take Wilderness Survival as a patrol. Well all but one passed. So what footing do I have to suggest to the next group of new boys if they want to do the same thing?

@@Rick_in_CA I guess I needed to clarify a bit better on the functionality of women and my comments not being aimed at judgment or blame which seems to be the reaction to the comments. Okay let's face it. Evolution, ( thought I toss that one in there) has resulted in males and females. In certain respects they are equal and in other respects not. If one doesn't know what I'm talking about, refer back to Biology 101. With that being said, the female of most species is responsible for the welfare and protection of the young they bear. If one has a hard time getting their mind around that, piss off a she-bear by messing with her cub and see what happens. They are vicious and can handle their own and in many cases run off the males of the species trying to harm the offspring. So If mamma ain't happy, nobody's happy. On the other hand the males of the species tend to protect and provide for the female whose focus is on the up-briiging of the young. So if one sees the dynamics of the 50's and 60's that's a fairly generalized stereotyped "family grouping". Moms stayed home and dads went to work. Well things began to change. Well society changed for the better and women went into the work force leaving others to tend to the children. Double income allows for such a social shift, thus "improving" and moving towards the good new days of the future. Again, this is merely a subject observation, not a judgment. With the independence brought on by the release from child rearing, females can now conclude there is no need for the males beyond breeding purposes. Divorce is rampant because the reliance of dependence necessary to maintain the good-old-days structure is no longer there and thus monogamy is no longer necessary. The complicated "family structures" that youth today live with is confusing for adults let alone some kid who's relying on adults to tend to them just aren't as readily identifiable as they once were in the not-so-good-old-days. By the time I graduated high school in the late 60's I knew of one divorced couple. 50 years later? Try and find one who isn't. Again a movement away from the not-so-good-old-days. Throughout the past 50 years health concerns have improved to the point where people live longer than ever before, most outliving the life span of their parents. Since the year 2000, that trend has reversed and children born after 2000 are not expected to outlive the life expectancy of their parents. So this is an improvement over the not-so-good-good-old-days. Yes, certain areas of abuse and degradation towards others has gotten better. but the trends still are there. Unwed mothers are no longer spirited away to give birth in private. Instead the issue is "taken care" of an no one need know. Including the father. In a divorce situation, what is the percentage of times the fathers are given full custody vs. the mothers given full custody and then tell me where the equality of the good-new-days is focused? Definitions of honor, respect, honesty, etc. have all changed for the better? Today we can't even find a definition of one's role in society, let alone live up to it's expectations. Of course the equal rights movement and all the riots and problems that resulted in and the new legislation has all but erase racism over the past 50 years. Right Fergeson? Baleimore? ??? BSA along with a always changing environment seems to be out of step with "reality" Well. maybe there are places where definitions are clear roles clarified, and a sense of security in it all still holds sway. Those sanctuaries are few and far between and BSA isn't one of them. As far as the bullying, pecking order comment. As a 4' 11" 97# freshman in high school when it came to choosing up sides. I knew where I stood in the pecking order. It was never an issue of getting picked it was always an issue of who's going to get stuck with me on their team. I ended up in the long run far better off than those that got picked ahead of me. Life works itself out. Again, I'm not trying to be judgmental, just observing the lack of definition and how people are trying to adapt to the unknown. Scouting is no exception to this problem.

@@Horizon No, I don't want to blame women, but there is a woman's connection to the reason why I put this post out there. My daughter is the one who has brought up many of these points as has my wife in our discussions. Daughter is seriously looking and already inquiring about the American Heritage Girl program for her daughter. My wife, an avid outdoors person has commented many times that the only way I really get an adventure is when the two of us go, She has been on scout activities and says that her daughters know more about camping and such than the older boys in the troop. Her daughters have done the Alaskan commercial fishing, crabbing and such and pretty much figure that she has a pretty good handle on what adventure is really all about. And really? Blame the women? The groups my wife and daughters hang out with tend to be Master Gardeners, and kayaking/canoeing groups. Mostly these groups are made up of women some as old as 72 years of age as far as activity is concerned have outings as frequent as 2-3 times a week. My boys do really well at once a month. And yes my wife is employed full time. So there are plenty of women out there that are more adventurous than the program BSA has to offer. So where is the problem with women? Nope, but with the program that draws kids in with arts and crafts activities and progress with their boys through their childhood until they end up with arts and crafts eagle scouts. Like I said the post was not judgmental, just observations from one who has been around for 50 years and seen many changes that have reduced the BSA from a powerhouse program to a generic youth entertainment program that still attempts to garner some sort of credibility based on past experiences that they didn't experience.

When I took life saving as a class, I had to rescue a person bigger than I was in order to pass the course. EVERYONE in the class was bigger than I was except for one girl. The victim was not allowed to make it easy. The guy the assigned to me was a jerk and I knew it. I swam out to him and surface dove as I was taught to come up behind him. He knew the technique and immediately turned around after I went under. I watched him do so from below and so I still came up behind him. Threw a choke hold on him, jammed both knees into his back as hard as I could to level him off and yelled at him to relax, I had him. released the choke hold and swam him to shore. So waiting would not have benefited, simply knowing the technique is what is important. By the way, we don't always get to choose smaller victims to rescue in real life, and a large man hyped up on Adrenalin is going to be stronger than 99% of the rescuers.

@@moosetracker That is a bit far fetched to say the least. If one is going to teach life saving techniques all the person would need to do is be able to meet the BSA swimmer's requirement. If I remember correctly, the whole process of techniques is far different for swimming than for life saving. A swimmer jumps into the water feet first then does the variety of prescribed strokes to maximize the effectiveness of swimming. That is the goal. But in life saving the goal is different and thus all the techniques are different. One needs to keep an eye on the person in distress at all times and if that person goes under water, the spot where they went under. That means jumping AND DIVING into the water so as to not have your head go below the surface of the water and thus lose visual contact with the distressed person. They they are to swim to that person keeping visual contact, not swim efficiency. Of course that is the last resort. One is to consider multiple rescues techniques which DO NOT INVOLVE swimming at all, rope/bouy toss, boats/canoe rescues, first. If that isn't available, swim out and present a flotation device to the person, paddle board, PFD, etc.. Then if that is not available, swim a rope out and encircle the person to be pulled in. As a last resort, physical contact rescue from behind technique. So, what in the Swimming MB is necessary for life saving techniques that probably going to have to be retaught differently anyway? So yes, I would probably accept a FC swimmer into the Life Saving MB. And It doesn't make one bit of difference what the MB is, the counselors ALL have the option to deciding who can and cannot take the MB under their instruction. That goes for 11 year old welders, shotgun shooters, wilderness survivalists, etc. If a scout is really into camping it is not any stretch of the imagination that an 11 year old can't finish the Camping MB before they turn 12 years of age. Arbitrary age restrictions are rather adult oriented contrivance anyway which calls them into question in a program that is supposed to be boy run,led, and decide in the first place. I know you're 16 years old, but you only weigh 135#'s so you'll never pass the CPR part of First Aid. Well, people I was 135# when I graduated from high school at age 18. I started high school at age 14 weighing 97#'s. Some boys were heavy into their Eagle projects at that age and I wouldn't be able to do First Aid MB? How stupid is that?

I've been thinking on this for sometime now and was trying to come up with a politically correct way of putting it out there on the forum, when I realized that was the problem. As a history buff I spend a lot of time putting together the pieces and finding trends in issues that we face today as a society and Boy Scouting is no different. Here's the problem as I see it and just maybe the moderators will allow this threat some time to allow everyone a say so in it. It is "as I see it" and no judgments implied. In the original Boy Scouts of America handbook it talked about knighthood and chivalry, the male mystique, so to speak, the knights in shining armor stepping up and boldly defending what needed to be defended, saving damsels and slaying the occasional dragon. It evoked challenges, it evoked danger and adventure, it encouraged young to take it up a level and meet and be prepared to face whatever comes his way. Brave was a valid and tangible Law at that time. Well it got along pretty well the first half of it's existence, but now in the second half, say 1960's and beyond has it morphed into an emasculated shadow of its former self? When climbing a tree a youth was encouraged by Dad to see how high they could climb, but cautioned by Mom to be careful. Well, moms have been wining out. Now it may be deduced that the adventure is contrived and almost impossible to provide, STEM is not an adventure. Equality for all has been the goal to the point where BSA has had to forego much of what made it historically important to young males in the first place. There are no damsels in distress any more and you will be chastised if one were so much as hold the door for this damsel even with her hands full, In the 1960's male dominated societies like the military and police forces were likened to Baby Killers and Pigs. Now that they have been integrated with sufficient estrogen, they are Heroes once again. Has the message been heard? Aggression has been forbidden, bullying and pack dominance has been outlawed, boys that show signs of such behavior are drugged with appropriate prescriptions so that they are docile enough to sit and be quiet. Make a gesture with one's hand in a threatening way, such as pointing with the thumb up, and it will earn you a zero tolerance response to this male posturing of a few days in social and educational solitary confinement. Heaven forbid if anyone were to chew their PopTart into the shape indicative of a lethal weapon. The All-Male societies are forbidden and are cast into suspicion and this social pressure over the years have forced those once important institutions to emasculate effectiveness to the point where they are becoming obsolete if not outright outlawed. (Yes, outlawed, out-side the law of equality where effective female demands can be maintained from within that organization). Such emasculation started with the extension of estrogen into the whole essence of the program. Den Mothers dominated the early years of the young boy's. Dens, indicative of the home environment, were of course controlled by the nurturing provided by the female in society. But as the young men grew older, the social patterning is replaced for boys with the influence of the male role in society. But now the protector, the defender, the provider, etc.are now replaced with the extension of the Den Mother into the role of ScoutMaster and the process doesn't change. We complain about Webelos III, but never honest enough to accept it as a process we have created. The Exploring Program which was once the epitome of the male experience in scouting went co-ed both with the members as well as the leadership. There is nothing uniquely male about it's make-up anymore. The movement is to do the same for Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts. We cannot allow boys to be boys anymore. Now that the Male/Female pattering of society is almost completely broken down, one begins to wonder with multiple female parenting (double Den Mothers) and effeminate males that the imprinting will only progress more along the lines it has for the past 50 years, removing maleness even further. Of course this posting will be perceived as inflammatory on many levels because it asks the question as to how these social changes impact a once bastion of American society. I'm sure there are many other there that will be first to comment and chastise for mentioning out-loud many of these "hidden" taboos we have come to embrace and protect with numerous zero tolerance, politically correct conversation. If one were to read carefully these comments, there is no attempt made to be judgmental or to draw any conclusions on this subject, but merely observations from a historical perspective that living the last 50 years as an adult has garnered. I'm not going to be around for the next 50 years so where BSA is heading is of very little consequences for me, but my children and grandchildren will be effected so I do harbor an interest in knowing where the program is headed. I have also resisted attempts over the years to have my consciousness raised to an intolerant level so as to become militantly opposed to new ideas for old concepts. I don't do lock-step very well, and I don't do re-writing history very well so as to fit it into our modern propaganda. How emasculated has Boy Scouts of America become over the past 50 years? What's in store for it in the next 50 years? Will it end up an outdoor Girl Scout Program (vs. GSUSA which is more of a political campaign to promote the female dominance of society---not my words, my daughter's who is a Gold Level Girl Scout) that is open to boys? That should get the ball rolling and as some of our new forum members have pointed out, this forum does tend to be a bit more thoughtful and introspective than other forums that do nothing but rant and rave with no valid purpose. As request of the moderators.... Please keep the conversation civil and polite as one would expect a moderator to do, but if this thread seems to wander or take on multiple tangents, please allow it some latitude because I am genuinely interested in where it might go and what insights it might open for us to discuss. Thanks. Stosh

I took the Red Cross swimming sessions from blowing bubbles to Life Saving as a kid. I was small but the techniques would give a person a certain a mount of "edge" in a serious situation. As I grew into adulthood, I felt more confident but now that I'm 64 years old, I would need to return to a high degree of technique to offset my loss of muscle over the years. Having the Life Saving MB does not make one a BSA certified Life Guard, but it does go a long way to assist the boys in knowing certain techniques that might be able to be used to rescue a person in trouble. It's a bit like teaching CPR to an 11-12 year old. There is no way these boys can do CPR on a 200#+ male. They simply don't have the upper body strength and weight to accomplish it effectively. Does that mean we don't teach CPR to these boys? Like Lifesaving maybe we ought to hold off on the First Aid MB until they are stronger too? Of course we teach anyway. If they know the techniques they can teach an un-certified adult in a couple of seconds enough to maybe save a life. Same for the Lifesaving MB. It has nothing to do with muscle strength.

It's not a program, it's not a regimen, it's not some pills, it's not just will power, it's a lifestyle. When I was 15 years old I could knock off a large pizza by myself. Now the Mrs. and I get two meals out of a large pizza. She has a weight problem I do not. I don't snack between meals the way she does. She has a different lifestyle than I do.

This whole subject is not about judging other scouters and their dietary problems it's about honesty towards the Oath. Like the old song used to say, "...Two outta three ain't bad." But is that an acceptable standard for the Oath?

The several camps I have attended over the years all state that the T-FC classes they teach are NOT to count as advancement for rank. It is just an opportunity for the new guys to get a feel for the kinds of activities they will need to know to operate fully in the patrol. So, do my boys attend the T-FC classes, yes, because they choose to because it's a lot more practical and fun that some of the MB's they are taking. Basketry and Wood Carving aren't going to be as practical as knots and cooking on the campfire. When they come back they take a meeting or two to have each of the boys demonstrate what they learned at the T-FC sessions and if they are proficient at it, the PL marks them as passed.

I find the biggest problem with the shift is getting all the adults on the same page. The boys tend to be more resilient than the adults. Every fiber in an adult's body works to make things successful for youth. Because of that they tend to over parent to the point where the child basically doesn't need to grow up and take responsibility for oneself. If a person spends 95% of his/her time in front of an entertaining electronic device and have the parents constantly nurturing them with food and support, why would they ever want to do anything else, or what would anyone assume that these young people were even capable of doing anything else. I had a conversation with my step-son who was excellent in school, graduated 4.0, went on to prestigious college on a scholarship and ended up with a nice job. But he confessed he's terrified of failure. His life is all planned out so that there cannot be any opportunity for failure and he was curious about how I handle the stress. I said I don't worry about it. I have failed enough times in my life that I know how to recover and become stronger. A month or two later he got a DWI (first time is a misdemeanor). One would have thought the world had come to an end. His mother asked me what we were going to do about it. I said, nothing, it's not our problem, he'll figure it out. It's too bad he had to learn at 24 years of age, what boys in my troop learn at 11 and 12 years of age. I think my advice kinda fit because he did ask his mother after a while why she didn't force him to be in scouts when he was younger. Scouting is where you go to grow up.

@@andysmom Good, at least I'm not odd man out. This is quite similar to what we do.

Gee, didn't know there was such a thing. I've been building trail now for 2 months. Maybe should have waited and had the boys do it for me as a project.

Mental note to self: @ where were you that adults from another troop were 5' away at a summer camp? The camp were we are at, I could have 4 patrols and one adult area 300' apart in our site and still not be able to see another troop. That's a week from hell in my book. Oh, for the record, 6' even 167.2 lbs. this morning. A bit up from my Philmont (2000) weight of 164.3 lbs.

3 hole punch and a loose leaf notebook holds all the breakdowns for the past 3-4 years. What totally blew the minds of my boys was they had "left overs" from a number of meals from the commissary at summer camp. Let's see, they had eggs potatoes, cheese and bacon, okay, find some wild onions and we're heavy into Mountain Man Breakfast just from leftovers. I whipped it up for the two adults and had a ton left over that the boys were invited to "try". Well, they pretty much cleaned it up. So did they pay attention? Well, they were 3 months into scouting, and my ASM told me that one of the boys got a new Dutch Oven for a b-day gift and the first thing he did was make Mountain Breakfast for the family. It had been 6 months since I demoed it, but he remembered because he wrote it down in his summer camp journal. Records are vital for making life a lot easier.

Obviously these people have never heard of RAGBRAI, the bike ride across Iowa. Every little town along the way cracks open their fire hydrants and it basically soaks the thousands of bike riders along route. They love it!

We don't have "troop" meetings designed by a PLC. We don't even have a PLC We're just starting out. In my other troop of 3 patrols, we didn't have "troop" meetings either. We have always had 100% full-time patrol-method which is the weekly gathering of patrols. Each patrol is responsible for doing what is appropriate for their memberss. The new guys work with the instructors and TG to get oriented to scouting, get a feeling of how things work and within 3 months are planning and developing their own program. They tend to want to do the advancement stuff, their call, I don't care one way or the other. Each patrol meeting is 1/2 program and 1/2 game. Multiple patrols can play a game or each patrol can play their own game, the boys decide. A lot of times the instructors will make a game out of what was just taught for advancement. Boys buddy up and have a fire building contest, etc. If done right, advancement is kinda fun, at least I would assume everyone viewed it that way. "All our scouts participate in the same activities. I don't even believe in sending younger scouts to a different summer camps" Yep, that's where we differ. All our scouts decide what they want for activities and if they decide they want to go to different summer camps, It doesn't make a bit of difference what we as adults believe, we as adults do what it takes to make the adventure happen for them. Kind of a "for the boys" attitude thingy. At least that's how my boys have decided they want to do it. Maybe 5 years from now they will rethink and do it differently. We'll be ready for them.

And that last line is why I focus more on just doing summer camp as a patrol or two of the older boys. THEY do the planning. Seriously, I'm too lazy to do that much work that the boys should be able to do for themselves.

Very funny! @ @@KenD500 Yes, I have done it a few times with the older boys. They get kinda burned out same-old, same-old summer camp experience and wish to do something a bit different. The best one we did was the traditional historic summer camp. We went up to the national forest area, found a spot on a nice lake, set up camp, build latrines, purified water, fished, swam, canoed, made some fantastic food, and just hung out for the week. The boys had a fire going all week long. Lots of discussions on future beyond high school, military, getting married, etc. Kinda like the pre-grown up stuff. I've done the same with older boys in BWCA area not using Northern Tier, just a week of camping fishing and swimming. Because we generally end up near a water source, i.e. a lake, we tend to spend a lot of time with advanced fishing techniques. Too often the activities are too planned to have much time for just hanging out with a line in the water drowning worms. Out of all my "summer camp" alternatives, I as an adult enjoyed the most because adults had a chance to share as an equal with the boys on the trek. The group was small (one patrol) and the intimacy was an opportunity to really get to know the boys. I've never done a troop-wide summer camp outside the program of a summer camp. There are too many NSP/young boy issues that they miss out on that an organized camp program provides. An older boy patrol has the skill set to pull this off quite easily.

Gotta remember, these are the people that cheer for the Vikings....

It always amazes me the extent that some people go to misinterpret, twist and take as negative things about other people's posts. Case in point this type of sniping. "Many times as we approach a significant event, summer camp, camoree, etc. the patrols generally focus on getting ready for that event," Where does it say or even assume that the younger boys don't go to summer camp, camporees, etc.? Where does it say the NSP gets left out of the focus for getting ready for that event? I would assume it's just an negative assumption snipe on someone's part. "Younger patrols generally work on advancement while the older patrols focus on more long range activities, hikes, bike hikes, treks, etc." So are we to assume the new guys have the skill set to pull off Philmont 2 years before they qualify? Or maybe they can handle a white-water canoe trip without any T-FC skills to get out and do that let alone paddle a canoe safely down a rapids.? One has to be prepared to offer up age/skill level appropriate activities. Sure a mixed patrol can do canoeing, but all the older boys will need to partner up with someone other than their buddy because the younger boys in the patrol will take forever to get the canoe across the lake. The young boys are simply ballast in the front of the canoe to keep the bow down out of the wind. Canoeing with your buddy is not an option. It's always a lot more fun to babysit the new guys that need to be dragged along than it is to hang out and do fun things with just one's buddies. Who says that a canoe can't have an anchor? But the adults in some troops insist that that is how it has to be in Scouting. Well, in that troop anyway. So what fun things do the NSP do besides advancement? Well, they learn how to go out into the woods and not be a babysitting burden on the older boys for a starter. If the troop does a lot of canoeing they might as a patrol take the canoeing MB together at summer camp for fun. Then they can maybe coordinate a canoe trip with the older boys and be able to hold their own on the trek and they'll be with their patrol buddies the way they prefer anyway. Some troops allow for this. Will the new boys ever get to Philmont? BWCA? Sea Base? Sure, but one doesn't get left behind while all the patrol members go because you're not old enough. So while the older patrols are off at Philmont this summer, we will be going to summer camp or maybe something fun, like a 50 mile canoe trip down a lazy river dong sandbar camping because we are all First Class scouts and we all took the canoeing MB last summer at summer camp. Next year when we are old enough we'll think about Philmont then. Until then we won't have to sit around waiting for our older patrol buddies to come back and regale us with all the fun things they did that we missed out on.